At what signal level would you expect near full quieting to occur?

[LeoG]

Assuming a modern radio with a .25uV sensitivity at 12dB SINAD.

 

Been looking around and I've seen 1uV (-107dBm) will produce almost full quieting and 2uV (-101dBm) should produce it.

 

[WRKC935]

Yeah, if your not getting it by -101 then somethings not right with the receiver, at least if it's of good quality.

 

[Guest]

This is the type of question that is light years past any normal gmrs person.  99% don’t know, don’t care and it really doesn’t matter.   Even when some one says full quieting what they really mean is you sound great!    In practical every day language the term full quieting doesn’t mean much.  
this type of air turns off sooo many new users because it sends them in a wild goose chase that has no real end or answer for normal folks.    Gmrs users that care this much really should move to ham and take the time and money to get the equipment to actually monitor this type of stuff. 

[marcspaz]

 

In the FM radio world, a full quieting signal typically refers to a signal strength level where the background noise is minimized to the point of providing clear, noise-free audio reception. From a human's perspective, any noise from the RF environment (like static) is eliminated.  Full quiet is often referred to as Q5.  Frankly, its subjective and many people will dispute the answer.

 

There are also opinions of what the technical values would be.  While opinions on the specific signal level varies, generally accepted technical values are 60 dBμV or higher.  This typically translates to 20-30 dB SINAD ratio.  Again... indicating good audio quality with low noise.

 

To try to translate to something a little easier to understand... 20 dB or 30 dB SINAD means the audio is 20 dB or 30 dB over the receiver's noise floor (no detectable audio).

 

This is a cool table provided by an AI search.  Per the AI results... 

Quote

The table provided was not directly sourced from a single reference but rather derived from common industry standards and practical experiences with SINAD measurements in radio and audio testing.  These standards are often cited in technical documentation for radio equipment (e.g., user manuals, datasheets for FM receivers, and two-way radio systems) and are used by manufacturers to specify the sensitivity and performance of their devices. If you want exact figures or specific standards, they are typically referenced in industry sources like the ARRL Handbook for Radio Communications, ITU recommendations, or technical papers from organizations like the IEEE.

 

 

[LeoG]

1 hour ago, Socalgmrs said:

This is the type of question that is light years past any normal gmrs person.  99% don’t know, don’t care and it really doesn’t matter.   Even when some one says full quieting what they really mean is you sound great!    In practical every day language the term full quieting doesn’t mean much.  
this type of air turns off sooo many new users because it sends them in a wild goose chase that has no real end or answer for normal folks.    Gmrs users that care this much really should move to ham and take the time and money to get the equipment to actually monitor this type of stuff. 

I am far from a new comer.  Just playing with Radio Mobile and would like to know when my signals get into the good and better range.  Trying to determine what I'll need to do with my repeater to hit certain areas (family members) without playing a lot of guessing games.

[LeoG]

34 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

 

In the FM radio world, a full quieting signal typically refers to a signal strength level where the background noise is minimized to the point of providing clear, noise-free audio reception. From a human's perspective, any noise from the RF environment (like static) is eliminated.  Full quiet is often referred to as Q5.  Frankly, its subjective and many people will dispute the answer.

 

There are also opinions of what the technical values would be.  While opinions on the specific signal level varies, generally accepted technical values are 60 dBμV or higher.  This typically translates to 20-30 dB SINAD ratio.  Again... indicating good audio quality with low noise.

 

To try to translate to something a little easier to understand... 20 dB or 30 dB SINAD means the audio is 20 dB or 30 dB over the receiver's noise floor (no detectable audio).

 

This is a cool table provided by an AI search.  Per the AI results... 

 

 

Unfortunately I don't have anything reported in SINAD.  Or at least I don't think I do.

 

[marcspaz]

35 minutes ago, LeoG said:

Unfortunately I don't have anything reported in SINAD.  Or at least I don't think I do.

 

That is a pretty neat report!  Did you have a full-quiet signal at -85 dBm? 

I attached a chart to do a quick conversion.  If you have a manual for your radio where they tell you how many uv the 12 dB SINAD is, you can simply track up the chart 18 dB and that should give you the uv value for the expected q5/full-quiet.

dBm-to-Microvolts.pdf

[LeoG]

I play around with my Wouxun XS KG20G and my TD-H3 handheld.  I believe both state 0.25uV at 12dB SINAD.  I have the Radio Mobile set at 0.318uV which is -117dBm to give me a little leeway. 

I can't say if I have full quieting at -85dBm or not as everything is theoretical right now.  But I should assume yes because that particular spot is full quieting in my truck with my MXTA26 antenna using my current setup of 13 meters high 7.2dBi antenna. 

My repeater antenna is a 13 meters with a 7.2dBi gain antenna.  Soon my antenna will be at 26 meters with a 9.8dBm antenna and I'm just playing around with certain areas plugging in data using my mobile in the truck and the HT outside of the house.

 

I had a surprising result when I was playing around from my repeater to my house.  Had the antenna at 13M, then 26M, then 61M and then 91M.  At 61M the signal was 300uV and at 91M it dropped down to 157uV.  It gained strength up to 61M and then lost when I went higher.  Just found it interesting and wondered what caused it to do something like that.

[LeoG]

So .25uV and up 18dB gives me 2uV which is what I had seen on the interweb.  So realistically anything beyond that is just gravy.

 

If you look in the upper right hand corner I named that area Full Quieting Exit 38.  It's a sweet spot of short duration at 65MPH on the highway.

[marcspaz]

Yeah, I saw that. Always fun you get a nice strong path.  Im considering putting my 2m repeater up at my house permanently. I few people helped me with testing and I got about 7.5 mi with 100% reliability and about 20 mi at the fringe (less than 50%).

[Raybestos]

It is wonderful to see the concept of full quieting discussed on a GMRS forum.  I do an eye roll every time I hear someone on a GMRS repeater tell someone else on the repeater that they are putting in a S-8 (or whatever) on the repeater. 

Ya big dummy!  That is the signal the repeater is putting on your receiver.  It has nothing to do with the power or signal from the radio of the guy you are talking with.  The best measure of the other party's signal through the repeater is "heavy white noise and barely readable", "some white noise but readable", "full quieting into the repeater", or some variant thereof.

Kudos for creating this topic!

[WRYZ926]

I hardly ever give a S number unless asked for it when on simplex but never when talking on the repeater. We had a know it all that kept giving a S number when we first put the new 2m repeater in a few weeks ago. We had to tell him that his signal report doesn't mean a thing to us as it was how he was hearing the repeater itself.

I tell new people how understandable they are and how much static I hear when they transmit. Once they have been using their radios for a while then I will start saying if they are readable or not.

@LeoG I am glad you mentioned the KG-XS20G. I found out the other day that the XS20G mic is not as hot as the KG-1000G mic. With the 100G I have to hold the mic at more of an angle so that I don't overdrive but with the XS20G I have to hold the mic parallel when I speak.

[LeoG]

When we do net check ins the net master will usually tell you with an "R" number what you sound like.  Usually the net master is close to the repeater so they are getting full quieting on the repeater and any noise coming through is from the other person into the repeater.  I bounce back and forth between and R7 and R9.  We have a few people on the fringe and they can be R3 to R7 depending on how the signal is playing that day.

One of the reasons for our nets is to assess how the radio is coming into the repeater.  We have several people that test multiple HTs during the net and it's surprising at how the different HTs come in from the same place.  Likely mostly due to the antenna it using.

But since I'm just playing theoretical radio I was wondering at what point the signal might go from somewhat noisy to somewhat clean.  Especially when in a mobile and moving.  I have 2 repeaters that do very well on the road crackle-wise because of their antenna height.  While mine is pretty low comparatively.  But mine is mostly for communication with my wife and I work in a metal building and neither of the other repeaters penetrates the building very well unless I'm right at the 1 small window in the building at which point I can get the one north of me.

[marcspaz]

8 hours ago, Raybestos said:

It is wonderful to see the concept of full quieting discussed on a GMRS forum.

 

I honestly can't tell is you are serious.  LOL

  

8 hours ago, Raybestos said:

I do an eye roll every time I hear someone on a GMRS repeater tell someone else on the repeater that they are putting in a S-8 (or whatever) on the repeater. 

 

Yeah, I giggle to myself when I hear this.  Unless I am with other radio dork friends.  Then we get a good laugh together.  Especially when I hear a guy and his wife doing tests while she is home and he is driving around, and no matter how bad he would sound into the repeater, she would keep saying "the gauge is full, but I can barely hear you.  I think the radio is broken."

  

8 hours ago, Raybestos said:

The best measure of the other party's signal through the repeater is "heavy white noise and barely readable", "some white noise but readable", "full quieting into the repeater", or some variant thereof.

 

Yeah, that is typically the way I help people.  I'll tell the stuff like Loud and Clear, A little 'pan fry' static, about 50/50 SNR, but still 100% understandable, I'm missing words, negative copy.  I figure that type of stuff is the most helpful.  And of course, that only helps if I hear the repeater Q5 myself.  If not, sometimes I just say, I'm too far from the repeater to tell for sure, but it sounds ok."

 

[LeoG]

And here I went again asking what I thought was a fairly simple question LOL

[marcspaz]

17 minutes ago, LeoG said:

And here I went again asking what I thought was a fairly simple question LOL

 

I mean... I think you asked a good question.  But, I'm a radio dork. So my opinion may be a little skewed.  LOL

[LeoG]

Playing around with it and I found on one of my repeaters it's just plain wrong.  I have the Holyoke repeater which is 21 miles away.  Using my HT which is about 4.5 watts in front of my house it's iffy but makes it in.  If I go up the hill a bit it's much better.  When I walk my route around the neighborhood no one has ever complained I was choppy.

The program is telling me at the house to the repeater which I've setup at 200' above the 250 meter mountain it's on with a 12dBi gain antenna and a RX line loss of 1.7dB.  It's telling me that I'm hitting the repeater with .31uV and when I go up the hill, which I know for a fact is a better area it says .18uV and gives me a red line which I guess means not gonna make it.  The .31uV gives me a yellow line.  Of course when I switch it to my base station with a 13 meter tall antenna and 7.2dBi gain it says the repeater receives me at 7.35uV

 

Checked on the Glastonbury repeater setup with the same specs and it gives me an 8.04uV receive at the repeater which is 17 miles away and up just about the same height.

I can talk with my son, both of us in our homes using HT to HT and it comes in pretty good.  I can't hit the Holyoke repeater inside my house using the HT so I do know it's much weaker of a signal but I'm surprised it's at .31uV and people still here me well.  I know it's not full quieting, but it's not all hissy and crackly either.  Just low to medium hiss and a very slight flutter if I'm walking.  Just surprised at the numbers from this repeater.

[SteveShannon]

2 minutes ago, LeoG said:

Playing around with it and I found on one of my repeaters it's just plain wrong.  I have the Holyoke repeater which is 21 miles away.  Using my HT which is about 4.5 watts in front of my house it's iffy but makes it in.  If I go up the hill a bit it's much better.  When I walk my route around the neighborhood no one has ever complained I was choppy.

The program is telling me at the house to the repeater which I've setup at 200' above the 250 meter mountain it's on with a 12dBi gain antenna and a RX line loss of 1.7dB.  It's telling me that I'm hitting the repeater with .31uV and when I go up the hill, which I know for a fact is a better area it says .18uV and gives me a red line which I guess means not gonna make it.  The .31uV gives me a yellow line.  Of course when I switch it to my base station with a 13 meter tall antenna and 7.2dBi gain it says the repeater receives me at 7.35uV

 

Checked on the Glastonbury repeater setup with the same specs and it gives me an 8.04uV receive at the repeater which is 17 miles away and up just about the same height.

I can talk with my son, both of us in our homes using HT to HT and it comes in pretty good.  I can't hit the Holyoke repeater inside my house using the HT so I do know it's much weaker of a signal but I'm surprised it's at .31uV and people still here me well.  I know it's not full quieting, but it's not all hissy and crackly either.  Just low to medium hiss and a very slight flutter if I'm walking.  Just surprised at the numbers from this repeater.

Modeling software is only as good as the input data, the assumptions used when writing code to do calculations, and the various databases that the software use. Reality has infinite data, your modeling software uses 200 gigabytes.  
For modeling propagation you should only consider it a general guide, never as specific as your own tests. It cannot have every vehicle, rock, tree, shrub, atmospheric moisture, or new construction and it cannot accurately predict how your exact combination of equipment will work.

[LeoG]

Oh I realize that, fully.  Usually the modeling software is much more generous with the signal than real world situations present.  I was just surprised that this went in the opposite direction.  Showing a barely viable signal when in reality the signal is usually pretty good.  I've been going in reverse using the HTs as the transmitters to my repeater and what's showing is a bit disappointing.  Hopefully real world is better.  But like I've stated, usually the programs give better results than what you find out in the field.

[LeoG]

Found this.

 

https://www.giangrandi.org/electronics/radio/smeter.shtml

 

[WRUI365]

And remember this one important thing. Not all radios are the same. Some like my Moto R7 will try to enhance the received signal with processing to make it clearer if need be. It all depends on the equipment you using at the time.

[SteveShannon]

Unfortunately, as @marcspaz helped me understand a year or more ago, the manufacturers don’t calibrate their S meters to that table.  Even the 6 db between levels isn’t very closely followed, even though 6 db between S levels is taught and tested on the ham exams. 

[LeoG]

My radio has an uncalibrated LED graph.  Asked the manufacturer if each LED meant something and in their wisdom they said they didn't think so.  When all the LEDs are lit up it's full quieting.  But anything below that is just a guess on my part.

 

Mostly looking for the µV level of quieting for use on Radio Mobile software to have a guess at what it might sound like when I'm fooling around with the program.  Again, I think about 2µV is about full quieting in UHF