Repeater Planning Series: “The Six Most Common Mistakes" [Contains Stupidity]

[intermod]

Planning a new repeater? What are the most common mistakes a new repeater owner makes? 

Below is Mistake #1.  Additional installments are forthcoming. 

Mistake #1: Using Mygmrs.com to Find a Clear Channel

You pick a channel from the Mygmrs Repeater Database having the least number of repeaters, or nothing immediately close by.  You end up causing interference (IX).  Other co-channel repeater owners (e.g., incumbents) become unhinged and pissed off.

Many existing repeaters, particularly those that have existed for decades, are not listed in Mygmrs.com. Often, these owners may not want the hassles of having multiple users, and prefer to avoid repeater kerchunker's, weak scratchy handheld radio users that are really annoying to listen to, and poorly performing radios (see Note 1 below).  Also, radio signals can travel 150+ miles with no obstructions, even portable radio signals.  There are possibly other repeaters just 50 miles away that are at a high elevation (or on a tall tower) that can hear your users just fine, causing IX.  Notice I said “your users” and not “your repeater”.  This will be discussed under Mistake #2.

(Note 1: The current trend in Cheap Chinese Radios [CCR] are models with unresolvable low transmit audio/volume, very poor quality audio [includes poor quality speaker/microphones] and improper default settings, like Roger Beeps.)

[tcp2525]

11 hours ago, intermod said:

Planning a new repeater? What are the most common mistakes a new repeater owner makes? 

Below is Mistake #1.  Additional installments are forthcoming. 

Mistake #1: Using Mygmrs.com to Find a Clear Channel

You pick a channel from the Mygmrs Repeater Database having the least number of repeaters, or nothing immediately close by.  You end up causing interference (IX).  Other co-channel repeater owners (e.g., incumbents) become unhinged and pissed off.

Many existing repeaters, particularly those that have existed for decades, are not listed in Mygmrs.com. Often, these owners may not want the hassles of having multiple users, and prefer to avoid repeater kerchunker's, weak scratchy handheld radio users that are really annoying to listen to, and poorly performing radios (see Note 1 below).  Also, radio signals can travel 150+ miles with no obstructions, even portable radio signals.  There are possibly other repeaters just 50 miles away that are at a high elevation (or on a tall tower) that can hear your users just fine, causing IX.  Notice I said “your users” and not “your repeater”.  This will be discussed under Mistake #2.

(Note 1: The current trend in Cheap Chinese Radios [CCR] are models with unresolvable low transmit audio/volume, very poor quality audio [includes poor quality speaker/microphones] and improper default settings, like Roger Beeps.)

Why would anyone be foolish enough to use a utility that is on the internet that is absolutely free and only gets updated when the crows fly upside down? This applies to all sites, not just this one. The onus is on you, not the site giving misinformation.

Only way to do it correctly is to do a site survey for a predetermined amount of time to be 98% sure you're not going to cause or receive interference.

[Raybestos]

Even the two methods above may not work at all times.  In my state, there is a clique that has maintained a GMRS repeater presence of sorts, for over a decade.  They are listed on MyGMRS.com.  For as far back as anyone I know remembers, they have been "members only".  They have always had a disclaimer to the general effect that they were not accepting new members due to concerns about potential overloading of their repeater in the event of an actual emergency.  The comical thing, is that I know people who regularly monitor their channel and have never heard any transmissions from them.  Others that have, heard very brief traffic maybe once or twice in years of monitoring.  Obviously, overloading is not a concern so why not just say, "It is our repeater and we don't want no dang outsiders on it", which is their prerogative?

Getting back on track, a while back, a guy put up another repeater with wide coverage on their operating channel.  He likely did the "listen for activity" thing and hearing none, decided to park his large, "network linked" repeater on their operating channel.  Had the guy done the right thing and left it as a stand-alone to benefit the area GMRS community, he probably would have been fine.  Instead, he piped in garbage from all around the country via some linking network and the existing, mostly silent, repeater guys had a cow.  The silent guys plus the owner of another repeater about 40 miles out were not happy and raised a stink.  This led to a frequency change of the newer networked repeater which despite claims to the contrary, is still tied to some network with regular traffic from 700+ miles away on it.  Had the new guy just left off the linked network garbage, the little bit of local traffic on the channel likely would have been tolerable to the legacy repeater guys.  The frequent obscenity, profanity, and other noise coming in through the network is likely what created the uproar.

 

[WRYZ926]

9 hours ago, Raybestos said:

Getting back on track, a while back, a guy put up another repeater with wide coverage on their operating channel.  He likely did the "listen for activity" thing and hearing none, decided to park his large, "network linked" repeater on their operating channel.  Had the guy done the right thing and left it as a stand-alone to benefit the area GMRS community, he probably would have been fine.  Instead, he piped in garbage from all around the country via some linking network and the existing, mostly silent, repeater guys had a cow.  The silent guys plus the owner of another repeater about 40 miles out were not happy and raised a stink.  This led to a frequency change of the newer networked repeater which despite claims to the contrary, is still tied to some network with regular traffic from 700+ miles away on it.  Had the new guy just left off the linked network garbage, the little bit of local traffic on the channel likely would have been tolerable to the legacy repeater guys.  The frequent obscenity, profanity, and other noise coming in through the network is likely what created the uproar.

It's a shame that happened like that. We decided right away not to even consider linking our GMRS repeater. We already have our 2m repeater linked to AllStar.

We don't have many rules outside of following the FCC regulations on our repeater. The three big ones are: no foul language, no discussing politics, and no business uses. We are strict about no foul language since there are kids that use our repeater on a regular basis. And politics usually leads to arguments.

After talking to another local GMRS repeater owner, we decided to follow his advice and not allow business use. He had a big problem with the big commercial farms wanting to tie up his repeater and we didn't want that to happen with ours.

We checked Repeater Book and My GMRS along with listening on all of the repeater channels first. We then reached out to the other GMRS repeater owners within a 50 mile radius of our location. SO far we have not had any issues with unlisted repeaters. We do occasionally pick up a different repeater on the other side of the state when there is a band opening.

 

Merry Christmas everyone.

[WRUE951]

MyGMRS is not an official GMRS Repeater management tool..  It's basically an App you use at your free will.. There is no official management system  for GMRS repeaters.  It's your responsibility to set up your GMRS repeater without interfering with other users.. If you are one of those unlucky person trying to set up a repeater in an area like New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Penn, where a single licensed GMRS user has decided to install dozens of repeaters and you can't find an open channel, well guess what, you are allowed to select whatever GMRS channel you desire and set your repeater use on it..  It's just up to you to make sure you don't interfere..  As long as you are not interfering, the other repeaters have no right to tell you to move or cease your operation..  Tell them to pound sand..   Just be nice..    Have Fun

[WRYZ926]

Unfortunately there are no coordination efforts nor any repeater counsels for GMRS like there is for amateur band repeaters. Plus the fact that GMRS repeaters are limited to just eight channels doesn't help. I am glad that we are in the middle of the state which made it easier to pick a channel. There are quite a few GMRS repeaters in the St Louis and Kansas City areas.

[intermod]

2 hours ago, WRUE951 said:

MyGMRS is not an official GMRS Repeater management tool..  It's basically an App you use at your free will.. There is no official management system  for GMRS repeaters.  It's your responsibility to set up your GMRS repeater without interfering with other users.. If you are one of those unlucky person trying to set up a repeater in an area like New York, New Jersey, Illinois, Penn, where a single licensed GMRS user has decided to install dozens of repeaters and you can't find an open channel, well guess what, you are allowed to select whatever GMRS channel you desire and set your repeater use on it..  It's just up to you to make sure you don't interfere..  As long as you are not interfering, the other repeaters have no right to tell you to move or cease your operation..  Tell them to pound sand..   Just be nice..    Have Fun

This is correct.   

After working with business frequency coordinators in the Part 90 bands (450-470 MHz) for many years, the same approach applies there - if you can't find a clear channel, you can still coordinate, license and install your repeater at the same site as another licensee operating on the same frequency (assumes neither is an FB8 class - centralized trunked).   Just don't interfere.   This often works out fine because the incumbent repeater is not being used (user moved on, or seasonal), or no longer exists, even though a license still exists.  It really is the best way to fully utilize spectrum.  However, the FCC's disservice was to lengthen the license term from five to ten years, resulting in tens of thousands to Peper" or non-existent repeaters.

 

[WRQI663]

20 hours ago, WRYZ926 said:

The three big ones are: no foul language, no discussing politics, and no business uses. We are strict about no foul language since there are kids that use our repeater on a regular basis. And politics usually leads to arguments.

I agree about foul language and general nasty stuff......but have you forgotten which country you live in?

I will speak on any subject I want - politics included. A good and thoughtful argument  should not be censored. I will not 'walk on eggs' to satisfy some

big headed 'repeater' owner. Don't like it, turn yours off and I will turn mine on.

[SteveShannon]

6 minutes ago, WRQI663 said:

I agree about foul language and general nasty stuff......but have you forgotten which country you live in?

I will speak on any subject I want - politics included. A good and thoughtful argument  should not be censored. I will not 'walk on eggs' to satisfy some big headed 'repeater' owner. Don't like it, turn yours off and I will turn mine on.

I think the fairly common rule prohibiting political speech on a privately owned repeater is a good one that makes repeater use more enjoyable for most users. That has nothing to do with being “big headed” or forgetting which country a person lives in. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution never has guaranteed that anybody can say anything anywhere at any time. When we use someone else’s repeater we need to be considerate of the rules. 

[nokones]

This site does drop off old listed repeater which is called "Stale Repeaters" after a specific time. However, there is the ability to populate the Map with those repeaters, you just needcto turn on that feature.

[LeoG]

23 hours ago, Raybestos said:

Even the two methods above may not work at all times.  In my state, there is a clique that has maintained a GMRS repeater presence of sorts, for over a decade.  They are listed on MyGMRS.com.  For as far back as anyone I know remembers, they have been "members only".  They have always had a disclaimer to the general effect that they were not accepting new members due to concerns about potential overloading of their repeater in the event of an actual emergency.  The comical thing, is that I know people who regularly monitor their channel and have never heard any transmissions from them.  Others that have, heard very brief traffic maybe once or twice in years of monitoring.  Obviously, overloading is not a concern so why not just say, "It is our repeater and we don't want no dang outsiders on it", which is their prerogative?

Getting back on track, a while back, a guy put up another repeater with wide coverage on their operating channel.  He likely did the "listen for activity" thing and hearing none, decided to park his large, "network linked" repeater on their operating channel.  Had the guy done the right thing and left it as a stand-alone to benefit the area GMRS community, he probably would have been fine.  Instead, he piped in garbage from all around the country via some linking network and the existing, mostly silent, repeater guys had a cow.  The silent guys plus the owner of another repeater about 40 miles out were not happy and raised a stink.  This led to a frequency change of the newer networked repeater which despite claims to the contrary, is still tied to some network with regular traffic from 700+ miles away on it.  Had the new guy just left off the linked network garbage, the little bit of local traffic on the channel likely would have been tolerable to the legacy repeater guys.  The frequent obscenity, profanity, and other noise coming in through the network is likely what created the uproar.

 

You snooze you lose.  If you pick a channel and then don't use it and someone else decides by monitoring that this channel is open then it's not his problem.  You can't claim a channel.  And if you aren't using the repeater for days or weeks on end then the other repeater isn't causing interference.  You can't interfere with something that's basically on standby for weeks on end.  Who does he think he is?  The government?

[tcp2525]

2 hours ago, WRQI663 said:

I agree about foul language and general nasty stuff......but have you forgotten which country you live in?

I will speak on any subject I want - politics included. A good and thoughtful argument  should not be censored. I will not 'walk on eggs' to satisfy some

big headed 'repeater' owner. Don't like it, turn yours off and I will turn mine on.

I agree with you that a good thoughtful and civil discussion can be had, but politics is one subject that you are guaranteed to offend at least 50% of the population. You combine that with people that have never learned how to respect people that have a different viewpoint than theirs. These trends are getting more pronounced as generations move forward. It's evident that this segment of people have never learned civility, respect for others, conflict resolution, discussion and debating skills to move them forward positively in society. This phenomena can be traced back to the introduction of the internet and social media where the users had the option to "unfriend" or block other users. While this, on the surface, sounds like a great feature, it impeded the user to develop and evolve emotionally to deal with difficult situations.

All that being said, why would you not want to abide by the repeater owner's charter? If they don't allow this type of discussions, why is so difficult to show respect? I find life is so much easier for all members on the repeater when we respect each other by not discussing things you know if going to offend others that might not have developed skills to deal with it. It's simple, have fun and be respectful.

[LeoG]

2 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

I think the fairly common rule prohibiting political speech on a privately owned repeater is a good one that makes repeater use more enjoyable for most users. That has nothing to do with being “big headed” or forgetting which country a person lives in. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution never has guaranteed that anybody can say anything anywhere at any time. When we use someone else’s repeater we need to be considerate of the rules. 

That goes for govt.  The repeater is a private non govt owned machine.  They can restrict your speech anyway they wish.

[UncleYoda]

3 hours ago, WRQI663 said:

I agree about foul language and general nasty stuff......but have you forgotten which country you live in?

I will speak on any subject I want - politics included. A good and thoughtful argument  should not be censored. I will not 'walk on eggs' to satisfy some

big headed 'repeater' owner. Don't like it, turn yours off and I will turn mine on.

I'm glad someone else said that.  I decided to ignore it because he isn't near me.  But I avoid any repeaters that make that kind of rule.  So far around me, only ham repeater owners have done that.  But if GMRS was used more for general conversation I'm sure it would happen to some of them too.  If I can't talk about current events (and almost everything is political), then I have no interest in conversation.  There is still emergency use, but that isn't everyday.

[WRYZ926]

3 hours ago, WRQI663 said:

I will speak on any subject I want - politics included. A good and thoughtful argument  should not be censored. I will not 'walk on eggs' to satisfy some

 

The ban on talking about politics was a decision made by the board of directors years ago. I don't sit on the BoD so I can't even suggest making changes one way or another. And no I do not always agree with the organization's bylaws and rules. But I do have to abide by them if I want to use the repeaters.

[WRYZ926]

Well said @SteveShannon and @tcp2525.

 

[UncleYoda]

43 minutes ago, LeoG said:

You snooze you lose.  If you pick a channel and then don't use it and someone else decides by monitoring that this channel is open then it's not his problem.  You can't claim a channel.  And if you aren't using the repeater for days or weeks on end then the other repeater isn't causing interference.  You can't interfere with something that's basically on standby for weeks on end.  Who does he think he is?  The government?

Ray summarized it well.  That no-new-members repeater is close to me.  It was the main reason I put off getting a GMRS license for ~10 years (there weren't any others in range then).  That owner/group and others did get upset by the new, linked one.  One owner fifty miles away was also against it because one of his repeaters used the same frequency and there was some overlap.  The big objection was especially the frequency he chose but the content made it stand out like a sore thumb.  I'm thinking about making that objectionable frequency my base station simplex default though because it has the least activity.  There is one other one that has a close repeater listed on myGMRS but the status is unclear.

[SteveShannon]

8 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

The ban on talking about politics was a decision made by the board of directors years ago. I don't sit on the BoD so I can't even suggest making changes one way or another. And no I do not always agree with the organization's bylaws and rules. But I do have to abide by them if I want to use the repeaters.

Well, as a volunteer director on a couple small corporations I would hope that you could suggest changes to the directors who sit on the board. They can certainly disregard them but if they don’t at least listen to you there’s usually a way for members to remove a director. 

[WRYZ926]

3 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Well, as a volunteer director on a couple small corporations I would hope that you could suggest changes to the directors who sit on the board. They can certainly disregard them but if they don’t at least listen to you there’s usually a way for members to remove a director. 

The subject of politics has come up a time or two. But the decision is always the same. We are a 501-3C non profit that relies on donations. And the donors come from a diverse background with some donors being left leaning and other donors being right leaning. The decision was made years ago to just keep politics off the repeaters so that we don't take a chance of loosing donations that we need to maintain the repeaters.

The choices are simple, abide by the rules if I want to use the repeaters or disagree and find other repeaters to use or stick to simplex. And I have found that the no politics rule is instituted by quite a few organizations/clubs that run repeaters in my area. And they state that it is for the same reasons as our BoD has stated.

Discussions range over a wide variety of topics on our repeaters and no one complains as long as the conversations are clean and not political.

[UncleYoda]

1 hour ago, tcp2525 said:

politics is one subject that you are guaranteed to offend at least 50% of the population.

Doesn't matter.  Almost everything worth talking about is political.  We have reached a point where there is likely no possible reconciliation and no peaceful way to coexist.

Quote

why would you not want to abide by the repeater owner's charter?

Why assume if we object to that kind of rule that we are breaking it?  I mostly just avoid those.

Quote

It's simple, have fun and be respectful.

But "fun" is not the only purpose (despite the attitude exhibited by most hams).  These are communication tools/services, not necessarily a hobby for fun.  Within the regs, what I talk about is what I'm interested in.  And if that means I'm limited to simplex then so be it.

[WRUE951]

4 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

I think the fairly common rule prohibiting political speech on a privately owned repeater is a good one that makes repeater use more enjoyable for most users. That has nothing to do with being “big headed” or forgetting which country a person lives in. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution never has guaranteed that anybody can say anything anywhere at any time. When we use someone else’s repeater we need to be considerate of the rules. 

GMRS repeaters are intended for family and friends  :-),, Personally, on my repeater the only thing not tolerated is profanity and name calling..  Anything else goes, for the most part..   being civil is the important part..   There are 4 repeaters including mine here in the desert and politics is defiantly a frequent topic, especially in the last few months..   I've never heard one time where conversions got 'heted'. Disagreements Yes,  but  nothing that got carried away..  I'm one of those people that follow the rule, "if you don't like what you here, hangup or turn the channel"  

[SteveShannon]

Just now, WRUE951 said:

GMRS repeaters are intended for family and friends  :-),, Personally, on my repeater the only thing not tolerated is profanity and name calling..  Anything else goes, for the most part..   being civil is the important part..   There are 4 repeaters including mine here in the desert and politics is defiantly a frequent topic, especially in the last few months..   I've never heard one time where conversions got 'heted' disagreements Yes,  but  nothing that got carried away..  I'm one of those people that follow the rule, "if you don't like what you here, hangup or turn the channel"  

Your repeater: your rules. My point was not that all repeaters should ban political speech, but that people who use a repeater with rules banning political speech should obey them, rather that declaring “I will speak on any subject I want - politics included”

[tcp2525]

46 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Doesn't matter.  Almost everything worth talking about is political.  We have reached a point where there is likely no possible reconciliation and no peaceful way to coexist.

Why assume if we object to that kind of rule that we are breaking it?  I mostly just avoid those.

But "fun" is not the only purpose (despite the attitude exhibited by most hams).  These are communication tools/services, not necessarily a hobby for fun.  Within the regs, what I talk about is what I'm interested in.  And if that means I'm limited to simplex then so be it.

That's just it, I agree with you, but..... It's not about us. Trust me, do you think I enjoy the direction our society is going? Nope! But I'm just along for the ride like most people. I've learned long ago to accept the fact that we have to deal with people that are just simply unhappy with their life and they expect everyone around them to be just as miserable. I've always lived by the simple rule, "If I don't have a financial or emotional investment in your ass, I won't allow you to get a rise out of me." That said, the manufacturer of my radios installed some really neat controls that most people never learned how to use properly. They are called an ON/OFF switch and that highly advanced channel selector. If I don't like the content or rules on a repeater I can simply turn my radio off or move to another repeater. And frankly, I have nothing to gain by trying to hold an intelligent political conversation with someone of an opposing viewpoint because neither of us most likely won't be swayed by simple logic. If I have to it will be in person. We've all heard the drunken hams on HF. I surely don't want that on any repeater so I would just move on if it was there.

[WRUE951]

8 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Your repeater: your rules. My point was not that all repeaters should ban political speech, but that people who use a repeater with rules banning political speech should obey them, rather that declaring “I will speak on any subject I want - politics included”

Yup and I agree..  Like turning the Ch away from something you dont want to hear, the same applies to tunning into something your going to disagree with..  Pretty much why i never watch CNN or FOX...   Saves on blood pressure pill. 

[tcp2525]

1 minute ago, WRUE951 said:

Yup and I agree..  Like turning the Ch away from something you dont want to hear, the same applies to tunning into something your going to disagree with..  Pretty much why i never watch CNN or FOX...   Saves on blood pressure pill. 

Why get upset when these "news" organizations are just opinion spreaders with nothing related to factual news and all should be taken with a grain of salt. I can handle their opinions as a source of curiosity even if I disagree with them. Bottom line, repeater usage should be civil and respectful..