10 watt repeater or higher wattage mobile.

[jwalsh7107]

I am new to the GMRS scene but have been doing alot of research the past few months. I did get my GMRS license. I have a 250 acre farm and live in a rural area of south central KY. I bought 4 Tidradio H3 gmrs radios to use on the farm. I bought the radios to use for safety reasons, many areas on my farm do not receive cell service and if someone is out working we will have radio communications. My house and barn is located on the highest point basically in the center of my land. The H3 ht’s worked remarkably well and I received clear tx/rx all across the farm to the house. I still need to test h/t to h/t from farthest point to farthest point which is about 1-3/4 miles. I do have some elevation drops and trees. Anyway my question is this. I was looking into a Midland 10 watt repeater and external mast antenna mounted in my barn which is highest point/central on my land. But I am wondering if that would be better than maybe a 50 watt gmrs mobile with mast antenna and some 20 watt mobil radios in my side by sides and tractor. What i would like to get by using the repeater would be 5-10 miles coverage around my farm. The closest GMRS repeater is I think around 50 miles from my location zip code 42166. I didn't want to spend 1500 on a btech repeater but I am wondering if the 10 watt Midland would be enough? I am surprised Midland hasn’t made a higher wattage repeater yet.

[tweiss3]

A 50 mobile base station will only be helpful if someone is sitting in hearing distance from that radio. The repeater would benefit all users, HT or tractor mobiles, as every one would hear every transmission.

[jwalsh7107]

That is what I was thinking, I guess my own problem is in my head is that Im wondering from a centralized location on my farm is how many more fars would a 10 watt Midland repeater kick out vs a 5 watt h/t. I like the idea of the repeater and more handhelds, plus the handhelds go for under 30 so if it gets lost or broken its not the end of the world.

[WRYZ926]

I have to agree. The Retevis or Midland 10 watt repeater will be a better option in your use case. Get the antenna up as high as possible at your house. Don't forget to use a good quality LMR400 or equivalent coax to connect the repeater to the antenna.

A 10 watt repeater will actually put out 5 watts on transmit since the signal goes through a duplexer. But 5 watts is still enough power in your situation. again, use a good quality antenna and quality coax.  I will suggest an antenna with 6 dBi of gain for your location since you have hilly terrain.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, jwalsh7107 said:

That is what I was thinking, I guess my own problem is in my head is that Im wondering from a centralized location on my farm is how many more fars would a 10 watt Midland repeater kick out vs a 5 watt h/t. I like the idea of the repeater and more handhelds, plus the handhelds go for under 30 so if it gets lost or broken it’s not the end of the world.

The power of the repeater isn’t nearly as important as the installation of the repeater.   Installed at a location that’s within range of the different handheld radios, with good cable and a high antenna it can greatly improve your communications reliability. 

[WRYZ926]

12 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

The power of the repeater isn’t nearly as important as the installation of the repeater.   Installed at a location that’s within range of the different handheld radios, with good cable and a high antenna it can greatly improve your communications reliability. 

This is very true. The closest GMRS repeater to me is 21.5 miles away. I can get into it just fine with my base station even on low power. Granted my transmission is clear of any static on mid and high power. I do have my antenna at 22 feet above the ground and the repeater antennas are at 400 feet. I've also talked on the repeater from home using my KG-935G too. But I have to be in the right spot and facing the repeater to do so.

The Midland or Retevis 10 watt repeaters will work just fine for @jwalsh7107 as long as he gets his repeater antenna up high enough and uses good coax. 5 watts is no issue for a couple of miles with the antenna up high. 

[WRTC928]

What you're describing is an issue not of power, but of obstruction; i.e., the hill in the middle of the property blocks signals from going to one side of the property to the other. The distances you're talking about are easily attainable with 5 watts provided there are no obstructions. I've talked clearly from one 5 watt HT to another 5 watt HT several miles away on an open highway. Much more is possible if one or both radios are in elevated positions. Radio waves travel in a straight line, or close enough to straight that it makes no difference. A repeater on the highest point of the property means any radio on the property has a straight line to the repeater, which then has a straight line to the other radio(s). In my -- admittedly limited -- experience, more power can make a fuzzy signal clearer, but it won't get you any significant improvement in distance.

[dosw]

3 hours ago, jwalsh7107 said:

That is what I was thinking, I guess my own problem is in my head is that Im wondering from a centralized location on my farm is how many more fars would a 10 watt Midland repeater kick out vs a 5 watt h/t. I like the idea of the repeater and more handhelds, plus the handhelds go for under 30 so if it gets lost or broken its not the end of the world.

Take power out of the equation for a moment and assume that the only thing that matters is like of sight (since that's actually 95% of what matters): The purpose of the repeater is to be located somewhere that has line of sight to two remote radios that do not have line of sight to each other. So if your repeater is up high, and the two radios that want to talk to each other can see the repeater, it doesn't matter that the radios can't see each other; the repeater relays the conversation.

Now to further take power out of it, consider that with a 5w handheld radio a ham operator with a rather directional Yagi antenna can send a signal through the ISS (International Space Station) repeater, and someone else with a decent antenna can hear him a thousand or more miles away. The biggest requirement is that both parties have line of sight to the ISS, which is at an elevation of 1,243,200 feet above sea level (240 miles). So when there are no obstructions at all, 5w will travel hundreds of miles to the space station which may be passing hundreds of miles to the north, for example, but still within line of sight.

 

That's not to say that power doesn't help. It does. If you have two people in a room ten feet apart, and one person whispers, the other person might hear it. Turn on a fan in the room, and now the person has to talk a little louder to be heard. Run a vacuum and the person has to shout, and may need to cup his hands in front of his mouth while the other person cups his hand behind his ear to improve the signal path of the voice. This is like both increasing power and increasing the antenna gain. Now put a 30 foot high brick wall between the two people. At this point the only way the two people will hear each other is if someone is standing on top of the wall to relay the message. 

[LeoG]

The Midland, like the Retevis is only about 5-6 watts out.  It has a 10 watt transmitter before the duplexer.  Duplexer loss is about 45%.

If you have line of sight then the Retevis or the Midland will work well.  Put the antenna up as high as possible

[WRXL702]

Utilizing A 50 Watt Repeater With 20 Watt Mobiles Will Enhance Your System.

If It Were Me - That Is Exactly The Upgrade I Would Use For My System........

[BoxCar]

1 hour ago, WRXL702 said:

Utilizing A 50 Watt Repeater With 20 Watt Mobiles Will Enhance Your System.

If It Were Me - That Is Exactly The Upgrade I Would Use For My System........

BS - just because it's what you would do, it would be overkill for this situation. Excess power doesn't do anything for this farmer except waste money. Why use more power than what is necessary? Power isn't always an acceptable answer and usually invites trouble as it pollutes the airwaves with unneeded RF. He wants to build a system to solve his problem, not build something that provides coverage for anyone in the area,

[WRXL702]

And It Is Not BS - It Is My Opinion On What I Would Do - Just As You Acknowledged.

Further, I Never Said He Must Follow My Advice.

You Sir, Need To Get Off Your High Horse & Stop Condemning Everyone's Opinion.

Your Logic Is Your Opinion - And I Don't Necessarily Agree With Your Mindset On RF.......

 

[jwalsh7107]

Thank you for all the input, it was helpful to me. I think I will start saving for the repeater. The location I was going to put it was my pole barn. The roof height is approximately 17/18 feet. I was planning on putting a j pole at the peak and then mount an antenna to it. I am open on recommendations for an antenna. I will also invest in a good quality coaxial cable. I see how that is important.

[WRXL702]

Sounds Like The Start Of A Great Game Plan.

Good Luck On Your RF Adventures.......

[WRYZ926]

A lot of us use Comet antennas. And for your situation, I am going to recommend the Comet CA-GMRS antenna.

The best price I found is $99 theantennafarm.com CA-GMRS antenna

I will suggest looking at the  DX Engineering 400MAX from DX Engineering. It is good quality and will be cheaper than actual LMR400 coax. 

I have used JET LMR400 coax from R & L electronics and it is good stuff too. Though I have not used any JET coax longer than 6 feet.

A satellite dish j mount will work fine for mounting an antenna. That is what I use for my GMRS antenna along with my HF cobweb and a vertical HF antenna. They have survived 50-60 mph shear winds along with snow and ice.

Here is the mounts I have: Antennas Direct ClearStream TV Antenna Mast . I went with the 40" tall version but they only have the 20" version in stock. Or you could probably scrounge an old Dish/DirectTV mount.

[SteveShannon]

5 hours ago, WRXL702 said:

Utilizing A 50 Watt Repeater With 20 Watt Mobiles Will Enhance Your System.

If It Were Me - That Is Exactly The Upgrade I Would Use For My System........

There is a good reason not to use full legal power on a repeater, especially given the situation described above.
The repeater already has the advantage of antenna height and gain. Having a high power transmitter in your repeater simply makes it so the repeater can transmit much further than the radios in the field can transmit with their lower elevation and lower gain antennas. 

[WRYZ926]

6 hours ago, WRXL702 said:

Utilizing A 50 Watt Repeater With 20 Watt Mobiles Will Enhance Your System.

If It Were Me - That Is Exactly The Upgrade I Would Use For My System........

A 10 watt repeater will be just fine for the OP's needs.He is only needing to cover about a 1 3/4 mile radius. The key for him will be getting his antenna up as high as he can get it on the highest point of his property,  He doesn't need a 50 watt repeater for that. 50 watts is overkill for such a small coverage radius. Plus he can save a lot of money by getting a Midland or Retevis 10 watt repeater.

[warthog74]

7 hours ago, jwalsh7107 said:

I was planning on putting a j pole at the peak and then mount an antenna to it. I am open on recommendations for an antenna.

I use one of these for my 5 watt GMRS repeater. https://www.jpole-antenna.com/shop/462-mhz-land-mobile-gmrs-j-pole-antenna/ Cheap, light, and works well.

You’ll want to get it higher than 18 feet though. Trust me. I ended up using a 30 foot flag pole, then i attached 2 10 foot aluminum poles on top of that. Antenna now sits at 50 feet and covers 10 miles of city and rural mixed. At 30 feet i barely got 5 miles. However at 30 feet, it should have no problem covering your 250 acres.

[WRYZ926]

You can use 1 5/8" fence posts as a mast or to extend the height of a j mount. You will need some 4 Pieces 1-5/8" X 6" Chain Link Fence Top Rail Sleeve to attach the fence posts together or to a j mount. I will suggest using some guy rope to guy the mast if you extend the j mount or the mast is more than a few feet above the mount.

I have used 1 5/8" fence posts with those couplers for a mast and also extended j mounts with 1 5/8" fence posts and couplers without any issues. I do run a total of 16 zip screws into the coupler to attache them. I put 8 zip screws into each pipe I am connecting.

The main thing is to properly guy the mast to support it and the antenna. 

Here is a photo of my 6 band cobweb antenna that is on a 8 foot section of 1 5/8" fence post attached to a 40" tall j mount. I have it guyed at three points with guy rope.

Here is a photo of my Comet CA-712EFC GMRS antenna attached directly to a 40" tall j mount. I did not need to guy it.

[LeoG]

You can use twigs and stones if you guy wire it properly .  Myself I've been using 1.5" EMT conduit for masts.  You can use 1.25" copper pipe to join sections together, they fit snug.  I use a 2' section of copper and then 3 self tapping screws on the upper and lower sections to secure them together.

[WRYZ926]

There are many ways to get an antenna up in the air. The main thing is to make sure the antenna and mast are secure so they don't fall over.