Leaderboard

No offense, but no one is stopping you from using the service you paid to use, all 22 channels of it. They absolutely do have the option of deciding who uses their equipment (repeaters) though, for whatever valid or silly reason they may have. It was a harsh realization for me too, but gmrs isn't a hobbyist oriented service, it's primarily aimed at families and groups having comms within their groups with minimal technical knowledge needed, and outside this bubble we have here, it's pretty much how most people use it, as a utility among their group, and stick to their group....which means they'll generally have their tones set not to hear outsiders. I've had a total of one contact so far, as there's basically almost no hobbyist traffic here either. Also recently got booted from a gmrs group on Facebook, because one of their "instant ban" rules is no mention of other radio services (ham, cb, Murs, etc); guess I slipped and forgot which group I was replying to and supplied some info about online testing availability for ham tickets (in addition to that one, I'm in a couple gmrs groups and few ham groups as well).

Good citizenship and giving back to the community for the common good are valid justifications why a repeater owner might open their repeater up for others individuals to use. I for one know that if I put one up I would most likely share it. I get the sense however from some that they feel I should be obligated to give them use of my equipment if I happened to have the means and choose to acquire it. It is that sense of entitlement that really troubles me. If I owned a chainsaw I would likely loan it out to a family member or neighbor when I learned they were in need and/or they otherwise asked. However, I would not look to kindly on a random person entering my property and using of my possessions without my consent merely because they learned from a friend of a friend that I owned what they wanted. Perhaps I grew up in an old school and time when being polite and asking permission were cherished and respected traits of a polite society. Perhaps now I need to learn things have changed and it is perfectly appropriate to borrow things from others without their consent. Under this mindset it would seem I should be able to borrow that lawnmower sitting outside in someone’s yard without their consent, or perhaps even their car which is sitting on a public street, as long as I return it when I am done with it. I will restate again (see my earlier post in this thread) that the FCC itself clearly showed its intent with regards to repeater access. They indicate (and I paraphrase) that the repeater owner “may” grant access to the use of the repeater to others and “may” revoke permission. In this regard, its is legally their decision. Don’t give the repeater owners a bad rap for not giving you permission to use their equipment. Instead, be thankful, friendly and polite to those that do give you permission. Perhaps befriend them with an offer to contribute towards ongoing operating expenses as a sign of your ongoing appreciation. If someone does not give you permission, respect their decision, don’t just steal it. If you really need a repeater find a legal way to get one of you own on the air. BTW, I am am both an amateur and GMRS licensee. I feel the same about both. Being respectful and polite goes a long way. Michael WRHS965 KE8PLM P.S. If you are one that truly feels that all GMRS repeaters should be open to all, then perhaps the FCC needs to be lobbied and the Part 95 rules need to be changed. Be prepared however for higher taxes and or many current repeater owners taking them off the air as no one likes to be told what to do. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Radio waves in GMRS band are public domain, but hardware is not. There is nothing more to it, repeaters are personally owned hardware. I do not expect to use someone else's radio just because I know where it is and how it works.

Amen!

In GMRS, and other UHF services, power is far less important than signal path. For UFH signal path is essentially LOS (line of sight). Depending on the exact frequency there may be a bit of bending, reflection or fresnel effect. But, the one sure element is LOS. With that in mind, 6 or 7 miles at 5 watts with LOS between the two locations is no problem. Increasing the wattage to the legal maximum of 50 watts will only make a difference in terms of overcoming other traffic on the same channel. That is because of the FM capture effect in which the "louder" of two signals is heard while the weaker one is lost. This would help you, and wipe out the other user(s) you were stomping on. So, not a good idea. Also, if you really want power then you would be advised to purchase a good quality mobile radio (possibly used) that operates at the power level you want., Not only would you get 40 or 50 watts of power (there is almost difference between the two: < 1db), but, you would also get a much better receiver that would be capable of rejecting noise and adjacent channel interference in an RF rich environment like NYC. On the other hand, coupling a cheap radio like the UV-5R, with its poor quality receiver, to a cheap 50 watt amplifier, with lots of noise and spurious emissions is not only unlikely to meet your needs, but will probably piss off a lot of other nearby GMRS operators. Also note, you can only operate simplex at 50 watts on 8 of the GMRS channels, and those are also repeater outputs and likely to be busy. The other 14 channels limit you to 5 or 0.5 watts. So, if you really want GMRS, I would suggest you look at your antenna options. A pair of good medium to high gain antennas will help focus your output power and reduce unwanted signal reception. However, beware that the limits for most of the GMRS channels (1-14) are ERP (effective radiated power) that includes any antenna gain. As another option for unlicensed radio use (as opposed to ham radio) you might look at MURS. This is a VHF service and might give you better propagation in your area. There is a separate forum for MURS on the MyGMRS Forum. Or, skip radio altogether and try an IP based approach, like Zello.

First, I'm sorry if this comes off as cross, however the way you had typed and worded this message promotes the air of "I want it therefore it should be given to me" type of attitude, which to many repeater owners, translates to abuse of equipment they paid for and maintain. Everyone has a gripe, its discussion of the concern or issue in an adult manor that brings some form of resolution or at very least a little more respect for you as a person. Now second, if you have read the FCC rules that you agreed to, you will find the following: 47 CFR 95.1705 (D) Individual Licensee Duties, The holder of an individual license: (2) May allow any person to use (i.e., benefit from the operation of) its GMRS repeater, or alternatively, may limit the use of its GMRS repeater to specific persons; (3) May disallow the use of its GMRS repeater by specific persons as may be necessary to carry out its responsibilities under this section. Another words, as a repeater owner, I have the authority to refuse access to users who fail to follow FCC rules, or fail to follow rules I have set for the use of the repeater (Including collection of any club fees associated with maintaining said repeater/repeaters) or if you conduct yourself in a way that may be harmful or interfering of any communications through said repeater. I have banned people for prolonged "key up" times where they were intentionally jamming the repeater in hopes of damaging the unit. I also banned a user who tried to tell me I had to pay him for the use of the repeater I had bought and set up. This means that when you contact the FCC, they will likely ignore you, or if you do get a response, it'll likely be "The system owner has legal authority to restrict the systems use to specific individuals."

Amen! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I am with others here on a number of fronts. UV-5R is not a good radio choose for use in a busy RF environment. You will invariably want a radio with a much better receiver, perhaps even a high-end commercial one. While you own your UV-5R, learn what it can and cannot do so when you finally upgrade to a top end radio you can appreciate it. The UV-5R is not legal for use on GMRS. If it were legal, and you used it with an external amplifier, you would only be allowed to transmit on the 8 main GMRS frequencies as berkinet has already indicated. 14 frequencies would be off limits due to the .5w and 5w limits. GMRS frequencies will travel great distances when you have line of sight. Every obstacle between you and your intended receiver will reduce effective distance. In the city where you have miles and miles of tall buildings you have massive volumes of obstacles. Repeater antennas generally find their home on some of the tallest grounds available (buildings, towers, etc...) so they achieve the greatest coverage (footprint) possible. Finding a repeater in the area that has acceptable coverage in your area and you friends would be a huge win for you. Without an antenna on top of your property and on top of your friends property, and without limited obstacles between these two antenna, no I do not believe that extra power will give you the results you seek. If you can, but just barely, get into a repeater with 8 watts, perhaps an increase from 8 to 50 would in-fact improve your signal strength into the repeater, but I would not expect it lead to simplex capability with your friend at that range. If I new I needed 50 watts, I would use an all-in-one radio with 50 watts, not a HT with external amp. If you can get into repeater with 8 watts, but just barely, you could also consider a Yagi antenna that is pointed permanently and optimally to reach the repeater, the Yagi may make it possible to get in without an external amp. Case and point. There is a local operator that lives about 45 miles from a repeater we both use. He can get into the repeater strong enough to carry on a conversation with his HT set only to 1/2 watt. Signal is a noisy but I can still understand every word. When he kicks his power up to 25 watts, he sounds as good as operators 5-10 miles from the repeater. Hope this helps. MIchael WRHS965 KE8PLM Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You have brought up this issue before, and I and others have responded. GMRS is not a general two way public radio service like CB or ham. If you want to meet locals on the radio I strongly suggest you look into those two services. You are far more likely to make the connections you seem to be looking for. While the definitions of radio services are not always all encompassing (I.e. some leeway may apply) here are the service definitions from the FCC. GMRS General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS). A mobile two-way voice communication service, with limited data applications, for facilitating activities of individual licensees and their family members, including, but not limited to, voluntary provision of assistance to the public during emergencies and natural disasters. FRS Family Radio Service (FRS). A short-distance two-way voice communication service, with limited data applications, between low power hand-held radios, for facilitating individual, family, group, recreational and business activities. CB CB Radio Service (CBRS). A mobile and fixed two-way voice communication service for facilitating personal, business or voluntary public service activities, including communications to provide assistance to highway travelers. Ham Radio The rules and regulations in this part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles: a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications. Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art. c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communication and technical phases of the art. d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts. e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill.

Uhf is pretty line of sight, what is your antenna situation? That will have more effect (especially for receiving) than more power. The other issue in a big city environment is noise, and the tendency for the receiver to desense to avoid overload, it may not entirely be a problem of signal reaching, but also picking it out of the noise. If there is a repeater in range of both of you, maybe focus toward optimizing for that? Granted vhf and uhf behave a bit differently, but 5 watts on vhf can reach the space station when conditions are right https://www.qsl.net/ah6rh/am-radio/spacecomm/getting-started-iss.html

While that is certainly true; it's a real pity that none of the "name brands" are offering any new Part 95e equipment for sale.

Thank you for that clarification, which I had not seen put exactly that way. It helps a good bit.

Man, that is the land of CCRs right there...

I am going to have to agree with berkinet on this one. Yes, I can see you’re disappointed. It seems you are living an an area where folks are not using the services available to them and consequently there are not others around to rag-chew with. I figure if you want to chew the fat with others on GMRS you may need to make some friends the old fashion way and then convince them do get GMRS license and associated equipment to kick start things. Activity will breed new activity. If it truly is all about just talking, amateur radio is where you want to go. But even then, you may find little VHF/UHF activity near you outside of crisis time. You may need to get your intermediate level amateur license (General class) so that you can use HF frequencies to work the globe. Those around me that have HF radios say the band is always full of activity. Previously, if I recall correctly, you said you were studying for your technicians license. Go bold and study for both technician and general class. That is what I did. I also received the study guide for Extra class license as a gift for Christmas. Time permitting I will take that exam in 2021. Best wishes, Michael WRHS965 KE8PLM Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Two meta points. This is the wrong forum for this discussion. Since your topic is specific to GMRS it is very much on-topic and you should post it in the General forum. Then, if you look in that forum, you will find there is already long running discussion on this very subject. https://forums.mygmrs.com/topic/2085-whats-with-repeater-users-needing-permission-on-gmrs/

I have a few new “ham” radios that tx on GMRS freqs. One of them needed a button pushed while being powered up, but that’s it. 2 just needed to be programmed. I have a 4th radio, that one needed the “Mars mod” but that also wasn’t an issue. Ham radios aren’t licensed. If you can build your own, why can’t you buy one. Seems silly, and I think they addressed that... while still leaving some confusion. The way I read it is. Once modified, they lose certification, thus CAN be used by amateur radio operators, but only on the frequencies they have privileges on based on their level of license. The confusing part is radios “marketed” for GMRS. If you can take a GMRS legal radio, and mid it for use on ham freqs... that might be illegal, but still seems silly. I guess for hams, it takes a different route. Because the radios for ham use are not (theoretically) marketed towards GMRS use, they don’t need to be certified for GMRS use in the first place. They still can’t tx on GMRS freqs, but can clearly listen, and can still use their freqs. Example. A ham can buy an Icom 7100. It is not certified for GMRS use. It can be modded for such use, but was never marketed for GMRS use. A ham can build their own radio that can tx on all sorts of freqs. They just can tx on freqs they don’t have privileges on. Even with all the double backpedaling, most judges would see this is to vague and confusing to be enforceable. I would assume it’s probably as high on the list of things the FCC cares about as how many Baofengs are being used on GMRS.

Oddly, I think I’m right about in the middle of this “debate”. I can understand why a GMRS repeater owner would want to get permission. You can then have a list of people who have permission, so if you need to change your squelch codes, you can e-mail everyone the new codes. GMRS doesn’t require a test, meaning it doesn’t require any significant knowledge of the rules/regulations. Simply put, GMRS lics don’t mean you know any more than that you need one, and how to get one. Hams need to take tests. Meaning they need to at least know the answers to the tests. And will jump through the hoops needed to actually take the test in front of 3 VEs. The people willing to do that, on average, are going to take their privileges a little more seriously than someone who simply paid some money on a website. So I can see why hams are more willing to open up their repeaters. The people using them are more likely to take the rules seriously. At the same time, I would think that GMRS repeater owners would WANT more people to use their repeaters to get a little more use out of the time, money and effort to put up a repeater, and maybe find a few more people that they could get a hold of if they needed help in an emergency... especially if it is a larger repeater. I do use GMRS as a hobby. I will also be looking at ham radio as a hobby as well. I am very grateful to the owner of our one active local repeater. I have met him, and consider him a good friend. Enough that I’ve been to his place to help with his repeater, and he has helped me with my mobile setup. I was a kid of the CB generation, and remember meeting a lot of people that became my friends because of CB. CB seems to have become a wasteland since the dawn of cell phones... maybe still useful for truck drivers, but little more unless talking skip on sidebands. For me, GMRS is like CB on steroids. I can reliably talk 20 miles on an HT to people I know well, and others I only know via GMRS. I’m not really looking to make contacts for the sake of having made a contact. So even though I will be getting at the least, a general lic, I won’t be getting any gear outside of HF, VHF, and UHF. Probably won’t even get into HF. That said, I think, based on some replies here, GMRS could learn some things from hams.

Maybe some folks donated to a fund for the repeater and think of themselves as "part owner" of sorts. No excuse for being rude...I'm just puzzling out loud the reason. Unless the repeater owner says get lost, I would ignore them.

First off, I HATE that this is my first post on here. I would much rather it been the HI. I'm Keith and I'm a radioholic. I can say that due to getting the bug at the age of about 8 or 10 with CB. Been an ham for over 20 years and a commercial radio tech for over 10 years. Enough with the introduction. While I can see the draw to doing DMR on GMRS, I will give a friendly warning about getting what you wish for. I mentioned the commercial radio tech thing. And I will comment a bit on first hand experience with DMR and analog on the same frequencies. First off is DMR modulation causes the signal to carry for distances that are surprising. We have two customers that are 4 counties away. Both were analog at one point and they never once had interference issues with each other yet they happened to share 2 frequencies. One was a 5 site analog simulcast system. Meaning 5 radio towers in different areas of the county, linked together and transmitting at the same time on the same frequency. Other customer had 4 different repeater sites and 4 different frequencies. So then it was decided that the second customer with 4 repeater sites needed to be DMR IP Site connect ( the technology that the ham radio DMR systems are linked with. And it was not EVER right, and they were BOTH interfering with each other, immediately. The DMR was breaking into the analog audio for the analog user, so they were hearing the DMR in places. And the fact that there was signal from the analog getting into the DMR radios for customer B... they would just hear nothing. So here's my point. We have 8 repeater pairs to work with nation wide. Customer B's DMR repeater that was interfering with Customer A was a 3 db gain antenna on a roof top that was MAYBE 60 feet in the air with a 40 watt radio that was cut back to 20 watts. Customer A's simulcast system was installed with the antennas below 120 feet to purposely reduce the coverage of the sites because by design you don't want a lot of overlap in an analog simulcast radio system. Switching from analog to DMR as far as the heard signal, at 50 watts, would be like an analog signal at 300 watts. And that pulsing type of modulation, busts right through the noise floor and is heard by analog receivers very well, and better than the analog signal. So be careful what you wish for. When this happens, and it probably will at some point. The repeater that you sometimes hear two counties over, will be busting into your analog radio when you get into the fringe of your repeater coverage area and REDUCE your effective coverage area by as much as a third, with NOTHING that can be done about it. I was told that the FCC even considered reducing the power levels for repeaters in the public safety bands to 10 watts or less for DMR users. For those of you that are in the business. The company I work for is the one that bought BACK a DMR radio system (Customer B's). That fact is pretty well known in the commercial radio community. And if you have heard about it, please refrain from mentioning who I work for or the customers out of respect. I personally would never even consider running a DMR repeater on GMRS unless it was a collaborative effort and it was only on one frequency. And that it was FREE to assess for all GMRS license holders. Don't get me wrong. DMR is great. It would bring in TDMA to GMRS and give license holders twice as many talk paths as we have. Simplify linking and create the ability to have Group Call's (talk groups... I know,,, I do the Motorola thing). But the fact that it would create a ton of harmful interference for those folks that are just wanting to do the analog thing. And enjoy the license and its benefits without needing to completely replace their radio systems, I can't in good conscience advocate for the change. Just my two cents.