gortex2

Bad analogy around me ! I live in the middle of Amish community. Its horse and buggies all day long around my house
 

And the best part they manufacture themselves, no chip shortages or high gas prices to worry about. The waste products are naturally recyclable. When the bombs fly and the big EMP event they will still keep working too.

Bad analogy around me ! I live in the middle of Amish community. Its horse and buggies all day long around my house
 

That's not entirely untrue. 

In my own experience, I'd heard that as well from site managers and yet, there were some commercial sites that allowed hams (or they knew somebody who looked the other way) and, some of those 'ham' repeaters were pretty disgusting in how poorly assembled the 'system' was.  Many times, when discovered they were thrown out and their equipment held for 'Back Rent", many times if they were stupid enough to mention who let them in, that person was terminated. 

Not so much of the 'free rides' since 911.  Even the professionals have to go through some serious screening for access, just to just maintain equipment.  Site access in general changed quite a bit, almost overnight, after 911.  Started in the big cities first and has been slowly migrating out to the rest of the country.

All that said, there are a lot of ham repeaters that are part 90, didn't have to be modified for that service, were properly maintained, and nobody takes issue with them on site.  "Ham' by definition isn't a bad thing, but there is a perception in commercial radio circles is that Hams are a problem because they 'kluge together junk'.  Both statements are accurate, but not necessarily so (if you get my meaning). 

When I was much younger and still in field service, my manager had a saying 'Hams can fix anything, just not the right way".  He said things like that because that was his experience.  Additionally, commercial radio is about service and revenue and so he had no reason to care if his experience was accurate or not.

The (SAD) fact is, there are 'Hams' who do just cobble shit together to serve a purpose ('repeater'), and many times that 'system' ends up being an RF nightmare or, as we use to joke, a DIY wide-band noise generator.  So the concern about allowing a ham repeater into a commercial site is somewhat justified, just not in every case.

However, in my own experience there are far more Hams, when talking about repeater systems, who take a very serious and professional approach to system design and site conformity.  Indeed, most of the latter are, or are overseen by, professional RF engineers who also happen to be Hams.  Those are the 'Hams' who, even in this post 911 world, are still are able to obtain access to commercial sites for their systems.  It's their (site managers) game.  Play by their rules and you're cool.  Otherwise, go elsewhere.

For all the bad mouthing about 'hams' in the forums here, the reality is that Ham Radio operators, like any large group, represent a cross section of society.  So don't condemn and entire hobby/group because of a generalized stereotype. 

The same can be said of GMRS users. 

The "Sad Hams" OffRoaderX refers to a lot, are real but (fortunately) do not represent the majority of Hams. 

That said, there are far too many Hams for which the statement is accurate.  I also think many of them haunt the forums and YouTube (or maybe just Randy LOL!), just waiting to point out things they really don't know anything about (but "think they read somewhere").

This (GMRS) is really just another aspect of the radio hobby.  We have noobs and we have genuine experts, neither of which should take themselves too seriously!

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One last thing, sort of related to the subject/topic...

During my career at Motorola, over 65% of the engineers in the company were licensed amateur radio operators (Hams).  These are the same people who designed those radios so many love and want.

Indeed, in many of the communications fields, the engineers and maintenance people (not all) are also hams. 

In the day, Milwaukee County Wisconsin's radio department had a policy of only hiring technicians who had both a commercial license and, at least a General class amateur radio license.  As I recall, they were not the only agency to follow that practice.   The logic was they wanted to hire people who not only knew how to fix radios, but had an active interest in the job. 

I don't know if that still exists today, probably not because the FCC changed the rules regarding who may legally repair radios (It was better back then IMHO).

So while I am not suggesting non hams should suddenly  like 'Hams', that level of respect from public safety, despite the stereotypes says, IMHO, a lot about that 'hobby'.

Not to mention, but I'd venture a guess that a lot of GMRS users, indeed, many here, are also Amateur Radio Operators ("Hams').

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I've heard stories where Hams can't get their equipment colocated with commercial equipment on building roof tops and towers because the commercial guys don't want to waste their time trying to trouble shoot issues with their equipment caused by poorly maintained or modified Part 90 stuff to get it on the Ham bands. They have a business to run and people pay good money for the service(s) they provide.

+1 on the CDM1250, or in my case CDM1550LS+ as I already had them. Since you are experienced with radios, commercial gear will server you very well at the power you want (50W). Although, I also use a Radioddity DB20-G mobile as a base and as a mobile. Had to get two as they work pretty well for price and size.
Went with a new vehicle and stacked VHF/UHF Vertex VX-3200's would not fit the new car, DB20-G would fit into dash like it was meant to be there, so it is my mobile. Liked how it worked and programmed, so got one for base station. However, already had little portable power supply with radio stacked on top, made of Motorola CDM1550LS+ and another with XPR5550e mobile, which do work a lot better, just larger and heavier when moving around. 
For oil industry I used to make a lot of mobiles attached to power supply as portable base station good for 45-55 watts in UHF/VHF....many ended up in hurricane response trailers, staging sites, and command posts. Good luck on making a GMRS base station, and in my own opinion, for base station use, I always try to get a desk mic.....as it just feels better than the mobile mic for use in vehicles. That makes the radio "feel" like a base station.

1-5/8" on the transmit line I installed.  I believe the receive is 1-1/4".  If you'd like to see pictures (outdated now showing the TKR-850 of course) and a coverage map go to http://rugged575.com/
I'm good with my tower owner, all things have been considered and signed off for as far as studies.  Trust me on that one lol.

If the FCC admits in writing that Part 90 equipment is perfectly legal to use in GMRS, again, in a written memo that you can show to the tower owner, then that would be "by the book". I don't understand what the issue is here.
Again, without reading the memo, and the proper legal representation on the matter, anything said here is just speculation, hearsay, and to me its also fear mongering from the Kenwood guys that after a Motorola repeater beat the crap out of a Kenwood repeater... so now lets attack Motorola superior equipment because it lacks certification, and that black SUVs and fines can come piling down your door.... so you should instead buy inferior Part 95 equipment... Sorry, I've played that game before: and I'll stick with Motorola and their superior Part 90 stuff.
In fact, in my opinion, the Quantar is most likely superior to anything repeater Kenwood has ever made (hence why it costs x10 times more, right?), and the OP post just confirms it. Also, the OP post also confirms what I've been seeing for the past two years from ISOteeing different brand radios. The question is, why is it so hard to admit that the Quantar its just a better repeater out of the box? Get one, stop complaining that the Kenwood could be better if tuned, etc... just get a Quantar and be done with it, just like the OP did, or just like I did I went Motorola on all my equipment, sold the inferior stuff, and never looked back.
Making any claims that the XPR7550e could be an equal to the APX8000 with some tuning or whatever will server no purpose, these two radios will never be equal, not even close. So when I see threads of APX guys bashing the XPR radios I simply steer clear, there is no point in denying a fact, except indicate someone might be jealous. Now, what I can tell you I'll do is that when I have enough cash burning holes in my pockets I'll get myself a whole fleet of these shiny APX8000 radios and join the Luxury Transceiver exclusive club with style, and probably dump the inferior XPR7550e...  until then, the order of things is APX8000 > XPR7550e
G.

Good, Fast, Cheap.  Pick any two
The same could apply to radios with: Good Coverage, Low Price, Easy to Acquire. Except you can only pick 1...
20 miles reliable coverage to hand held portables is usually not going to happen with a "garage" repeater at your home location.
In years past, I've seen those GR300 desktop repeaters at tower sites with good elevation - and as Gman says, they usually have a bunch of bandpass cavities, preselectors, and pre-amps wired in, which kid of defeats the whole "done on the cheap" - spending $350 for a GR300 vs. $1000 - $1500 for a used Quantar/MTR2000.

So first thing I would try to do is get your antenna cable alot shorter than 100' between antenna and repeater. Unless its going up a tower the closest is the best. Even LMR will have almost 3dblossi n 100'. That just took your 25 watt repeater to 12.5 and that no duplexer. You will have loss there also. 
The duplexer is a good unit. Get it tuned professionally and a home repeater should not have issues. Im not a fan of the antenna you picked but I prefer quality. the DB404 would be ideal but know folks dont like the look of it or the price. If you want a small fiberglass stick look at the Laird FG series in the other links on the page. You will find them a much better build than a put together antenna. 
Manage expectations. I know you want 20 miles. If you can talk that simplex then your repeater may play nice. The GM300 is a good little radio. Built many repeaters in my shop days out of the same parts you mentioned and many are still in service today. The GM is not a continuous duty radio so make sure you have a fan on it also. 
 

So first thing I would try to do is get your antenna cable alot shorter than 100' between antenna and repeater. Unless its going up a tower the closest is the best. Even LMR will have almost 3dblossi n 100'. That just took your 25 watt repeater to 12.5 and that no duplexer. You will have loss there also. 
The duplexer is a good unit. Get it tuned professionally and a home repeater should not have issues. Im not a fan of the antenna you picked but I prefer quality. the DB404 would be ideal but know folks dont like the look of it or the price. If you want a small fiberglass stick look at the Laird FG series in the other links on the page. You will find them a much better build than a put together antenna. 
Manage expectations. I know you want 20 miles. If you can talk that simplex then your repeater may play nice. The GM300 is a good little radio. Built many repeaters in my shop days out of the same parts you mentioned and many are still in service today. The GM is not a continuous duty radio so make sure you have a fan on it also. 
 

"Not expensive" and "long range" in radio usually don't belong on the same sentence. If you want long range out of UHF, be prepared to sped time and money.
As for antenna, the Laird FG-4603 would be my next choice if you don't want a folded dipole array, which I would strongly recommend. There is a Harvest 2-bay dipole available on eBay that might be a good compromise.
Manage expectations: 20 miles from base to a portable, reliably, and out of UHF GMRS will require a decent location, a tall tower/mast and very good antenna (which doesn't develop high SWR after 3 months of being installed), a good feedline (probably look into heliax 1/2" at the very least if you really need a 100' run). And a very good radio/repeater with a receiver that will not get overwhelmed when mated to a good antenna placed that high. Most likely you'll need additional filtering if you use low end stuff.
G.

I recall when my previous employer in the oil industry started to receive Motorola Trbo XPR8400 repeaters and XPR6550 handhelds. I used my Aeroflex 3550A test set to check for receive sensitivity (UHF), which was between 0.17-0.20 uV. My boss said "I don't believe you", so he walked down to the lab and grabbed a few handhelds and checked for himself. He was impressed, as previous radios (Motorola PR1500's) were no around  0.25-0.35 uV, everything else being the same. In spec for UHF, but not as good as the digital capable handhelds. The XPR8400's and Quantars were essentially the same, with the XPR series repeater having digital capability, it was a one for one swap infrastructure wise. Those surplus UHF Quantars ended up in many local Auxiliary Communication Service (ACS) roles ever since (this was around 2010 or so). Quantars are one of the best repeaters ever made, and will serve any person or organization well.

Could be related to intermod in the TX. When some RF gets into your transmitter, the range drops like a rock...

Beyond having a very sensitive (hot) front end, the Quantar was also very selective, a difficult combination to achieve. 
I'm surprised to hear that the Quantar transmitter at 50 watts greatly out-performed the Kenwood transmit at 50 watts. I'd have to think that the Kenwood was falling short in either Deviation or it was off frequency. Lesser radios do tend to have some frequency drift as they warm up. The good stuff will be rock steady on frequency center.  
The biggest thing I've noticed with Quantars (and their cousins the MTR2000) is that all the internal audio processing is done with PCM (pulse coded modulation) - so any noise or hum is filtered out, and only the audio is passed. That would effectively mean that the MTR's and Quantars were full quieting with a receive signal strength of less than .35uV (around -116 dBm)  - which is where many commercial radios are just beginning to break squelch. 

+1 on this.....but then there is the joke, just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should do something. I once saw in the military, a Marine connect about 100 feet of RG-58 coax onto an Icom IC-F43GS handheld radio. Upon further inspection, I noticed it was not even a continuous length of coax, but several lengths of RG-58 with BNC connectors and barrel adapters in between each segment (and adapter at the antenna connection to the radio). He wondered why he could not hear anyone or get out during transmit. This became a training moment on radio theory and coax line loss.

Congrats!!, it sounds like you've reached the same conclusion I've reached as well. Motorola is not hype as they would have you believe, that is for sure.
Totally agree, experience wins a lot of contests, for sure.
@gortex2The only reason the "do it cheap crowd" gets away with their cheap stuff because guys like @JB007Ruleshave spent 5 figures on their repeater setup, so the overpriced pieces of garbage trash CCR radios have any hopes of working: Simple as that.
Well, I think depends on what 30 dollar radio you are talking about, but in general most cheap radios mated to a 1k antenna will desense really bad, so you'll end up with a deaf radio. You'll need to add several hundreds of dollars of filtering to the 30$ radio front end (or lack thereof) just to make it work.
I am certain the ISOtee on that Quantar is off-the-charts good... and all Kenwood radios I've ISOteed were not that great. Even the Vertex Standard radios were only marginally better, but there was a jump going from everything else to Motorola, even the 6550 receiver beats every Kenwood radio I've tested to date.
Tuning goes a very very long way (understatement here). as I've found that tuning the radios correctly can make the difference between 3 miles and 30 miles with ease!!
Given the cost of used Motorola gear, IMO, once your eyes are opened, there is no reason to ever go back to inferior equipment.
G.
EDIT: Forgot to say this (again), but there is a reason why the longest running, furthest reaching radios ever made by humanity are made by Motorola. Yes, the Voyager probes have Motorola radios...  been running non-stop since the 70s, and they are past the Heliosphere, or about 14.4 billion miles from Earth (as of 11/2021)... so, if you want range, think only Motorola (except the R7 turd... ) How far does your light shine?
 

As a former Zetron/JVC/Kenwood Group engineer, I'll second the, "I'll spend my money on Motorola first" epiphany, due to real world experience. Great write up on the details and advice given here. Currently, I am sitting on about 100 corporate Quantar repeaters, 800 MHz units that served the company well for a decade, only to be replaced with GTR8000's as a planned replacement/upgrade. They sit in storage until a new site needs to be stood up, as they just work. I mentioned how they were the "cockroach" of the radio world when corporate wanted me to surplus them, as they would probably still work throughout the next ice age, doing their job until something physically breaks. Sadly, 800 MHz spectrum is becoming hard to come by, and I wish they had been UHF 450-470 MHz Quantars, as they would be more useful to me now in 2022. Like the OP, I will not be getting rid of any of my Kenwood gear either, but look at the use case and decide from that what to spend. (Often being Motorola, but I did buy a Radioddity GM-30/DB20-G package and an Anytone AT-878DUV II Plus a while back as well.) 
Also a +1 on SunnyComm, has worked with them for many years as well. Out of several hundred radios, only two were ever received in non-working order, both due to damage in shipment. However, they made good on them, and have a great repair policy as well. Will continue to work with them as much as possible. Great people, and business there. (I have made purchases on behalf of my employer and my own hobby use with Used-Radios.com/SunnyComm.)

Thanks for the real world experience from a repeater owner. When some folks talk about spending good funds on doing it right it gets over shadowed by the do it cheap crowd. I ran very similar equipment for SAR up until last year more because we can only afford what we can afford. 2 sites had the Kenwood TKR850 (VHF). All sites got replaced with Quantars and also went simulcast. Granted its night and day with simulcast but the biggest advantage is the sound quality in my book. It sounds like a radio. Good luck with your site. 

Preface:  This thread isn’t to start a war against 2 different manufactures…  you do you!  I’m sharing the FACTS of what I’ve done here and the experiences that me and my users have had!  You can leave the arguments off this thread!  Kayyyyyy, thanks, bye!
 
I have to share this success story because it’s worth everyone reading IMO.  I will start by stating that I’m well over 5 figures in on the Rugged 575 repeater in Naperville, IL on a commercial tower which has the receive antenna at the top at 300’ and the transmit 50’ further down at 250’ (Which I paid to install).  It’s been quite a learning experience and I don’t care how much money you may have; experience wins here!  You can check the repeater listing for the back-story and read from the bottom up:  https://mygmrs.com/repeater/3838
 
I’ve had this repeater on air since 8/17/2020.  As a whole, it’s worked VERY well for what I need for my family and for the hobby in the suburbs of Chicago.  While it doesn’t have near the traffic as other local repeaters (Joliet 550 which is another local only repeater (Not linked) which is also taller), it’s stayed on the air 24/7/365 with zero down time.  The repeater was the VERY CHEAPEST component in this ENTIRE build with the antenna, feed line, and tower climbers costing FARRRRRRRRRR MORE of course.  In the words of Corey, a $1,000 radio with a $30 antenna is a $30 radio and a $30 radio with a $1,000 antenna is a $1,000 radio.  This is and always will remain true and he is correct 100%.
 
With this theory, off I was with a cheap $365 Kenwood TKR-850 which was also aligned by Corey up in Wisconsin (Thanks again for your help here sir!) with a massive antenna and feed line system.  It worked VERY well for the last year and a half and is still a working backup system at this point.  I was also lucky to finally tie into the sites master UHF receive antenna at the top through a 1-8 split multi-coupler (so no duplexer as I’m using 2 different antennas) which made ALL the difference in the world VS using 1 antenna with a duplexer.
 
Fast forward a year and a half later we come to the Motorola Quantar which I finally had the time to take on and install and has been installed for about 2 weeks now with ZERO changes since I left the tower site!  This Motorola Quantar repeater *IS*, up until now 2/26/2022, the best repeater you can get according to the people I’m surrounded by that know more than I do about it – You all know who you are!  They are *ALL* right (again, I never said they were wrong!).  I never doubted them or thought they were wrong, but I wasn’t “in tune” with the whole, IMO, “overhyped” Motorola game to say the least.  (Can you blame me?!)  Here it is in plain text:  I WAS WRONG ABOUT MOTOROLA.  In particular the receive is INSANE, which always has been the selling point of this particular repeater and it’s one of the main reasons why this repeater excels over Kenwood (and others I’m sure but I cannot comment as I have no personal experience) ...  It’s hard to fully explain in writing but the Quantar has *ALL* the things that “normal” repeaters (any brand other than Motorola) simply don’t have and simply put, it runs C-I-R-C-L-E-S around the Kenwood TKR-850.  Without getting too complicated, a pre-selector being the most important part is key here combined with a receiver that makes a Kenwood look like a children’s play toy.  The experts that know more about it can explain better but it’s more of a “system” than “just a repeater”.  This is why it takes up 3 times more rack space and sucks down electricity like Darjeeling even at standby…
 
Anyways, getting on 2 separate antennas with 50’ of vertical separation was the first BIG step basically doubling the usable coverage especially for hand held radios which was done last year.  The 2nd step was the Quantar which doubled everything yet again.  Many of you see Quantars on Ebay for $800 or $1,000 bucks and its hit or miss… I can assure you that by the time you’re done getting it CORRECTLY tuned and shipping it to and back, you can simply DOUBLE that number.  I’ll put the numbers below so you can actually see but it’s NOT cheap.  Sunny Communications out of Cali has done me right numerous times and they are the one that provided this Quantar this time too!
 
Now for the tuning:  A big shout out to Mark Dannon at Northcomm in Plano, TX.  This man deserves a gold medal and is a FORCE to reckon with.  His intelligence, experience, and overall willingness to not only help and DO IT RIGHT from beginning to end is just the start in addition to his post-sales support.  He has equipment that your normal “radio shop” simply doesn’t have, and he *DOES* do it better.  I’d even challenge ANY radio shop to tune a Qunatar, then send it to him and he’d make it even better.  I’m LITERALLY not a spokes person for this guy or his company and I am *NOT* being paid to put this review here but what he has *IS BETTER* than any other “radio shop” and he specializes in Motorola Quantars too.  I have to iterate this loud and clear that your repeater is only as good as the equipment that tuned it and this guy has it all dialed in and WILL run circles around others even with “$40,000 worth of equipment” (measly) … Trust me here as he has far more than that…
 
In closing, I want to state some insane improvements which the numbers show in plain text proving its worth.  I’m redacting names and call signs but if you read this and recognize the scenario then you know who you are!!
 
1) A gentleman in the SAME TOWN only 6 miles east, in a VERY, VERY hard to service area in low elevation next to several high rises blocking the signal couldn’t even get in on an HT 6 miles away, had to stand on his balcony to BARELY SCRAPE IN now get in now gets in FULL QUIETING on a 5W HT anywhere in his apartment.
2) A gentleman 59 miles away who could barely scrape in 2/10 quality on his 50W mobile and couldn’t even hear the repeater on his HT now gets in 9/10 almost full quieting on his mobile and can hear a conversation loud and clear in his living room on an HT 59 miles away with the same 50W of power going back out.  Even better, he can get in 4-5/10 quality on his 5W HT but he has to be OUTSIDE to do so…  Literally how is this possible… The curvature of the earth alone is in the way.  No this isn’t a band opening; this is EVERY DAY….
3) Personally, I could scrape in with a 1/10 quality (literally all static) on the first level of my sister’s house in Downers Grove, IL which is only a measly 11.15 miles away from the tower is now 8/10 almost full quieting on the first level on a 5W HT (Tree city, trust me here).  Was 6/10 on house level 2 is now 10/10 loud & booming full quieting from the 2nd level of her house on the same 5W HT.
4) Another gentleman hasn’t EVER even been able to even key the repeater from his work on a 5W HT can now get in with a 7/10 in quality.  More perfection…
5) And for me personally… I’m only 9.5 miles from the repeater at my house…. Not far, right?  Except when I wiggled/moved around just a bit people couldn’t tell I was moving around…. Now I can be crazy with my 5W HT and hold it sideways like you see in the movies (DUMB), walk around while talking and literally no one even notices…  Literally no picket – fencing…  Like some magical sorcery…
 
Literally I’m not making this up…  Upon talking to others, we’ve noted that the Kenwood TKR-850 was a $1200 - $1600 repeater when new VS the Quantar being $20,000 - $25,000 new…. Well, it shows…  Damn does it show…
 
I’d encourage ANY wide area repeater owner to upgrade whatever system you have to a Motorola Quantar (With the right tuning!!!) and TRUST me, you and your users will be glad you did.  I’m not knocking Kenwood (Well I am for their repeaters) but literally the Quantar has it beat hand over fist!  Sorry, this might sting to some but for others it’s a “Duh, I told you so” situation!  I still have THOUSANDS of dollars’ worth of GOOD Kenwood radios…  (NX300’s, NX800 Mobiles, TK8360’s, etc etc etc) and I’m *NOT* going to go and replace them all…. I’m still going to use them; but I’ll be DAMNED if I don’t think twice…. THREE times before considering another radio purchase and trust me, I have a LOT of radios lol!
 
They say Motorola invented the 2-way radio and now I see how & why.
 
Thanks for your time and feel free to comment and leave questions below.  I’ll do my best to answer them between work and life.

In 20+ years of GMRS we never had chatter of nets. It wasn't until the ham lite crown came over to GMRS. Remember GMRS used to be a service for a family and was never used in the ways it is now. Its not a bad thing just different than why I got into GMRS and many did in the early years. Been in public safety for 20+ years and have never heard a net on any public safety system either. It may happen but in the NE you wont hear it unless you scan the ham bands. 
I guess I look at the linking thing as a change also to GMRS thats not always good. HAM did alot of this and I know of repeaters that are now usesless as all you hear is ragchewing all day from half way across the US. Kinda killed some repeaters for local use. 

Nope. Sorry Im not a fan of nets. They should be on Ham radio in my opinion. A national net just ties up repeaters when no one is listening to them.

I still use the Bird 43 at home and most of my hobby stuff. for work we use the R&S®NRT-Z Power Sensors. Its slick but not cheap. 

I wanted to throw out of post of good commercial antenna's that work great for GMRS as well as other LMR applications. Every antenna listed I have used for home and on towers and have had little if any issues with. 
Laird - Laird FG Series is a great antenna for home use and limited tower site use. Great for a home repeater when a tower is not available. Mostly omni. 
FG4500 - Unity Gain Fiberglass Antenna N Female 100W 450-470mhz - Cost around $125
FG4603 - 3db Gain Fiberglass Antenna N female 100W 460-470  - Cost around $140
FG4605 - 7db Gain Fiberglass Antenna N Female 100W 460-470 - Cost around $200
 
You can get more specifications from Laird here - FG Series Antennas
I get most of my hobby antennas from The Antenna Farm
The next step up is the dipole antenna and is normally the base antenna I'll install on a tower site. The DB aka CommScope Dipole is a rock solid performer and works well in long term use. I have used these in the ADK park on mountains caked in ice to towers in SE VA and other than physical damage never replaced one. 
DB404 - 3.8db Gain Dipole Antenna - N Male 250W 450-470mhz - Cost around $500
DB408 - 6.6db Gain Dipole Antenna - N Make 250W 450-470mhz - Cost around $1000
You can get more specifications from CommScope here - CommScope
I use various vendors for CommScope gear. Antenna Farm linked above does carry the DB404 as does MyGMRS. MyGMRS would be my first choice as it helps support the site and forum. His price is comparable to what I get it for from Tessco. 
When looking at an antenna also remember the cable to the antenna to be almost as important as the antenna. Putting a DB408 on a tower isn't going to perform as expected when you run LMR400 to it. It should be LDF. In reality if its on a tower it should be LDF anyway. 
Some real case uses of antenna''s above for me. My 38' Motorhome has a GMRS repeater. for years I ran the GR1225 and since have switch to the RT97. I run the FG4500 on my ladder and it works perfect for camgrounds/race track use. I have used the FG4605 for years on a repeater at my fathers house. He had a small mast system and it was a great match. I ran 1/2 LDF up the mast and to the antenna. The DB404 is my favorite. Thats what I have at home on a 1 1/4" Pipe on my roof. I run the DB408 at the tower with 7/8" LDF down to the combiner/duplexers. 
Just wanted to get some info out there on better antennas and options. TRAM, Comet, Ed Fong are all that. They are hobby antenna's and may not meet expectations. Some even cost the same.