Ham Radio 2.0 Coverage of Low-band Channels for GMRS

[marcspaz]

 

As some of you know, my friend Mike submitted a petition for rule making to the FCC to expand GMRS into some low-band frequencies. Ham Radio 2.0 covered an article about it and does a good job explaining the basics...

 

 

 

 

[BoxCar]

Not needed for a personal radio service intended for local ccommunications

[WRYZ926]

Plus the fact that 46 or 49 MHz won't do any better than the 6m band currently does. I know because I have used 30-70 MHz all over the world while in the military. Most of the time we had to have some sort of relay station setup to get any kind of useful range.

[marcspaz]

The point is to expand  beyond short-range local comms, particularly for emergencies.  300w repeater systems would definitely help a lot in areas like what we are in here in the DC Metro area, the northern Mid-Atlantic and northeastern US. There was one 10m repeater that was at 100w that covered a huge amount of the area, but it's been off the air for years and GMRS isn't getting the job done for many families and EMCOMM volunteers. 

 

I support it and comfortably put it in the category of you don't have to use it if you don't want to. It certainly doesn't hurt anyone or the service to provide extra frequencies. Shoot... the biggest complaint I see/hear is that there are so few channels and the space is crowded in metro areas. Why not support it if it will reallocate unused frequencies and give users more options? (That was rhetorical, of course)

[OffRoaderX]

Never gunna happen... Bookmark this comment and let's follow up in 5 years so I can say "told 'ya so!" ...

[marcspaz]

@OffRoaderX I doubt it's going to happen, too. But, I do still support it.

[WRYZ926]

There is a 16 page thread on this subject over on the Radio Reference forum that got shut down today when someone involved with the proposal got snotty with everyone that pointed out the negatives about the proposal.

I'm not saying that unused portions of the VHF low band do not have their uses. But it is not the beat all fix all solution to add it to GMRS as some think.

All of us that have our amateur licenses know how fickle the 6m band can be even for local communications let alone long distance coms. 

I've used military FM radios on the 30-70 MHz all over the world. The VHF low band works in wide open areas with no local noise floor. But get into heavy forested areas and/or mountainous terrain and you will need some type of relay station to get out very far. And just like the 6m band, you would need a high power amplifier to get out over long distances. That isn't going to happen with hand held or mobile radios.

Another issue is that law enforcement in some states still use that portion of the VHF low band as a backup system. I know Missouri still does.

Again, I'm not against opening up a portion of the VHF low band outside of 6m. But we have to be realistic on how it will work and the downfalls of VHF low band.

[nokones]

I think it would be a good idea to have some lowband VHF channels allocated for the Personal Radio Service with repeater operation like GMRS. Finding vault and tower space and services for a lowband VHF remote repeater will be challenging and may discourage such a project.

 

The geographical lowband plan still exist and requires frequency coordination, pursuant to Part 90 rules and regs. At this time, it doesn't appear there are any lowband VHF spectrum allocated/available for the Personal and/or Amateur Radio Services.

30 - Business Radio

31 - Forestry Conservation and Business Radio

33 - Fire

35 - Business Radio

37 - Police

39 - Police

42 - State Police Only

43 - Business Radio

44 - Some Police and Some Business Radio

45 -Police

46 - Fire

47 - Highways & Roads

48 - Utilities

49 - Business Radio

32, 34, 36, 38, 40, and 41 - These freqs are not regulated by Part 90 and the FCC. They may be allocated to and regulated by NTIA.

[WRUE951]

21 minutes ago, nokones said:

I think it would be a good idea to have some lowband VHF channels allocated for the Personal Radio Service with repeater operation like GMRS. Finding vault and tower space and services for a lowband VHF remote repeater will be challenging and may discourage such a project.

 

The geographical lowband plan still exist and requires frequency coordination, pursuant to Part 90 rules and regs. At this time, it doesn't appear there are any lowband VHF spectrum allocated/available for the Personal and/or Amateur Radio Services.

30 - Business Radio

31 - Forestry Conservation and Business Radio

33 - Fire

35 - Business Radio

37 - Police

39 - Police

42 - State Police Only

43 - Business Radio

44 - Some Police and Some Business Radio

45 -Police

46 - Fire

47 - Highways & Roads

48 - Utilities

49 - Business Radio

32, 34, 36, 38, 40, and 41 - These freqs are not regulated by Part 90 and the FCC. They may be allocated to and regulated by NTIA.

I agree.. 

[WRUE951]

13 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

Never gunna happen... Bookmark this comment and let's follow up in 5 years so I can say "told 'ya so!" ...

its got a way better chance of happening then Linking on GMRS..  You might be wrong on this one..   I woild give it a better chance though.  maybe in 2 years.. Lets Bookmark that comment... Looser buys the other a ice cold tall beer  

[Davichko5650]

10 hours ago, WRYZ926 said:

 

I've used military FM radios on the 30-70 MHz all over the world.

Back in my ASA/INSCOM days we used to mess with the poor hams on 6m when we were practicing ECM. Most were pretty cool once we explained that A, we weren't governed by any FCC regulations and B, we were the primary users of the band. Some got a bit "Sad Hammy" on us, but 1500 watts does wonders on VHF.

[WRUE951]

14 hours ago, marcspaz said:

 

As some of you know, my friend Mike submitted a petition for rule making to the FCC to expand GMRS into some low-band frequencies. Ham Radio 2.0 covered an article about it and does a good job explaining the basics...

 

 

I wrote the FCC in favor of this petition and also suggested in my letter if the FCC favored this proposal they should also use this opportunity to clean up the exisitng GMRS rules and clarify existting rules.  I.e. Limit GMRS repeater ownership to 3 or less, do not permit cross state GMRS Repeater ownership, clarify rules related to 'charging for use of a repeater". Rewrite current rules on Linking so that it is clear the practice is simply illegal and take the confusion of other networks out of the rules.  ..   This wold be a great opportunity for the FCC to clean up all the gray areas with the rules..  One of my buddies in Riverside (FCC) office says this proposal actulliy has some traction..   The more we write in favor of this the better chance it has.  

[WRYZ926]

42 minutes ago, Davichko5650 said:

Back in my ASA/INSCOM days we used to mess with the poor hams on 6m when we were practicing ECM. Most were pretty cool once we explained that A, we weren't governed by any FCC regulations and B, we were the primary users of the band. Some got a bit "Sad Hammy" on us, but 1500 watts does wonders on VHF.

We got in trouble with the local TV station in Rolla, MO when I was stationed at Ft Leonardwood. We would have the basic trainees tune the PRC77 radios to the TV station and one trainee keyed up the mic. It didn't take long for the TV station to call the post commander's office to complain.

We would occasionally upset some sad ham within the 6m band. But as you stated, once we told them whoever we were and that we were the primary users, complaints stopped.

The PRC25 and PRC77, along with vehicle mounted radios have a low band (30 - 50 MHz) and a high band (51 - 70 MHZ). The SINCGARS frequency hopping radios use 30 - 88 MHz.

The state of Missouri still uses 42, 44, and 46 MHZ for public safety and emergency management. Granted these frequencies are more as a backup system now days. And other states still use the VHF low band also. So that will need to be taken into consideration with the propels to add VHF Low to GMRS or even to amateur radio.

[Davichko5650]

32 minutes ago, WRYZ926 said:

We got in trouble with the local TV station in Rolla, MO

When I was at Ft Devens learning the whys and wherefores of ECM/ECCM, we had a window of time to Jam the FM Audio on a local TV station. Using a Dummy Load running 1500w, we would still jam TV sets within a 1 mile radius of the Transmitter (AN/TLQ-17).  Lotsa of fun changing the dialog on the Soaps. That and SERE Training were the most fun I had before my PCS.

[marcspaz]

12 hours ago, WRYZ926 said:

There is a 16 page thread on this subject over on the Radio Reference forum that got shut down today when someone involved with the proposal got snotty with everyone that pointed out the negatives about the proposal.

 

That was probably Jack.  He has that effect on people. LoL  I was with him in the beginning of the project. It was his idea.  Mike is the one with the experience. So Mike is driving the proposal.  Jack is a nice kid and has good intentions, but he is very abrasive (can't accept being wrong) so it makes it hard to get along with him.  Sadly, while I like him, he is the #1 reason I dropped out of the project.

  

12 hours ago, WRYZ926 said:

I'm not saying that unused portions of the VHF low band do not have their uses. But it is not the beat all fix all solution to add it to GMRS as some think.

All of us that have our amateur licenses know how fickle the 6m band can be even for local communications let alone long distance coms. 

 

Agreed.  There is no one solution.  Personally, I like the idea because it has potential to do some good for Joe Q. Homeowner who doesn't need an experimental or business class radio license.  However, Amateur Radio 80m through 70cm, combined with Satellite and Cellular is the closest thing we can get to having a complete tool kit.

 

1 hour ago, Davichko5650 said:

Back in my ASA/INSCOM days we used to mess with the poor hams on 6m when we were practicing ECM. Most were pretty cool once we explained that A, we weren't governed by any FCC regulations and B, we were the primary users of the band. Some got a bit "Sad Hammy" on us, but 1500 watts does wonders on VHF.

 

I'm pretty sure that is not correct.  Everything I can find says that Amateur Radio is the primary assigned service, and the military and other federal agencies are authorized to utilize the 50-54 MHz band in the United States as a secondary or non-interference basis to amateur operations.  If there is something different, I would love to see if you can share it with us... I can't find anything.

 

https://www.ntia.gov/files/ntia/Spectrum_Use_Summary_Master-06212010.pdf#:~:text=The military agencies operate radio communication systems,in this band on a non-interference basis.

https://www.ntia.gov/sites/default/files/2023-11/4_2021_edition_rev_2023.pdf

[Davichko5650]

13 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

 

That was probably Jack.  He has that effect on people. LoL  I was with him in the beginning of the project. It was his idea.  Mike is the one with the experience. So Mike is driving the proposal.  Jack is a nice kid and has good intentions, but he is very abrasive (can't accept being wrong) so it makes it hard to get along with him.  Sadly, while I like him, he is the #1 reason I dropped out of the project.

  

 

Agreed.  There is no one solution.  Personally, I like the idea because it has potential to do some good for Joe Q. Homeowner who doesn't need an experimental or business class radio license.  However, Amateur Radio 80m through 70cm, combined with Satellite and Cellular is the closest thing we can get to having a complete tool kit.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that is not correct.  Everything I can find says that Amateur Radio is the primary assigned service, and the military and other federal agencies are authorized to utilize the 50-54 MHz band in the United States as a secondary or non-interference basis to amateur operations.  If there is something different, I would love to see if you can share it with us... I can't find anything.

 

https://www.ntia.gov/files/ntia/Spectrum_Use_Summary_Master-06212010.pdf#:~:text=The military agencies operate radio communication systems,in this band on a non-interference basis.

https://www.ntia.gov/sites/default/files/2023-11/4_2021_edition_rev_2023.pdf

This was a couple years  before there was an NTIA, so unsure. But what's done is done!