Brand Name radios Pros/Cons thread. (Used/New)

[gman1971]

So, as AdmiralCochrane pointed out on another thread... there isn't a main thread where the pros/cons of brand, non CCR, name radios are explained, so beginners don't fall on the Cheap China Radios trap... thinking they are getting a killer deal, when they are not. The question for this thread is: Why are used, and usually older, brand name radios a much better value than most Cheap China Radios? or CCRs?

 

Most of those 2nd hand brand radios, Motorola, Kenwood, ICOM, et. all are perfectly functional radios, some might have scratches, dirt, etc, but they are no longer being used b/c the company upgraded to fancier models, usually with color screens and lots of buttons to click around, etc...

 

The best example I can think of this are the XPR 4550/6550 Gen1 MotoTRBO radios (DMR) which are, as measured, still pretty darn good radios for the money; obviously the Gen2 have even better receivers, and fancier screens, with more buttons in some cases. 

 

So, I'll start with the XPR 6550 portable series. First I'll put the price I've seen on average on eBay, then some pros/cons. Average price doesn't mean its always that way, some go for much higher, others have gone for much lower. 135 is the average of what I paid for all my 6550 radios, so its not a made up number.

 

Average cost: $135 USD, eBay. Usually includes charger and battery, both tend to be genuine as well. Some might even include programming CD too..

Cost of programming cable: 35-85 bucks, 85 being Moto genuine cable, 35 being the no brand one. I have one of each. 

 

Pros:

-High performance, tunable, varactor Front End. (Radio won't become useless (desense) when other strong signals are around)

-The last superhet dual conversion in the XPR line AFAIK.

-LCD backlit screen. (6550 model)

-Motorola SMA connector. (same as Baofeng, ugh... blasphemy... Motorola and Baofeng should never be in the same sentence hahaha )

-Lots of inexpensive accessories, including batteries and chargers, if you want to keep costs down vs. the genuine Moto accesories. 

-FM and DMR digital (Tier II)

-Battery on digital will last a very long time.

-Submersible, and the brand name Motorola shoulder mics are also submersible too.

-Nearly indestructible... don't ask me how I know this.

-Microphone can also sport an antenna without an additional cable, since the side pinout has a coaxial RF out. (very handy feature)

-Loud, in fact its so darn loud you can use it in place of an alarm clock.

-Several audio tuning features, which improves audio quality to your liking.

-A ton of "community" support.

-Very easy, and affordable, to replace the entire housing if it ever breaks. 

-Service manuals to fix nearly anything that might wrong.

 

Cons

-Single band.

-Bigger than average... its not a brick, but its much bigger than say, a TH-F6a... 

-CPS can be challenging at first... it was quite daunting for me when I first moved into DMR style CPS/radios... but once you get the hang of it there is no going back.

-No VFO, if you like that sort of thing. I thought I would miss that, I haven't, and I think its been nearly a year since I stopped carrying my Alinco MD5...

-Rotary knob cannot be locked when the keypad is locked. Can be frustrating, but you put the holster loop around the antenna so its not a problem.

-16 channels per zone. This one was somewhat of a pain... since the Rotary Encoder only has 16 positions, the channel per zone is just 16. I split the GMRS channels into FRS and GMRS channel zones, so I could fit 14 FRS use and 16 for GMRS use, 12.5 vs 20.

-Needs an entitlement to do 25kHz, which can be obtained free from Motorola.

-Only Part 90.

 

 

G.

[berkinet]

Thanks to @gman1971 for starting up this thread.

 

For the P1225  (this is just for starters, I suspect others will have additional comments on this radio)

Pros:

• Easily found on eBay and other online sites as well as swap meets, hamventions, etc.
• Programming software is much easier to find than for other, newer, Motorola products.
• Lots of accessories available from other vendors: Chargers, mics, batteries...
• Solid radio. Almost indestructible 
• Non-working radios available for a song for spare parts if needed.
• Good quality electronics, rev and xmt are clean. 
• Well known radio. Lots of online support.
• Part95 compliant. 

 

Cons:

• Rcv/xmt quality, while infinitely better than CCRs, is nowhere near that of more modern Motorola radios.
• No Li-Ion batteries
• Many aftermarket batteries are junk.
• Because it uses NiCad or NiMh batteries, the radio cannot be left on and sitting in most cheap chargers.
• Often the radios that can be found are in ok condition. But, need a charger, battery and antenna, this can double the price, or more.
• Most models have no display. The models with display are hard to find.
• Bigger and heavier than newer hand-helds
• Programming software requires older Windows systems (XP or Win-7). However, they can be run in a Virtual Machine.

[jec6613]

So, since this is the GMRS forums, which one of these are part 95 compliant?  Because, sometimes, it's not academic if they are or aren't.

[AdmiralCochrane]

A point to remember, even though Part 90 radios are normally illegal to TRANSMIT on the GMRS band/channels, there is the emergency use exception when human life and limb are in danger; sort of a Good Samaritan rule.  The ability to do this in disaster situations is a valuable asset.  

 

As scanners and receivers, they are 100% legal to RECEIVE GMRS transmissions at all times.

[AdmiralCochrane]

So, since this is the GMRS forums, which one of these are part 95 compliant?  Because, sometimes, it's not academic if they are or aren't.

 

A long running thread on this exact subject on radio reference.com 

 

https://forums.radioreference.com/threads/part-95-gmrs-radio-list.275040/

[berkinet]

A point to remember, even though Part 90 radios are normally illegal to TRANSMIT on the GMRS band/channels,...

The topic of the use of un-certified radios on GMRS, including Part-15, Part-90 and Part-97 gear, has been: discussed, argued, debated, nuanced, bantered, ridiculed, promoted and otherwise been beaten well past death on MyGMRS,com.

 

It certainly is worthwhile to note any certification a given radio might have. Be it as a pro, con, or simple comment.  But, please let's keep this thread to a simple presentation of brand name UHF radios that work on the GMRS frequencies and not get into that discussion again on this thread.

[n4gix]

One "Con" for the XPR7550 (Gen 1) is the proprietary antenna port that does not allow one to connect to an external antenna. There is a rather expensive testing adapter that a bench technician can use during transmitter alignment, but it requires partial disassembly of the case in order to use... 

[gman1971]

n4gix:

 The XPR 6550  (SIX FIVE FIVE ZERO) is a Gen 1 TRBO radio, and uses a regular SMA connector... The one you have, the XPR7550 (SEVEN FIVE FIVE ZERO) that is a Gen 2 TRBO radio, which uses the bolt antenna you mention (same for the 7550e) I found performance on the 7550e to be superior to the 6550 no matter what SMA portable antenna I used in there, give a reasonable similar length, that is. I know a 1/4 wave magmount is going to beat any rubberduck... but I don't carry my 6550 on my belt with a 1/4 wave VHF antenna... 

 

One "Con" for the XPR7550 (Gen 1) is the proprietary antenna port that does not allow one to connect to an external antenna. There is a rather expensive testing adapter that a bench technician can use during transmitter alignment, but it requires partial disassembly of the case in order to use... 

[Lscott]

Cons

-No VFO, if you like that sort of thing. I thought I would miss that, I haven't, and I think its been nearly a year since I stopped carrying my Alinco MD5...

 

That may not be as big a negative as you would think.

 

Looking at the ARRL band plan for the 70cm band the simplex section isn't that big. So, on some of my Kenwood radios I programed in a series of simplex frequencies like 446.000, 446.025, 446.050 etc. You can look at your area to see what they typical channel spacing is. The memory names were 446-000, 446-025, 446-050 etc. Now when I rotate the channel selector it sort of looks like a VFO. Not perfect but does a good job. The radios I have use "zones" so the "VFO" channels were assigned to its own zone for convenience.

 

Other zones were assigned the GMRS channels, repeaters etc. That kept everything organized. Then I programmed one of the function keys to switch zones.

 

Even with a 128 channel radio I was able to cover most of the simplex sections with a few repeaters and the GMRS channels too. If you can find a radio with 250 or more channels you likely can cover everything with spare memory channels for future use.

[jec6613]

A point to remember, even though Part 90 radios are normally illegal to TRANSMIT on the GMRS band/channels, there is the emergency use exception when human life and limb are in danger; sort of a Good Samaritan rule.  The ability to do this in disaster situations is a valuable asset.  

 

As scanners and receivers, they are 100% legal to RECEIVE GMRS transmissions at all times.

 

To clarify, if you're assisting in a disaster but don't meet the requirements of immediate threat to life/property, you can't legally transmit in GMRS either.

 

And nobody ever answered my question of if they're certified or not...

[berkinet]

...And nobody ever answered my question of if they're certified or not...

Which radios are you speaking about?

[gman1971]

I totally agree, while it wasn't a drawback for me.... I figured I'd put it out there, so people are aware... I did something like what you did. I have all the itinerants in UHF and the Motorola radio "Factory channels" programmed on the 7550e... but then again the 7550e has a much higher pricepoint (IMO worth it, considering the kind of receiver you get)... but...

 

G.

 

That may not be as big a negative as you would think.

 

Looking at the ARRL band plan for the 70cm band the simplex section isn't that big. So, on some of my Kenwood radios I programed in a series of simplex frequencies like 446.000, 446.025, 446.050 etc. You can look at your area to see what they typical channel spacing is. The memory names were 446-000, 446-025, 446-050 etc. Now when I rotate the channel selector it sort of looks like a VFO. Not perfect but does a good job. The radios I have use "zones" so the "VFO" channels were assigned to its own zone for convenience.

 

Other zones were assigned the GMRS channels, repeaters etc. That kept everything organized. Then I programmed one of the function keys to switch zones.

 

Even with a 128 channel radio I was able to cover most of the simplex sections with a few repeaters and the GMRS channels too. If you can find a radio with 250 or more channels you likely can cover everything with spare memory channels for future use.

[gman1971]

Could someone please put a couple of Kenwood portable quick Pros/Cons? Does anyone like ICOM UHF portables?

[Lscott]

Could someone please put a couple of Kenwood portable quick Pros/Cons? Does anyone like ICOM UHF portables?

I can speak to the few Kenwood portables I own. Those are:

 

TK-370G-1 (FCC ID ALH29473110), 128 channel, wide/narrow band setting per channel

TK-3170-1 (FCC ID ALH34713110), 128 channel, wide/narrow band setting per channel

TK-3140-1 (FCC ID ALH32263110), 250 channel, wide/narrow band setting per channel

TK-370-1 (FCC ID ALHTK-370-1), 32 channel, wide band only

TK-3160 (FCC ID ALH36423110), 16 channel, wide/narrow band setting per channel

TK-3360 (FCC ID ALH415100), 16 channel, wide/narrow band setting per channel

 

Pro's:

 

All of the above are Part 90 certified, however the 370G, 3170, 3140 and the 370 are also Part 95 certified thus are perfectly legal to use for GMRS.

 

The 370G and 370 are larger older models, built like a tank and a bit on the heavy side. All the other radios are "palm-sized".

 

Depending on the radio they will take either a nickle metal hydride or lithium ion battery pack. Some will take either one. The battery packs and chargers seem easy to find, original or clone on line.

 

All of the radios, except the 3140, use the standard Kenwood style two pin accessories and use the cheap "Baofeng", cheap Chinese, programming cable. The 3140 however uses the Motorola type multi-pin adapter for accessories and programming cable.

 

I've had good luck finding the programming software with license keys on line. Some have the "engineer's" key which lets you do anything with the radio even if it's password locked.

 

If one wants to use the radios for the Ham 70cm band some model sdo cover 440 MHz and up, or allows entry of frequencies below the lower official band limit, 450 MHz, with a warning popup. The radios will operate there. From what I've read the Kenwood radios seem to work about 5 percent outside of the official band limits so for a lower limit of 450 MHz you likely can get the radio to work down to 440 MHz. I've got mine programed that way, and the simplex along with the repeater section are primarily above 440 MHz anyway. 

 

I've had good luck finding operator and service manuals for these radios as well. 

 

Con's:

 

The radios are typically only 4 watts max output, option to select low of 1 watt. The difference between 5 watts and 4 watts I doubt is noticeable in practice.

 

Chrip doesn't fully support these radios, and with most of them it's very buggy. I highly recommend using the official Kenwood software.

 

They all use, except the 370, the reverse SMA antenna connector you find on just about every cheap Chinese radio. I think, my guess, is when they designed the CCR's they simply copied an existing interface design, looks like they picked Kenwood. The 370's antenna connector however uses the old Motorola screw stud type antenna connector.

 

No true VFO. However on a few of the radios, after removing a configuration diode and enabling the feature in the programming software, the radio can be front panel programmed, but only to a memory slot. I know the -370G is possible since it's covered in the service manual, not sure about the others.

 

Most of the radios do offer some form of security, voice scrambling or inversion, but legally it can't be used, at least not on the Ham or GMRS services. For Part 90 service I don't think that's a problem.

[gman1971]

Thank you! So you can do FPP on those, that is nice, its some sort of VFO, but without scanning, which can still be helpful.

 

G.

 

I can speak to the few Kenwood portables I own. Those are:

 

.

.

.

 

Most of the radios do offer some form of security, voice scrambling or inversion, but legally it can't be used, at least not on the Ham or GMRS services. For Part 90 service I don't think that's a problem.

[berkinet]

Thank you! So you can do FPP on those,...

For the acronym dictionary...

FPP = Front Panel Programming. The ability to set radio configuration parameters without a computer or programming software.

[Lscott]

Thank you! So you can do FPP on those, that is nice, its some sort of VFO, but without scanning, which can still be helpful.

 

G.

Yes. Look on page 11 of the service manual for how it's done for the TK-370G models with full keypads. A hardware mode needs to be done in addition to enabling self programming in the software.

 

http://www.repeater-builder.com/kenwood/pdfs/tk-360g-tk-370g-svc-man.pdf

 

For the older TK-370 32 channel model the instructions are here.

 

http://rsws.zapto.org/radiosoftware/kenwood/Tk270.pdf

 

After looking at how it's done for the 370G I would rather use the software. Trying to do this in the field would be "interesting" to say the least.

[gman1971]

AFAIK, only the Asian region versions of the XPR radios can do FPP...

 

So, does anyone have any ICOM gear they might want to share some insights with the rest of us? I've always wondered about ICOMS, but out of the brand names they seem to be least "promoted"

 

G.

[n4gix]

AFAIK, only the Asian region versions of the XPR radios can do FPP...

 

There is a service listed on eBay who sell a legitimate FPP firmware/CPS package for XPR radios. IIRC it is $299 USD.

[AdmiralCochrane]

AFAIK, only the Asian region versions of the XPR radios can do FPP...

 

So, does anyone have any ICOM gear they might want to share some insights with the rest of us? I've always wondered about ICOMS, but out of the brand names they seem to be least "promoted"

 

G.

 

Always one of the top contenders.   When you are that far ahead, you don't need much push

[gman1971]

That 299 thing is a waste of money, as I've been told in numerous occasions by other Commsupport members, who have tried it, and told me precisely to avoid it at all costs. Quoting some of those people here: "its utter garbage" So I would personally stay away from it, and trusting those people has made my radio range grow tens of miles, and I am no longer stuck at <2 miles on 50W mobile anymore.

 

Again, you are better off with an XiR radio that has a Motorola designed FPP.

 

With that said, I honestly think you won't need it, I could be wrong, but in my experience I haven't had a need to have a VFO or any sort of FPP... even before starting carrying LMR gear, I don't recall ever using VFO or FPP on my GD77, MD5 nor TH-F6a....  The handful of times I've used VFO on the TH-F6a was to listen to HF and AM airband, b/c these days everything is all digital, so you need to buy a digital scanner, with multimode capabilities... Also, the scan speed on all CCRs is pathetic at best... and the XPR7550 and the 6550 can only do 16 channel scan lists, so either way, you are screwed..., you'll be better off buying a dedicated digital scanner.

 

IMO, just program all the Itinerants, Moto LMR radio channels, EMS, Fire Dept, Hospitals, Marine, A large set of Ham repeaters, GMRS, etc etc. basically anything that might come in handy, and you're set. Again, If I wanted to just listen to traffic I'll just encourage you to buy a dedicated Scanner, or an HF rig.

 

If plugging 200 channels by hand is not your thing then there are codeplugs already made for the XPR radios that will have a ton of repeaters already programmed in them, just download and flash.

 

G.

 

There is a service listed on eBay who sell a legitimate FPP firmware/CPS package for XPR radios. IIRC it is $299 USD.

[1URFE57]

I love my iCOM's I got a Commercial grade radios F221-s, F621TR to name a few

 

Pros: Build like a tank, cheap, software is free, cable readily available or you can make your own

 

Cons:Some are front panel programmable but mostly are not.

[gman1971]

TTT, any new radios to add?

 

G.

[Lscott]

The handful of times I've used VFO on the TH-F6a was to listen to HF and AM airband, b/c these days everything is all digital, so you need to buy a digital scanner, with multimode capabilities... Also, the scan speed on all CCRs is pathetic at best... and the XPR7550 and the 6550 can only do 16 channel scan lists, so either way, you are screwed..., you'll be better off buying a dedicated digital scanner.

 

Just a data point here speaking about some Ham HT's. My TH-D74A does multi mode RX from HF up. The scan speed on it is around 20+ channels per second, I've timed it. Its the fastest scanning radio I got. Of course it's not cheap either.

 

About VFO's, yeah I rarely use one. Just about any frequency I'm interested in is programed in one of the memories.

[gman1971]

Yep, the TH-D74a is a nice radio, indeed. But you're limited to NXDN only AFAIK, much the same as Motorola XPR radios are limtied to DMR and analog. I think that if you're interested in snooping around, then buying a scanner is a more viable choice... but again, the good ones aren't cheap either...  which comes as no surprise, anything that is worth owning is not cheap, nor easy.

 

G.