Use of PTT-ID, DTMF

[DonErle]

I assume that this works to limit the use of GMRS repeaters to only certain radio IDs. The repeater owner(s) decide what group of IDs to accept, and the radios that are accepted change their PTT-IDs to one of those numbers. My Wouxun KG-1000G also has menu options for ANI-EDIT and DTMFST. ANI-EDIT sets the caller ID for the radio, but I don't understand exactly how the DTMFST function works with PTT-ID.

 

[mbrun]

I assume that this works to limit the use of GMRS repeaters to only certain radio IDs. The repeater owner(s) decide what group of IDs to accept, and the radios that are accepted change their PTT-IDs to one of those numbers. My Wouxun KG-1000G also has menu options for ANI-EDIT and DTMFST. ANI-EDIT sets the caller ID for the radio, but I don't understand exactly how the DTMFST function works with PTT-ID.
 

Good Day Don.

When the radio is configured to send out its ANI-ID (a.k.a. its PTT Identifier) the radio can be also be configured so this very ID is heard locally by the operator via the speaker. The benefit of hearing it locally is that the person transmitting knows when the ID is being sent out so they do not talk over it.
Given the length of the DTMF sequence sent out, if silent locally, it would be easily for a user to inadvertently talk over it if.

I think you are on the right track with regards to how the ANI-ID may be used in some cases (e.g. repeater access). The way I understand it currently however is that it has has little or practical use in GMRS and probably has no use being on nor being marketed as a “feature” of an GMRS radio. However, when present on a radio used in the commercial or public service space it does have its place. Here is my current understanding:

- Some commercial radio services may require the radio to send out a certain code, perhaps in addition to a PL, to gain access to the repeater.
- Such commercial services, particular third party leased services that share a frequency amongst many different companies may use the codes as a means of metered usage of a repeater. Perhaps the greater the number of times a given ANI-ID is used during a month, the greater the bill for usage.
- When used in a dispatch environment, the received code can be translated to a specific user name so the dispatcher automatically knows who they are talking to without the remote operator having to identify themselves each time.

Hopefully this little nugget of additional insight is useful.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[mbrun]

@ WRHS965: Thank you for the insights into this. You wrote: "Some commercial radio services may require the radio to send out a certain code" Is that to say that GMRS can be used for commercial purposes? As I understand, GMRS is for personal use only. Were you referring to this PTT-ID being a feature that can be integrated into business licences that are not GMRS? 
Respectfully,
WRKI398
 

I believe it is safe to say that the market is too small for manufacturers to make hardware that is 100% specific to the GMRS. Instead what they do is make hardware that can be used for a variety of different services, but mainly for Public Service, Commercial and Amateur radio. Then they adapter it for GMRS. I think they leave some commercial and amateur radio features in the radios to lure folks into buying them because they have “extra” features, even though said features may have no practical use in the GMRS. Quite honestly some of these radios are unnecessarily complex for what the GMRS user really needs or wants.

Yes I was referring (in part) to PTT-ID. There is nothing to say that it could not be used in GMRS, just that is currently has limited or no practical use in the GMRS for the masses, whereas in a commercial or public service application it has had lots of practical use according to some folks I have discussed it with.

If you do have radios that can both transmit a PTT-ID as well as decode and display it, that could potentially be a benefit to you. If you had a family business and perhaps your own repeater that could leverage it in some manner then again it could be beneficial.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[DonErle]

Forgot to mention the options for DTMFST

DT-ST: Activates keypad sidetone

ANI-ST: Activates Caller ID sidetone

DT+ANT: Activates both keypad and Caller ID sidetones

[DonErle]

Very helpful and easy to understand, mbrun. The KG-1000G users manual is generally pretty good at lining out the options, just not very good at how they are practically implemented.

[djxs]

On 7/4/2021 at 6:18 AM, mbrun said:

- Some commercial radio services may require the radio to send out a certain code, perhaps in addition to a PL, to gain access to the repeater.
- Such commercial services, particular third party leased services that share a frequency amongst many different companies may use the codes as a means of metered usage of a repeater. Perhaps the greater the number of times a given ANI-ID is used during a month, the greater the bill for usage.
- When used in a dispatch environment, the received code can be translated to a specific user name so the dispatcher automatically knows who they are talking to without the remote operator having to identify themselves each time.

Hopefully this little nugget of additional insight is useful.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

@ WRHS965: Thank you for the insights into this. You wrote: "Some commercial radio services may require the radio to send out a certain code" Is that to say that GMRS can be used for commercial purposes? As I understand, GMRS is for personal use only. Were you referring to this PTT-ID being a feature that can be integrated into business licences that are not GMRS? 

 

[MacJack]

1 hour ago, mbrun said:

I believe it is safe to say that the market is too small for manufacturers to make hardware that is 100% specific to the GMRS. Instead what they do is make hardware that can be used for a variety of different services, but mainly for Public Service, Commercial and Amateur radio. Then they adapter it for GMRS. I think they leave some commercial and amateur radio features in the radios to lure folks into buying them because they have “extra” features, even though said features may have no practical use in the GMRS. Quite honestly some of these radios are unnecessarily complex for what the GMRS user really needs or wants.

Yes I was referring (in part) to PTT-ID. There is nothing to say that it could not be used in GMRS, just that is currently has limited or no practical use in the GMRS for the masses, whereas in a commercial or public service application it has had lots of practical use according to some folks I have discussed it with.

If you do have radios that can both transmit a PTT-ID as well as decode and display it, that could potentially be a benefit to you. If you had a family business and perhaps your own repeater that could leverage it in some manner then again it could be beneficial.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

Thanks so much for your comments Micheal... I learn so much from you as you spend the time of look things up.  So help me and others who have a Ham ticket as well as a GMRS license and want to have one radio to do both and be legal...   I know you have wrestled with this issue as I'm a Part 95 guy but as a Ham I have Part 90 that allows me to cross the line...  Help me and others with all that you know and what you are using....

MacJack

[n4gix]

On 7/8/2021 at 7:34 PM, MacJack said:

I know you have wrestled with this issue as I'm a Part 95 guy but as a Ham I have Part 90 that allows me to cross the line...

As ham licensees, we are not restricted by anything other than Part 15 (receiver specs) and band/frequency and power regulations. GMRS equipment however is governed by Part 15a and/or Part 15e. So any radio that meets the requirement of Part 15a/e and also will allow operation in the ham (note the small "h") is allowable provided one is licensed as both a ham and GMRS operator.

[n4gix]

On 7/8/2021 at 5:11 PM, djxs said:

"Some commercial radio services may require the radio to send out a certain code" Is that to say that GMRS can be used for commercial purposes?

GMRS was originally Class A business band. So there are still some business that have kept their original license active, so the above applies only to them and their equipment. Frankly there aren't all that many of these "grandfathered" licensee still in operation these days.

[jwilkers]

GMRS was originally Class A business band. So there are still some business that have kept their original license active, so the above applies only to them and their equipment. Frankly there aren't all that many of these "grandfathered" licensee still in operation these days.

Well really, gmrs was originally the Class A Citizens Radio Service. Businesses were allowed to license, the same as on Class D CB


Sent from my SM-A125U using Tapatalk

[Lscott]

On 7/10/2021 at 6:15 PM, n4gix said:

GMRS was originally Class A business band. So there are still some business that have kept their original license active, so the above applies only to them and their equipment. Frankly there aren't all that many of these "grandfathered" licensee still in operation these days.

And there are some still active using the band with an expired license. The mall close by me is still operating. I monitor them all the time at home and when I'm walking around the mall. The frequency is used by the mall's house keeping staff.

They use it to communicate between house keeping staff and the mall's security office.

https://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=3354643 (Security)

And yes I've heard the mall's security dispatch office on it a few times. The mall's security does have a current license for their own frequency so either they have two radios or their dispatch radio has both sets of frequencies in it.

https://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=194751 (House Keeping)

Click on the "Admin" tab then scroll down to the section labeled "Special Conditions". There you'll clearly see they were originally licensed for GMRS but never renewed. Note the frequencies are for a repeater, and yes they are using it too. Their license, KAB1523,  expired on 10/12/2015. I guess the FCC doesn't give a crap.

[BoxCar]

To my knowledge the FCC has never tracked if a licensee continues to use a frequency after their authorization expired. It's usually brought to their attention by someone who wants the frequency, or the operator is causing interference to other licensed users. In the case of the mall, you are a licensed user so report the mall as causing harmful interference to your use of the frequency. The FCC will start with one or two actions, either by sending an agent or by letter. In either case once the ball starts rolling it won't stop. Do your part and file a complaint. Granted it won't be a high priority for the Commission but they will take action especially if you can get other GMRS users in your area to also file.

[Lscott]

The reason I mentioned this example is to show not every business using GMRS frequencies are licensed to do so. Sort of hard to believe that since 10/2015 nobody complained to the FCC.
 

You don’t hear them except occasionally. Unfortunately that frequency is the same one as a local GMRS repeater, which I use, but has a different PL tone. That repeater has around 80 registered users to date and about 8 miles or so from the one at the mall. 

[CMG1012]

On 7/3/2021 at 9:22 PM, DonErle said:

Forgot to mention the options for DTMFST

DT-ST: Activates keypad sidetone

ANI-ST: Activates Caller ID sidetone

DT+ANT: Activates both keypad and Caller ID sidetones

Reviving an old thread to understand a bit more about my new radio. I learned a bit more about the PTT-ID now, thank you! Can I get clarification on the difference between Keypad Sidetone and Caller ID Sidetone please?

[mbrun]

Reviving an old thread to understand a bit more about my new radio. I learned a bit more about the PTT-ID now, thank you! Can I get clarification on the difference between Keypad Sidetone and Caller ID Sidetone please?

Sidetone refers to the ability of the transmitting radio to reproduce DTMF tones via its local speaker. If turned off, none of the DTMF tones transmitted by your radio will be heard locally. The other choices refer to whether you hear the DTMF tones sent out from key-presses, whether you hear the DTMF tone sent out as your ANI ID, or both.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[CMG1012]

Thanks!

[BoxCar]

Sidetone is actually a telephony term and it refers to a small part of the input signal being fed back to the speaker.