50 watts simplex. I'm confused.

[Lscott]

11 hours ago, axorlov said:

Also look from this perspective: when you are talking to your buddy on simplex, both are in simplex range, and hold the frequency only within this range, often short range. When taking simplex to your buddy on the repeater input, you both are still must be close, but you block frequency for much wider range, the reach of the repeater, without any benefit to your conversation whatsoever.

That’s what the “talk-around” or “reverse” function is used for on radios. You check to see if you can hear the other station on the repeater input. If you can there isn’t any point in using the repeater since the communications can be conducted using simplex.

[axorlov]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

That’s what the “talk-around” or “reverse” function is used for on radios. You check to see if you can hear the other station on the repeater input. If you can there isn’t any point in using the repeater since the communications can be conducted using simplex.

"Talk-around" is a simplex on repeater output in LMR, no? As opposed to "reverse" in the ham world: to see if you can hear on the repeater input?

 

Edit:

Just confirmed, "talk around" is a simplex on the repeater output. The "reverse" function is to find out if you can hear your correspondent on simplex.

[MichaelLAX]

1 hour ago, axorlov said:

The "reverse" function is to find out if you can hear your correspondent on simplex.

And to actually be able to communicate with your “correspondent” if, for example, the repeater is not functioning or you do not know the proper tone to access the repeater 

[axorlov]

9 minutes ago, MichaelLAX said:

 for example, the repeater is not functioning 

And you make sure it stays this way, not functioning, by clobbering the input. :thumbsup

[MichaelLAX]

Just now, axorlov said:

And you make sure it stays this way, not functioning, by clobbering the input. :thumbsup

You’re wrong: when using Reverse, I am transmitting on the Output and listening on the Input. 

[axorlov]

Ok, I am retracting my earlier statement, that was done without thinking.

[MichaelLAX]

26 minutes ago, axorlov said:

Ok, I am retracting my earlier statement, that was done without thinking.

That’s ok: I take all your snipes at me as “tongue in cheek!”  It fits in with my sense of humor. 

[DeoVindice]

1 hour ago, MichaelLAX said:

And to actually be able to communicate with your “correspondent” if, for example, the repeater is not functioning or you do not know the proper tone to access the repeater 

That is the purpose of talkaround.

[MichaelLAX]

1 hour ago, DeoVindice said:

That is the purpose of talkaround.

Except when circumstances require you to transmit on the Output, yet listen on the Input.

[Lscott]

23 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

Except when circumstances require you to transmit on the Output, yet listen on the Input.

The rules say you’re not to use the repeater main input frequencies, 467.xxx, except to communicate through a repeater. Switching to talk-around mode you’re using the repeater output frequency in simplex mode which is allowed. If you can hear the other station using talk-around you likely shouldn’t be tying up the repeater and move to a strictly simplex only channel freeing up the machine, repeater channel, for someone who really needs it.

[n4gix]

36 minutes ago, Lscott said:

If you can hear the other station using talk-around you likely shouldn’t be tying up the repeater and move to a strictly simplex only channel freeing up the machine, repeater channel, for someone who really needs it.

That is absolutely correct. Talk-Around is not the same thing as "Reverse (frequencies)". 

[gortex2]

As stated talk around is the repeater output. This is true in the LMR world and every public safety radio I have touched in 30 years of RF work. The idea is if your on the fringe of a repeater or the repeater goes off line you can still talk and users hear you. In SAR we use this all the time for training that way we are not typing up an entire county, or counties. If someone calls on the repeater we hear and can switch to repeat and talk. 

The whole reverse frequency thing is something from the HAM world and while I somewhat see the point it confuses folks pretty quick. IF i need to get off a HAM repeater onto simplex I just switch to simplex and call. 

[MichaelLAX]

8 hours ago, kb2ztx said:

IF i need to get off a HAM repeater onto simplex I just switch to simplex and call. 

Ok, educate me: Which button do you push on your HAM radio to "just switch to simplex?" And on which radio do you use this button?

[BoxCar]

1 hour ago, MichaelLAX said:

Ok, educate me: Which button do you push on your HAM radio to "just switch to simplex?" And on which radio do you use this button?

On my Yeasu FT-4XR I can push one of the two programmable keys. The ame on my BaoFengs.

[MichaelLAX]

10 hours ago, BoxCar said:

On my Yeasu FT-4XR I can push one of the two programmable keys. The ame on my BaoFengs.

Yes, thank you for your experience, but I was asking  what @kb2ztxuses; since he responded:

Quote

IF i need to get off a HAM repeater onto simplex I just switch to simplex and call. 

 

[BoxCar]

If pushing programmable buttons is cheating that would make turning the channel selector or using the channel selector buttons o the radio or microphone cheating as well by your rules.

[Skinnerfam95]

Hi, I'm late to the game to join in with this comment.  This was a test using two Radioddity GM-30 5W radios (about $40 ea)-- using 20" mobile mag mount antennas.  This is largely a forested area.  The quality was poor, but I was able to have two way communication in this scenario.

Although I think you can't go wrong with the Wouxun KG1000g... you may find it is way overkill.

Or, when you do your testing, you may find that there are things in your environment that is better than my case... or worse.

Lots of variables in radio that makes it hard to completely plan it out on paper.

https://www.solwise.co.uk/wireless-elevationtool.html

 

[MichaelLAX]

@BoxCarYou were not even the person to whom I asked the question But thank you for your information. 

I asked @kb2ztxbecause HE said:

Quote

IF i need to get off a HAM repeater onto simplex I just switch to simplex and call. 

To which I then asked HIM:

Quote

Ok, educate me: Which button do you push on your HAM radio to "just switch to simplex?" And on which radio do you use this button?

 

[gortex2]

Well if I want to go to simplex,  I push TA on my mobile or portable (Actually labeled DIR in the APX series.)

Being I only have one ham radio that I actually use (FTM400) it sits on APRS and 520 all the time. I dont think I have ever used it to talk on a repeater. The APX-8500 does much better for that. 

[MichaelLAX]

On 12/16/2021 at 5:23 AM, kb2ztx said:

The whole reverse frequency thing is something from the HAM world and while I somewhat see the point it confuses folks pretty quick. IF i need to get off a HAM repeater onto simplex I just switch to simplex and call. 

 

6 hours ago, kb2ztx said:

Being I only have one ham radio that I actually use (FTM400) it sits on APRS and 520 all the time. I dont think I have ever used it to talk on a repeater. The APX-8500 does much better for that. 

That explains your confusion between Talkaround and Reverse.

[Lscott]

On 12/15/2021 at 6:21 PM, n4gix said:

That is absolutely correct. Talk-Around is not the same thing as "Reverse (frequencies)". 

True. One just has to understand the difference in how the radio functions. 
 

With reverse, Ham radios, one station can monitor the repeater input to see if they can hear the other station. Then request the other station to switch to a simplex frequency.

For LMR radios both have to switch to talk around. If the both can hear each other well then switching to a simplex frequency, if possible, or continue to use the repeater frequency in talk around mode.

[gortex2]

I never said I was confused by REV vs TA. My old Alinco had the REV button. I thought it was stupid. It came from Hams who thought that was a better way. Ive never subscribed to that mentality. Apparently many still do. To each there own. I run commercial gear on all my bands. I like quality. JMHO.

[MichaelLAX]

16 minutes ago, kb2ztx said:

I never said I was confused by REV vs TA. My old Alinco had the REV button. I thought it was stupid. It came from Hams who thought that was a better way. Ive never subscribed to that mentality. Apparently many still do. To each there own. I run commercial gear on all my bands. I like quality. JMHO.

No, your prior conflicting statements caused the confusion…

BTW: Quality is irrelevant to the discussion between the difference of TA and REV. 
 

As @Lscottput it, REV only requires ONE operator to select REV to communicate Simplex with the other. 
 

TA requires BOTH operators to fascinate the simplex communication, by both activating TA.

It’s clear that REV is better, but feel free to continue to subscribe to the mentality of using the inferior method. 
 

Even if it is on a higher quality radio… 

[Lscott]

10 minutes ago, MichaelLAX said:

No, your prior conflicting statements caused the confusion…

BTW: Quality is irrelevant to the discussion between the difference of TA and REV. 
 

As @Lscottput it, REV only requires ONE operator to select REV to communicate Simplex with the other. 
 

TA requires BOTH operators to fascinate the simplex communication, by both activating TA.

It’s clear that REV is better, but feel free to continue to subscribe to the mentality of using the inferior method. 
 

Even if it is on a higher quality radio… 

I’ll agree I wasn’t clear about the difference. They both can accomplish the same end, just differently. I wouldn’t say one is inferior to the other.

[MichaelLAX]

42 minutes ago, Lscott said:

I’ll agree I wasn’t clear about the difference. They both can accomplish the same end, just differently. I wouldn’t say one is inferior to the other.

One allows me to unilaterally communicate by simplex: REV.
 

The other, TA, requires that I must get the other operator to also switch to TA. 
 

The benefit of REV is clear to me, especially as someone who uses it often on my GMRS Radio.