Fixed station - what does that mean to FCC?

[SteveShannon]

3 minutes ago, jwilkers said:

Not how I read it. If a base communicates with another base, then they are "fixed stations" bases can only talk to mobiles.

Sent from my SM-A136U using Tapatalk
 

That’s not what the FCC definition says:

Quote

Base station. A station at a fixed location that communicates directly with mobile stations and other base stations. 

 

[Photoman5k]

13 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

There are lots of places on the internet where guys are claiming base stations can't have more than 15W because of misinterpreting the rule for fixed stations. 

Don't know how it could be misinterpreted the regulations are pretty clear on it.

Quote

§ 95.1767 GMRS transmitting power limits.

This section contains transmitting power limits for GMRS stations. The maximum transmitting power depends on which channels are being used and the type of station.

(a) 462/467 MHz main channels. The limits in this paragraph apply to stations transmitting on any of the 462 MHz main channels or any of the 467 MHz main channels. Each GMRS transmitter type must be capable of operating within the allowable power range. GMRS licensees are responsible for ensuring that their GMRS stations operate in compliance with these limits.

(1) The transmitter output power of mobile, repeater and base stations must not exceed 50 Watts.

(2) The transmitter output power of fixed stations must not exceed 15 Watts.

(b) 462 MHz interstitial channels. The effective radiated power (ERP) of mobile, hand-held portable and base stations transmitting on the 462 MHz interstitial channels must not exceed 5 Watts.

(c) 467 MHz interstitial channels. The effective radiated power (ERP) of hand-held portable units transmitting on the 467 MHz interstitial channels must not exceed 0.5 Watt. Each GMRS transmitter type capable of transmitting on these channels must be designed such that the ERP does not exceed 0.5 Watt.

 

[SteveShannon]

Based on the following paragraph in the regulations, the FCC hasn’t issued station licenses since 1987. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if the entire concept of Base Stations and Fixed Stations dates back to then and means nothing now:

Quote

Limitations on grandfathered GMRS licenses.  GMRS licenses that were issued prior to July 31, 1987 authorized GMRS station operation at specified locations, on specified channels, and with specified antenna height and transmitter power. Grandfathered GMRS licenses authorize only continued operation of those specific stations by these licensees, at the specified locations, channels, antenna heights and transmitting power. The FCC does not accept applications to modify, assign, or transfer grandfathered GMRS licenses (other than administrative updates to change contact information).

 

[KAF6045]

Note that "grandfathered" in the regulations refers to /non-individual/ (ie: business) GMRS licenses; not to individual (family) licenses.

Here's what Jan 2017 (pre-reorg) has... https://www.ecfr.gov/on/2017-01-02/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-A

Quote

§ 95.25 Land station description.

(a) A land station is a unit which transmits from a specific address as determined by the licensee.

(1) An exact point as shown on the license; or

(2) An unspecified point within an operating area (an area within a circle centered on a point chosen by the applicant) as shown on the license, for a temporary period (one year or less).

(b) The point from which every land station transmits must be within an area where radio services are regulated by the FCC.

(c) [Reserved]

(d) A small control station is any control station which:

(1) Has an antenna no more than 6.1 meters (20 feet) above the ground or above the building or tree on which it is mounted (see § 95.51); and

(2) Is:

(i) South of Line A or west of Line C; or

(ii) North of Line A or east of Line C, and the station transmits with no more than 5 watts ERP (effective radiated power).

(e) A small base station is any base station that:

(1) Has an antenna no more than 6.1 meters (20 feet) above the ground or above the building or tree on which it is mounted (see § 95.51); and

(2) Transmits with no more than 5 watts ERP.

(f) Each base station and each control station with an antenna height greater than 6.1 meters (20 feet) must be separately identified on Form 605. See §§ 95.25 (d) and (e) and 95.51 of this part.

 

Quote

 

§ 95.101 What the license authorizes.

(a) A GMRS license authorizes a GMRS station to transmit messages to other GMRS stations at any geographical location within or over the territorial limits of any area where radio services are regulated by the FCC. These points are listed in Appendix A.

(b) The license does not authorize operation as a common carrier or communication of messages for pay.

(c) If the licensee is a corporation and the license so indicates, it may use its GMRS system to furnish non-profit radio communication service to its parent corporation, to another subsidiary of the same parent, or to its own subsidiary. Such use is not subject to the cooperative use provisions of § 95.33.

(d) For non-individual licensees, the license together with the system specifications for that license as maintained by the Commission represent the non-individual licensees' maximum authorized system.

 

At this point in time, the regulations appear to have allowed the licensee to request more than two (pairs) of frequencies; I'm pretty certain when I was licensed back around 1995 one could only have a maximum of two (pairs) listed on the license -- they were to be programmed into the radio by the dealer.

And just a commentary on "fixed stations"

Quote

§ 95.29 Channels available.

(a) For a base station, fixed station, mobile station, or repeater station (a GMRS station that simultaneously retransmits the transmission of another GMRS station on a different channel or channels), the licensee of the GMRS system must select the transmitting channels or channel pairs (see § 95.7(a) of this part) for the stations in the GMRS system from the following 462 MHz channels:

462.5500, 462.5750, 462.6000, 462.6250, 462.6500, 462.6750, 462.7000 and 462.7250.

<SNIP>

(g) Fixed stations in GMRS systems authorized before March 18, 1968, located 160 kilometers (100 miles) or more from the geographic center of urbanized areas f 200,000 or more population as defined in the U.S. Census of Population, 1960, Vol. 1, Table 23, page 50 that were authorized to transmit on channels other than those listed in this section may continue to transmit on their originally assigned channels provided that they cause no interference to the operation of stations in any of the part 90 private land mobile radio services.

 

[WRQI583]

When it comes to the rules, yes, we all need to follow them. But even like Ham Radio, if you spend 90% of your time consuming yourself with "The Rules" instead of enjoying what you got into, you will be miserable.

I have known many people to get out of the radio hobby or distance themselves from it (in general, Ham or GMRS or anything else) because of the thinking that the FCC was going to show up at their doorstep to take all their radios, arrest them and lock them up in federal prison for 20 years and slap them with $10,000 fine. Then you have those in the radio community that preach that and they do everything in their power to shame people into this thinking, that they inadvertently shove people out of the hobby. These type sit on their high throne surrounded by radios thinking they own the airwaves.

I, like probably thousands of other GMRS operators run a mobile radio hooked up to a power supply transmitting on an omni-directional antenna and they talk base to mobile/portable and if they happen to have a repeater to use nearby, they talk through that to other GMRS operators or their own family. Same goes for the mobile. Same goes for the portables. As long as you are within the proper parameters, I highly doubt the FCC is going to swoop in to take you away because you didn't follow one letter of the law based on a fraction of a technicality that was misinterpreted accidently. I have known of people who deliberately interfered with public safety communications and other forms of licensed radio communications and everyone knew who they were and that they were doing it. Nothing was ever done. Nothing ever happened. Sadly!

Again, I am not saying its ok to break the rules. Rules are how we maintain order and stay together as a society. Get out there in the community with those who follow the rules to the best of their ability, learn the in's and out's and set up your station and enjoy. We are all in this together and following common sense and common courtesy is above all things, and by following that, you will be following the rules. 

[Fernleaf]

On 12/4/2022 at 9:13 AM, WRQI583 said:

When it comes to the rules, yes, we all need to follow them. But even like Ham Radio, if you spend 90% of your time consuming yourself with "The Rules" instead of enjoying what you got into, you will be miserable.

I couldn’t agree more. 

[UncleYoda]

@Sshannon Reposting this here from a discussion in another unrelated topic:

NNNNOOOOOO!!!!!!!!       A FIXED STATION IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT, A MOBILE, HANDHELD OR BASE STATION.  It is not any of the normal station types by its own lame definition - can only talk to other fixed stations.  Obviously, mobile and handheld portable aren't fixed so that part is clear.  The one 99.9% of users mistake is base station.  Base can't be what they are calling a fixed station (even though it is in a fixed location) because the regulations are clearly different for the two types - different power limits, different channel usage, different definitions.  The fact that FCC can't clear this up proves they should be defunded pronto because it's ridiculous for a regulatory agency to not properly explain regulations.

[SteveShannon]

2 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

@Sshannon Reposting this here from a discussion in another unrelated topic:

NNNNOOOOOO!!!!!!!!       A FIXED STATION IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT, A MOBILE, HANDHELD OR BASE STATION.  It is not any of the normal station types by its own lame definition - can only talk to other fixed stations.  Obviously, mobile and handheld portable aren't fixed so that part is clear.  The one 99.9% of users mistake is base station.  Base can't be what they are calling a fixed station (even though it is in a fixed location) because the regulations are clearly different for the two types - different power limits, different channel usage, different definitions.  The fact that FCC can't clear this up proves they should be defunded pronto because it's ridiculous for a regulatory agency to not properly explain regulations.

I’ll try to rephrase my response from the other thread. 
The FCC gives us this much: A Fixed Station is a station in a fixed location which communicates only to other Fixed Stations. 
95E defines GMRS usage of Fixed Stations in these areas:

15 watts or less and may only be used on certain channels. Fixed Stations are explicitly permitted to transmit on the 467 MHz channels 

A station is defined by its usage. So, a radio sold as a portable, can be repurposed as a Fixed Station as long as the operator complies with the rules. 

[UncleYoda]

I agree it's not about the radio itself.  It's common to use a mobile as a base station.  That's not the issue for me at all.  I even use handheld as a base for HAM, and would do the same for GMRS if it wasn't for the nutty rules.

[SteveShannon]

31 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

I agree it's not about the radio itself.  It's common to use a mobile as a base station.  That's not the issue for me at all.  I even use handheld as a base for HAM, and would do the same for GMRS if it wasn't for the nutty rules.

Then I think we’re in agreement.

The thing that I think hangs folks up about Fixed Stations is that they don’t seem to fit any particular utility commonly identified with GMRS. 

But one of the ideal uses for GMRS is for communications on the family farm. The entire family can be covered under a single license even though they occupy multiple households  I worked for such a family right out of high school: four brothers and their parents.

This family could each have a Fixed Station, dedicated to communicating only with the other households on their Fixed Stations.  Now under the regulations they could not communicate with any other radios, but for dedicated communications between houses or barns, shops, or other outbuildings on the farm, on the less monitored 467 MHz channels, and possibly using directional antennas, and a pretty effective family communication network could be established  

 

 

[WRUU653]

56 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

The thing that I think hangs folks up about Fixed Stations is that they don’t seem to fit any particular utility commonly identified with GMRS. 

But one of the ideal uses for GMRS is for communications on the family farm. The entire family can be covered under a single license even though they occupy multiple households  I worked for such a family right out of high school: four brothers and their parents.

This family could each have a Fixed Station, dedicated to communicating only with the other households on their Fixed Stations.  Now under the regulations they could not communicate with any other radios, but for dedicated communications between houses or barns, shops, or other outbuildings on the farm, on the less monitored 467 MHz channels, and possibly using directional antennas, and a pretty effective family communication network could be established  

I did a little digging thinking maybe something existed in the market place that would match the criteria of a fixed station using the frequencies being discussed here.  So I searched for wireless intercoms and GMRS/FRS and I found a couple. Here's the thing, of the two I found they both used either Murs or business band UHF except for the Canadian market. I just thought this was interesting to the conversation. 

 

[UncleYoda]

But if fixed stations are a special type of base station usage, then that should be specified in the regs.  We should not have to guess what they mean, and our opinions are not authoritative.  And points in favor of fixed station being different are: 

the fixed station definition does not mention base station at all;

fixed stations have repeater privileges but base does not, which seems backwards for the use you mention; (if it's a low height personal repeater, that might make sense for fixed, but that is not the kind of repeater people are using, they're using HAM style repeaters)

even on a farm, there would be a lot of benefit to being able to talk to mobile and handheld portable stations, and probably base stations on other farms or in town, so what would the fixed station offer that a base station wouldn't.

The idea that a station's current use can be base or fixed while seamlessly switching back and forth just based on who you're talking to, is total nuts to me.  It would be impossible to regulate for one thing.  And a lot of users do talk to people they don't know; that's a common use of many different types of radio.  Even a family member might use different station types. 

In any case, examples we make up don't tell us what FCC meant, which is what needs to be clarified.  It has to come from them to have any authority.

 

[SteveShannon]

8 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

But if fixed stations are a special type of base station usage, then that should be specified in the regs.  We should not have to guess what they mean, and our opinions are not authoritative.  And points in favor of fixed station being different are: 

the fixed station definition does not mention base station at all;

fixed stations have repeater privileges but base does not, which seems backwards for the use you mention; (if it's a low height personal repeater, that might make sense for fixed, but that is not the kind of repeater people are using, they're using HAM style repeaters)

even on a farm, there would be a lot of benefit to being able to talk to mobile and handheld portable stations, and probably base stations on other farms or in town, so what would the fixed station offer that a base station wouldn't.

The idea that a station's current use can be base or fixed while seamlessly switching back and forth just based on who you're talking to, is total nuts to me.  It would be impossible to regulate for one thing.  And a lot of users do talk to people they don't know; that's a common use of many different types of radio.  Even a family member might use different station types. 

In any case, examples we make up don't tell us what FCC meant, which is what needs to be clarified.  It has to come from them to have any authority.

 

Fixed Stations are not a special case of base station usage. As such it wouldn’t make sense to mention Base Stations when defining Fixed Stations. Both Base Stations and Fixed Stations are required to be located in fixed positions. That’s why base stations are not mentioned in the definition. 

Fixed Stations do not have repeater privileges; they may only connect with other Fixed Stations (that’s established in the definition https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-95.303)

Probably the chief benefit of being a fixed station over a base station is the access to the less cluttered 467 MHz channels. 

I don’t believe you could “seamlessly switch back and forth.”  I think you have to make a choice but the FCC doesn’t define that part well. 
 

It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks the FCC meant if it’s not spelled out in code. As long as my imaginary example or anyone else’s complies with regulations and fulfills a need it’s relevant.

[marcspaz]

I'm not sure why this is still going on, but the FCC is extremely specific. There is nothing vague about it.

 

Per ther FCC rules, a Fixed Service is radio communication service between specified fixed points; and a Fixed Station is a station in the fixed service. It's a station in the service of radio communication between specified fixed points or between a specified fixed point and one or more other fixed points. 

 

It doesn't matter what the radio itself was originally designed to do (mobile, base, portable, etc.) The only thing that matters is its actual executed use.

[UncleYoda]

21 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Fixed Stations do not have repeater privileges; they may only connect with other Fixed Stations (that’s established in the definition https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-95.303)

95.1763 (c) 467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels

21 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks the FCC meant if it’s not spelled out in code.

What the wording means is very relevant to anyone who tries to follow the rules.  And I think if there were a court case, intent would be considered.  But with this attitude, we may as well stop the discussion here because the wording of the regulation is lacking detail.

[UncleYoda]

8 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

I'm not sure why this is still going on, but the FCC is extremely specific. There is nothing vague about it.

Because it was being discussed again under another topic.  Sorry we didn't first ask your permission to continue the discussion.

8 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

 

Per ther FCC rules, a Fixed Service is radio communication service between specified fixed points;

That would apply to every base station so that gets us nowhere.

[SteveShannon]

5 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

95.1763 (c) 467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels

What the wording means is very relevant to anyone who tries to follow the rules.  And I think if there were a court case, intent would be considered.  But with this attitude, we may as well stop the discussion here because the wording of the regulation is lacking detail.

Fixed Stations may transmit on either the 462 or 467 MHz Main Channels, but they're limited by definition to communicate with other Fixed Stations only, so they may not use repeaters.

"(a) 462 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, repeater, base and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 462.5500, 462.5750, 462.6000, 462.6250, 462.6500, 462.6750, 462.7000, and 462.7250 MHz."

"(c) 467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and control stations may transmit on these channels only when communicating through a repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with § 95.319(c). The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz."

"Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed stations only."

As far as intent, it can only mean what the code (regulations) reflect.  It cannot say one thing and mean another. And it cannot be mum to intent and be interpreted to intend something.

You want an example.  I used my imagination and gave you one that complies with the regulations.  You reject it because it didn't come from FCC.  The thing is, the FCC could not possibly provide examples for every use case and shouldn't be asked to.  They provide limits, we stay within them.  Everything that fits within those limits is fair game.  

 

[BoxCar]

The primary issue is the word "fixed". Steve is using in the sense it is stationary while the FCC uses the term to define a radio station meant to connect to another radio station where both are located in fixed locations and communicate only with each other. Fixed, in this case, means stations having a fixed or geocoded location that has been identified on their station license and application.

[SteveShannon]

28 minutes ago, BoxCar said:

The primary issue is the word "fixed". Steve is using in the sense it is stationary while the FCC uses the term to define a radio station meant to connect to another radio station where both are located in fixed locations and communicate only with each other. Fixed, in this case, means stations having a fixed or geocoded location that has been identified on their station license and application.

I agree with that mostly. My two disagreements are these:

1. Fixed Stations may communicate with more than a single Fixed Station, but I agree that they may only communicate with other Fixed Stations. Perhaps I'm being too picky about your wording.  I'm that way.
2. Stations are no longer licensed under GMRS.  Individuals are. There may be some "fixed stations" that are grandfathered and include a location on their license, but the only licenses issued now are to individuals.

"Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed stations only."

That clearly doesn't say "licensed to a particular location."  

I don't doubt that for other services it could mean that it's licensed to a specific location and very possibly even grandfathered GMRS licenses might include a location on the license.

[marcspaz]

3 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

Because it was being discussed again under another topic.  Sorry we didn't first ask your permission to continue the discussion.

That would apply to every base station so that gets us nowhere.

No need to be an ass about it. It's been asked and answered so many times that it's bewildering that it's still being discussed. And... you're wrong. It doesn't apply to every base station... not every base station only has 15 watts and designed to only talk to other 15 watt base stations.  

 

But, hey... by all means... knock yourself out. 

[WRUU653]

The (pantomime) horse is dead.

fixed station: one that is no longer broken   

[SteveShannon]

10 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

The (pantomime) horse is dead.

fixed station: one that is no longer broken   

This one's on me.  I should have just left it at the other thread.

[WRUU653]

1 minute ago, Sshannon said:

This one's on me.  I should have just left it at the other thread.

It was a valiant effort sir. For that I commend you.

[marcspaz]

4 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

This one's on me.  I should have just left it at the other thread.

I've walked a mile in your shoes.  LOL

[WRQC527]

"It's easy to become confused by these questions. It's hard to know what to do. We should talk about this some more."

~Chief Ten Bears