Hams on GMRS

[WRQC527]

I use GMRS because my wife and I can communicate with it. I'm a ham, she's not, so it works for us. I don't use 440 on ham frequencies because there's not much activity on it where I am. My ham friends and I use two meters all the time. There shouldn't be animosity between ham and GMRS, because it's simply two different methods. There's bad eggs on both sides. Don't be one, that's what I think. 

[marcspaz]

5 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

Try listening to 75 meters AM at night! 

 

Good grief... 75m and 80m is just atrocious. Fantastic from a radio prospective, but the people are mostly horrible human beings. 

[DONE]

20 hours ago, marcspaz said:

 

That's actually pretty impressive.  I'm curious if the person on the other end ever told you what they were running, since they were able to make it back to you?  +40 at 60 miles is no joke.

 

 

LOL... that would be fun.  There is no shortage of material, that's for sure. 

We were both into 2M SSB at the time. Hence the ability to crank up that sort of ERP.  I believe he had a rather large tube amp that would get close to legal limit on ham and a sat of stacked 15 or 18 element hand built beams.  He could FAR exceed my little 140 watt solid state amp.

I haven't talked to him since I put the SSB rig away.  Working on getting that stuff back out and looking to setup a satellite earth station this spring.  40 foot tower with proper beams and a rotator built out of a HUGE outdoor camera mount I found this year at Dayton.  The thing took me 20 minutes to drag back the the truck that was 50 yards away because I kept setting it down due to the weight.  And I lug two 50 pound siren batteries around all the time, one in each hand.  This was much heavier. 

At least I know the tower (Rohn65) will hold the thing without an issue. 

 

[DONE]

Back to the topic at hand.

I am a ham.  The guy that owns the tower is as well and got his GMRS license a few years ago for family use. 

He got me turned on to it and actually gave me the money to get my license (70 bucks).  I don't remember if I was on here first or the MidWest group on facebook.  Talked to Corey and Buddy with that group and got interested in linking.  I never looked back.  Started with putting a single repeater at the tower and now have three.  The first one is the owners call sign on my hardware.  The other two are all me.  Built the interface out of a CM108 USB dongle sound card and just kept rolling. 

Got a group that's local that gets on a chats on the 675 locally and many of them get on the linked system as well.  I wanted something on the air that folks would actually use.  And I wasn't disappointed.  The 600 (midwest link machine) gets hundreds of PTT's a day and is busier than all the other local ham repeaters combined.  

Next project for the site is to link my VHF P25 repeater to the P25 system in western Ohio around Dayton.  They are seeing a good bit of traffic on it and I am hopeful that they are interested in furthering their coverage to the Columbus area.

 

[Lscott]

2 hours ago, marcspaz said:

 

Good grief... 75m and 80m is just atrocious. Fantastic from a radio prospective, but the people are mostly horrible human beings. 

Reminds me of the old “Liberty Net” that got lots of attention.

[WRAM370]

“Why are there so many hams getting into GMRS ?”

 

When I read through the reasons given, I see a distinct pattern. I have copied the pertinent responses below to illustrate my point. I also include some personal accounts that are occurring within my “local” area, regarding amateur radio operators and their use of GMRS.

 

There are those on this forum that believe the purpose of GMRS is clearly and concisely stated by the FCC…” The GMRS is available to an individual (one man or one woman) for short-distance two-way communications to facilitate the activities of licensees and their immediate family members”.

 

There are others who interpret the intent and purpose of GMRS as something beyond the scope of the above description. 

 

Based on the responses to the OP’s query, it seems that the two primary reasons offered here for a licensed amateur radio operator to use GMRS, are:

 

1. There is more opportunity to talk to people. (beyond the scope of facilitating activities of their families)

 

2. A desire to have a means of communication with an unlicensed family member. (completely within the scope of facilitating activities of their families)

 

Here are the responses that specifically address the OP’s question…

 

“There's actually people to talk to on GMRS”. 

 

“Ham is in an activity null”

 

“Availability, coverage and the people using it”

 

“Around the Detroit area 2M and 70cm are dead most of the time. On GMRS you only have a handful of frequencies to use so it doesn’t take much to find activity”

 

“I can give one of my GMRS radios to my wife”

 

“In my case a GMRS license allows me to give a cheap and useful radio to all family members”

 

“I use GMRS out with the family unit all the time”

 

“I use GMRS because my wife and I can communicate with it. I'm a ham, she's not”

 

“I am a ham… Talked to Corey and Buddy with that group and got interested in linking.  I never looked back. Got a group that's local that gets on a chats on the 675 locally and many of them get on the linked system as well”

 

 

As we can see, based on the responses, those licensed amateur radio operators utilizing GMRS in order to talk to their family members, have no other reason as to why they prefer GMRS over amateur radio, other than the desire and need to communicate with their family members who do not have an amateur license. Their possession of an amateur license does not really factor into their utilization of GMRS.

 

Those hams who specifically cited a reason they prefer GMRS over ham radio is because of the likelihood that they will find someone to talk to. They can increase that likelihood by linking GMRS repeaters. There is little-to-no ham radio activity local to them.

 

So this is an indication that they are looking at GMRS as an activity within itself…the hobby of talking. They want to use GMRS to talk to people beyond their families, and even to talk to people in locations beyond the RF footprint of their radios or repeaters. In fact, they are saying that they are using GMRS as a substitute for amateur radio, since amateur is not meeting their expectations. They don’t particularly care if GMRS is not really intended as a suitable radio service for this activity. 

 

Local to me, members of an amateur radio club is encouraging other members to get a GMRS license, and is scheduling a GMRS simplex net. Those members who are encouraging this action, are doing so because it is clear they are not happy with the people they are finding on the amateur radio bands, and openly state they prefer the people they find on GMRS. There were a few responses from members on this forum that also included a dissatisfaction with those they encountered on the amateur bands. 

 

This further indicates to me, that many of these hams are looking to strike up friendships and connections via the airwaves, and are looking for camaraderie and fellowship. To engage in conversation and chat. None of these things are why I use GMRS.

Also, these hams may want to possibly exercise control of a channel or group, via controlling a wide coverage repeater that makes it difficult for others to utilize, or an organization of people, to control who is allowed in the club, and who is allowed to use their repeater. Oddly, this all sounds just like ham radio to me. As the old saying goes…”be careful what you wish for”.

 

It indicates that the amateur radio service has not fulfilled their desires, and they are using GMRS to fulfill that desire. Also, unrelated to the OP’s question, many that are obtaining GMRS licenses are coming from CB radio, and are moving their local “round table” CB radio sessions to GMRS repeaters. So now we have dissatisfied amateur radio operators and CB radio operators, leaving the RF spectrum that is available to them, to move to 8 available repeater channels. It’s gonna get crowded fast. While not within the scope of the OP’s original question, perhaps amateur radio better reassess it’s current requirements and mission, and see if it can provide an environment that entices people, particularly hobbyists, back to that service.

 

 

[marcspaz]

Truth mixed with sarcasm... I read that as "get off my lawn". LoL

[SteveShannon]

35 minutes ago, WRAM370 said:

“Why are there so many hams getting into GMRS ?”

 

When I read through the reasons given, I see a distinct pattern. I have copied the pertinent responses below to illustrate my point.

Snip...

I also include some personal accounts that are occurring within my “local” area, regarding amateur radio operators and their use of GMRS.. While not within the scope of the OP’s original question, perhaps amateur radio better reassess it’s current requirements and mission, and see if it can provide an environment that entices people, particularly hobbyists, back to that service.

 

 

Or maybe we just leave things the way they are.  Maybe all three services mentioned (CB, GMRS, ARS) are simply evolving into  their next versions, for better or worse.

I really liked your post and agree with almost all of it.  A lot of people are making GMRS into a hobby, but unlike amateur radio, a hobby they can do without convincing their family members to become hams.  I don’t see how Amateur Radio could change to accommodate that.

[pcradio]

1 hour ago, WRAM370 said:

many that are obtaining GMRS licenses are coming from CB radio, and are moving their local “round table” CB radio sessions to GMRS repeaters. So now we have dissatisfied amateur radio operators and CB radio operators, leaving the RF spectrum that is available to them, to move to 8 available repeater channels. It’s gonna get crowded fast.

That makes me nervous about GMRS repeater usage. It is too small a band to become a "public airways" chit chat service. Let's see what happens.

[gortex2]

1 minute ago, pcradio said:

That makes me nervous about GMRS repeater usage. It is too small a band to become a "public airways" chit chat service. Let's see what happens.

This is part of my issue. There are many 70cm channels to put a repeater on the air and chat or hold nets or what not. I agree ham is not for everyone and I get that. But I have yet to hear chatter on some repeaters between wife and kid or family member. Its normally 2 hams chatting about lunch or doctors etc. I have no issues with using repeaters but with only a few repeater pairs available it wont take long to clog up the airwaves. On top of the linking that every feels we need in GMRS its not going to be good for those that still want a base repeater to use with family. Landscapes change but its frustrating for those who have used the service for 2+ decades.  

[Lscott]

2 minutes ago, pcradio said:

That makes me nervous about GMRS repeater usage. It is too small a band to become a "public airways" chit chat service. Let's see what happens.

Well at least on GMRS you don't have to deal with the idiots on the "Super Bowl", CH6, on 11M running multi KW stations with their echo mics trying to own the airwaves.

[Lscott]

2 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

 I have no issues with using repeaters but with only a few repeater pairs available it wont take long to clog up the airwaves. On top of the linking that every feels we need in GMRS its not going to be good for those that still want a base repeater to use with family. Landscapes change but its frustrating for those who have used the service for 2+ decades.  

Well if it gets crowded enough maybe the FCC will expand the number of frequencies allowed. They eventually did that with CB, went from 23 channels to the now 40.

In Australia, and some other areas, have a UHF FM CB service with 80 channels. It seems to work for them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHF_CB

Example radio.

https://www.ohmelectronics.com.au/products/ic-450

[gortex2]

I highly doubt the FCC will open up more GMRS frequencies for repeaters. Today its all about money to the FCC. They make millions on frequencies. But with all the griping about hams maybe we can petition the UHF Ham band to get moved to GMRS. It sounds to me many don't use it anyway.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, gortex2 said:

Snip…

But with all the griping about hams maybe we can petition the UHF Ham band to get moved to GMRS. It sounds to me many don't use it anyway.

I think there are about 100,000 DMR users in the United States, which appear to mostly use repeaters or hotspots in the 70 cm UHF band. There are fewer C4FM users and D-STAR users who also concentrate their activities on the 70 cm band. Plus there’s probably quite a few who do analog. 
I don’t think you’ll be successful in a petition. 

[gortex2]

I agree, but that was one of the comments in the thread about 70cm not being used....repeaters that sit with no one on them. Maybe it would at least encourage them to use what they have. 

[marcspaz]

3 hours ago, gortex2 said:

Its normally 2 hams chatting about lunch or doctors etc.

 

Hey!  I reassemble that remark!  LOL

[SteveShannon]

3 hours ago, gortex2 said:

This is part of my issue. There are many 70cm channels to put a repeater on the air and chat or hold nets or what not. I agree ham is not for everyone and I get that. But I have yet to hear chatter on some repeaters between wife and kid or family member. Its normally 2 hams chatting about lunch or doctors etc. I have no issues with using repeaters but with only a few repeater pairs available it wont take long to clog up the airwaves. On top of the linking that every feels we need in GMRS its not going to be good for those that still want a base repeater to use with family. Landscapes change but its frustrating for those who have used the service for 2+ decades.  

So the problem with GMRS is that too many hams are rag-chewing on it?

[WRQC527]

I mentioned to my wife a few days ago while I was running a net that ham radio was invented by wives to keep their retired husbands out of their hair. I'm 62, not yet retired, and I'm beginning to think she's right. GMRS appears to appeal to a somewhat different demographic than ham radio, although in some ways they do overlap.

[WRAM370]

 



So perhaps we can all agree that hams and CB’ers are looking at GMRS so they have someone to talk to, and in particular, because they can utilize repeaters to accomplish that goal. The repeater is the primary attraction in this movement towards GMRS.

 

So, with trying to stay on topic to the OP’s original question, I suggest that amateur radio is missing the mark, by not providing the experience for many people who are, or would be, active on radio, where GMRS is providing a resource for these people, but it is my belief that GMRS is not the appropriate venue for this particular activity, due to it’s very limited bandwidth and shared FRS activity.

 

GMRS should be short distance, brief messages that convey information that is of interest to a family or immediate group of licensed people. Amateur radio is for longer distance conversations that include people not related to one another, who enjoy participating in long-winded ragchews.

 

I know the dozens of amateur repeaters in my region sit idle for days/weeks. Unused bandwidth on 2m and 70cm, and from your comments, it is true in your region as well. While the 8 repeater channels available are being used by CBer’s and ex-patriot hams.

 

It is just ridiculous for amateur radio to continue to hold onto old conventions that are literally causing it to lose participants, when we can clearly see the activity interest in GMRS increase, as ham radio interest decreases. And again, it is primarily related to repeater access on GMRS, so here is the simple solution…

 

1) Eliminate the testing requirement for an entry level amateur radio license.

 

2) Establish a license class that authorizes use of 2m and 70cm FM simplex and repeater access available for the price of admission ($35).

 

3) Allow up to 50 watts of transmitter output power (HT and mobile radio operation).

 

This is basically the same as GMRS (with the exception of the VHF access), and if GMRS does not require a license holder to demonstrate any knowledge of operation, than neither should amateur radio, for the same basic operating privileges. Beyond the requirement to identify your station every 10 minutes on the amateur bands, I don’t think there is anything else that a user of 2m or 70cm would need to know, relating to Part 97.

 

Should one want to further their involvement in amateur radio, then the usual process of testing can be followed, to permit the use of higher transmitter power, additional bands and modes of operation. But for amateur radio to try to have a gatekeeper in place for access to some VHF and UHF spectrum, in the form of a 35 question test, is archaic and useless at this point.  And it is only destroying the General Mobile Radio Service in the process.

 

And for the hams that would scream that this idea would destroy amateur radio…as a GMRS user, I am trying to save GMRS from the very situation you have created, so if you think my suggestion is wrong…then GFY. This is exactly what needs to happen, in order to save both amateur radio and GMRS.

 

 

 

[WRQC527]

8 minutes ago, WRAM370 said:

"then GFY"

Wow. 

[Sab02r]

GMRS is a radio service for people who want to communicate while they are doing stuff.

HAM is a radio service for people who want to communicate while they are doing nothing.

HAMs on GMRS are people who want to live vicariously through people who are doing stuff, while doing nothing.

I am kidding.  I am truly thankful for all of the knowledge, experience, and information that generous HAMs have been able to pass on to me and others so that we can use the airwaves effectively. If not for them, we would all have to figure it out our _______ selves...or not at all.

[SteveShannon]

10 minutes ago, WRAM370 said:

 



So perhaps we can all agree that hams and CB’ers are looking at GMRS so they have someone to talk to, and in particular, because they can utilize repeaters to accomplish that goal. The repeater is the primary attraction in this movement towards GMRS.

 

So, with trying to stay on topic to the OP’s original question, I suggest that amateur radio is missing the mark, by not providing the experience for many people who are, or would be, active on radio, where GMRS is providing a resource for these people, but it is my belief that GMRS is not the appropriate venue for this particular activity, due to it’s very limited bandwidth and shared FRS activity.

 

GMRS should be short distance, brief messages that convey information that is of interest to a family or immediate group of licensed people. Amateur radio is for longer distance conversations that include people not related to one another, who enjoy participating in long-winded ragchews.

 

I know the dozens of amateur repeaters in my region sit idle for days/weeks. Unused bandwidth on 2m and 70cm, and from your comments, it is true in your region as well. While the 8 repeater channels available are being used by CBer’s and ex-patriot hams.

 

It is just ridiculous for amateur radio to continue to hold onto old conventions that are literally causing it to lose participants, when we can clearly see the activity interest in GMRS increase, as ham radio interest decreases. And again, it is primarily related to repeater access on GMRS, so here is the simple solution…

 

1) Eliminate the testing requirement for an entry level amateur radio license.

 

2) Establish a license class that authorizes use of 2m and 70cm FM simplex and repeater access available for the price of admission ($35).

 

3) Allow up to 50 watts of transmitter output power (HT and mobile radio operation).

 

This is basically the same as GMRS (with the exception of the VHF access), and if GMRS does not require a license holder to demonstrate any knowledge of operation, than neither should amateur radio, for the same basic operating privileges. Beyond the requirement to identify your station every 10 minutes on the amateur bands, I don’t think there is anything else that a user of 2m or 70cm would need to know, relating to Part 97.

 

Should one want to further their involvement in amateur radio, then the usual process of testing can be followed, to permit the use of higher transmitter power, additional bands and modes of operation. But for amateur radio to try to have a gatekeeper in place for access to some VHF and UHF spectrum, in the form of a 35 question test, is archaic and useless at this point.  And it is only destroying the General Mobile Radio Service in the process.

 

And for the hams that would scream that this idea would destroy amateur radio…as a GMRS user, I am trying to save GMRS from the very situation you have created, so if you think my suggestion is wrong…then GFY. This is exactly what needs to happen, in order to save both amateur radio and GMRS.

 

 

 

Some of what you posted is accurate, but some is distorted and some is just plain wrong.

Although GMRS is used by people as a short range radio communication medium, at least for the people I know in radio, it's not an alternative to ham radio.  It's just a way to communicate.  I use GMRS for one reason only, to stay in communications with my friends when I'm out chasing rockets.  Someday, I'll also use it to talk to my grandkids.  I've given them FRS radios to play with. I don't ever leave my GMRS radio on so I can have conversations with people.  Even when I use my GMRS radio for rocketry I don't have conversations.  I simply use to to provide directions or notify someone of an impending launch.  

But there are a lot of other reasons I am a ham radio operator.  Primarily I am interested in the technology and learning more about it. I learn about antennas, digital modes, propagation, etc.  Occasionally, I listen to other people talking and sometimes I join in.

You're wrong also about ham radio losing participants.  The growth is not phenomenal, but it is positive.  I didn't check on CB.

At the end of 2018, the total number of hams in the US was 755,430, following steady growth for the previous several years.  At the end of 2022, the number of hams in the US was 768,942, 13,512 more than in 2018.  I didn't find the statistics for 2019 - 2022, these were the easiest statistics I found.

The fact is the GMRS is growing, not because ham radio is shrinking, but because it has changed into something that attracts more people.  Perhaps repeaters are part of that. Certainly, extremely lenient licensing is a driver.  GMRS is suffering growing pains. To blame those pains on any other service misses the mark.  To change the other services to fix GMRS is ludicrous.  You might just as well suggest that GMRS licenses go back up to $70 and for a shorter term, or implement theory and regulation testing to slow down the growth, or prohibit networking repeaters. Or issue a test to weed out sad hams. You cannot blame the problems in GMRS on amateur radio.  Nor can amateur radio problems be blamed on GMRS.

I suppose that means I should GFM. That also isn't going to happen.

[WRQC527]

I'm a ham because I enjoy the technical and experimental aspects of radio, and I enjoy making contacts around the world on H.F. I also like using it locally for communication with my many like-minded ham friends during outdoor activities like fishing and hiking. I use GMRS to communicate with my wife and other non-hams when I'm out hiking. That's why I got a GMRS license and GMRS gear. I'm not moving away from ham radio, I'm including it in my "tool box", as it were. Hopefully I'm not destroying both services by using both services. 

[MarkInTampa]

2 hours ago, WRAM370 said:

 



This is basically the same as GMRS (with the exception of the VHF access), and if GMRS does not require a license holder to demonstrate any knowledge of operation, than neither should amateur radio, for the same basic operating privileges. Beyond the requirement to identify your station every 10 minutes on the amateur bands, I don’t think there is anything else that a user of 2m or 70cm would need to know, relating to Part 97.

 

 

 

 

 

Mixed feelings on this. Used to hold a tech license but let it lapse years ago. I might have upgraded to other classes but at the time code was required for any advancement and I sure as hell didn't want to learn morse code. I didn't mind code, listened to it all the time through a Cantronics interface on a Vic-20 and could send through the computer just as well if I was licensed to do so.  Just figured why learn what a computer can do for me with a keystroke. It also decoded RTTY and other modes as well, and this was back in the late 80's. At least the FCC did away with code requirements. 

I got into GMRS 5 months ago after a 20+ year absence of any kind of radio. Also got into SDR radio and really enjoy listening to some of the very active 70cm repeaters running DMR repeaters that are connected across the country and world through SDR# and DMR and Fusion plugins. There is by far more activity on my local 70cm DMR and Fusion repeaters than GMRS but it is still only 3 or so DMR/Fusion repeaters out of dozens around here that carry 95% of 70cm traffic but I want to get on them. Last week I took the sample test and passed without a problem but to be fair it was because a lot of the questions were what I remembered from 25 years ago, using ohm's law at least weekly in my work life and common knowledge of radio operation. I'll still order up a flash card kit or something similar just to make sure it wasn't a fluke when I took the sample test before actually taking it. I have no idea what questions have really changed in the 25 years since last taking the tech test.

What does bother me about allowing a user on the 70cm/2m bands without knowledge of operation is just that. 2m and 70cm bands allow for all sorts of modes- DStar, Fusion, DMR, APRS, SSB and more not allowed on GMRS. More things like the ability to do cross band repeat, where the simplex/SSB/repeater preferred frequency are, etc. And again this is coming from a former ham that just got back into radio with GMRS. Passing a test doesn't mean I know more, less or am a moron for taking the test over somebody that doesn't want to or think its stupid, it just broadens what I'm allowed to do. I do believe there does need to be some type of test - simplify it to just what is needed for 2m/70cm but folks do need to know some of the basics of how these bands operate. A legal GMRS radio locks everything down for you, things like legal power limits on FRS channels and FM only. User knowledge isn't really required on GMRS but it gets a bit more complicated on 2m/70cm.

[bd348]

7 hours ago, Lscott said:

Well if it gets crowded enough maybe the FCC will expand the number of frequencies allowed.

May have antenna tuning issues if the freqs are far from the current ones.  Otherwise, a sensible idea if much of nearby ham freqs are unused.  Equipment would be just as locked down as current GMRS.