Hams on GMRS

[gortex2]

I know I am opening a can of worms but I'd really like to know a true answer on this. Why are there so many hams getting into GMRS vs staying on 440 ? More and more in my travels I hear ham chatter on GMRS. Yesterday I listened to a 30 minute conversation and about half way in realized it was on GMRS and not ham after turning my ham rig off and still hearing it. 

I don't get the lure to GMRS other than not having to follow certain rules ? I mean 440 had tons of repeaters pairs not used especially in rural America. If its truly because others in the family dont want to get a ham ticket ? I get that but rarely do I hear mom & dad or kid on the radio. Its always 2 or 3 hams (who sometimes give their ham call instead) babbling about this or that that happened on on xyz repeater or going to doctors or just nothing in general. 

I just find it odd.

[Sshannon]

Just now, gortex2 said:

I know I am opening a can of worms but I'd really like to know a true answer on this. Why are there so many hams getting into GMRS vs staying on 440 ? More and more in my travels I hear ham chatter on GMRS. Yesterday I listened to a 30 minute conversation and about half way in realized it was on GMRS and not ham after turning my ham rig off and still hearing it. 

I don't get the lure to GMRS other than not having to follow certain rules ? I mean 440 had tons of repeaters pairs not used especially in rural America. If its truly because others in the family dont want to get a ham ticket ? I get that but rarely do I hear mom & dad or kid on the radio. Its always 2 or 3 hams (who sometimes give their ham call instead) babbling about this or that that happened on on xyz repeater or going to doctors or just nothing in general. 

I just find it odd.

I don’t know, but I’m always game to speculate.  Could it be as simple as the fact that they operate  in an area where there is more access to a GMRS repeater? 

[MichaelLAX]

KD4MOT:

36 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

I just find it odd.

Some people just love to hear the sound of their own voice...

[WRKC935]

There's actually people to talk to on GMRS.

Ham is in an activity null.  At least with repeater activity, at least in my area.

I have a console system here that I use to talk on the radio.  It has 16 resources on it.  Four are GMRS, six are the local high profile ham repeaters. 

I hear GMRS traffic on  and off all day, especially on MidWest.  The only consistent ham stuff I hear is the club net and the ARES net on Monday and Tuesday nights on the local repeater.  ANd as soon as the net is over it goes silent.  No one even hangs around to chat.    Now that repeater VOICE ID's every 9 minutes.  And it has a second ID board that runs on the quarter hour.  So that one if you time it right will ID 3 times in a row.  That drives off he users.  But none of the repeaters are active very much other than that. 

 

[UncleYoda]

I don't need to explain nuthin'.  OP is very anti-HAM.

[marcspaz]

I can tell you why I am on GMRS often.  Availability, coverage and the people using it.  Though, that changes depending on where I am in the country.

 

I cannot tell you how many @$$h0l3s I run into on ham radio every day.  They think they are smarter than everyone else, and then use that very wrong opinion to assert their 'authority' (bad opinion stated as if it was a fact) over others.  Then there are the jammers, tuner-uppers, and people just plain-ole' showing their butt.  It makes me want to toss my gear in the trash some days.  I don't have that problem on GMRS.

 

On the GMRS side, we have local person here who used their personal time and money to put up repeaters on every pair and spread them around the DC metro area, just to make it so the community has something to use in an emergency (he's actually the opposite of what the jerks are in Ham radio).  Thanks to this person, there are 90+ miles of continuous coverage edge to edge; more than 6300 square miles.  You can double that coverage if you tolerate a 60%-70% reliability rate.  There isn't a single amateur radio repeater or club network that can match his coverage.

 

As far as who I talk to, my son is the only person in my family that has a Ham license and he doesn't even own any amateur radios.  My wife let hers expire more than a decade ago.  There are a small handful of friends that have their Ham license, but are rarely on the air.

 

Now, on the GMRS side, I literally have several dozen family and friends that are on GMRS or use FRS while we are out doing things together.  The lack of testing, the affordable gear and the fact that people like me are in their life to help with technical stuff, so they don't have to actually learn anything to simply use the radio, is a huge draw to them.  Many of them refuse to get their amateur radio license.

 

 

Side note on why I hate Ham Radio:  Before you read this... it may be long and boring, which is why I put it after the more relevant part of the post.  It is still relevant, because its a great example of why I as a Ham, prefer GMRS.  As you read this, keep in mind that on the amateur frequencies from 144 MHz to 148 MHz, FM signals are just a little more that 16 KHz wide on a properly running radio.  Also, based on the 16 KHz wide signal, the proper technical spacing between occupied frequencies is 20 KHz.  However, for some reason the community in about half the country opted to use 15 KHz channel spacing instead, which leads to overlap and interference.

 

Jerks in Ham radio never cease to amaze me.  I have an example from just a few days ago, while I was talking to a traveler on 146.520.  For our non-Ham friends, this is a calling frequency.  Meaning if you are looking for someone to talk to, you go to that frequency to call for other operators, and many operators listen here to chat, too.  Once you make contact, its customary to move the conversation to another frequency, but not required.  Often it is used continuously for hours at a time for contests and special events, or just for a couple of people to just chat.

 

I was talking on 146.520 to a person who was on the highway, traveling through the area on his way from PA to FL.  Total conversation was 6 minutes.  I figured it would be best to stay on that frequency, rather than to distract the driver by having him figure out how to adjust his radio while driving on the highway.  Especially since at 65-70 mph, it wouldn't be long before I couldn't hear him.

 

I had a guy come to 146.520 and yell at me because we were tying up "the calling frequency" instead of moving to another frequency.  He was also very mad because I was using about 200 watts and was splashing him and his friends on 146.535.  He was calling me names and generally being very rude. 

 

Well, I am not surprised he could hear me on 146.535, because (as mentioned earlier) a proper signal is a little more that 16 KHz and he was only 15 KHz away from 146.520.  Him and his friends should have picked the better channel spacing of 20 KHz (146.540) or more, so there was no overlap.  The power I was using was not an issue, because I could hear him splashing me... and I am assuming it was the overlap, not his power levels.

 

Among other things I can't type in a family friendly forum, he said my gear was crap and I am a bad operator who shouldn't even be on the radio because I was splashing him so bad that he couldn't talk to his friends.  He said that he hates new operators, can't believe they don't teach new people better manners and to follow the rules.  When I told him he didn't know what he was talking about and I was an operator for 20+ years, his answer was that he was a Ham for more than 60 years and knows more then new guys like me. LOL

 

The funny part of the whole situation is, in his eyes I'm the jerk who doesn't know anything and shouldn't be on the radio, but he was the one attacking me and insulting me while HE was using bad practices of not using proper channel spacing, being at least 20 KHz away from the most popular coordinated VHF frequency in amateur radio.

 

This stuff NEVER happens to me on GMRS.

[marcspaz]

6 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

I don't need to explain nuthin'.  OP is very anti-HAM.

 

This is a conversation group.  It's just a subject to talk about. Not a big deal, I think.

[Sshannon]

18 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

I don't need to explain nuthin'.  OP is very anti-HAM.

Regardless of any previous interactions you’ve had with the OP, it’s a politely presented and reasonable question. If you don’t have an answer or don’t wish to comment, that’s easily done without being negative. 

[gortex2]

51 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

I don't need to explain nuthin'.  OP is very anti-HAM.

Interesting you say this. I am a active ham and have been for over 25 years. I run multiple APRS digipeaters for SAR and personal use, as well as have multiple repeaters on the air. All are P25 but in the ham world. Additionally I help with another regional ham system that I'm not even able to use from home. Both myself and my wife have been hams for years. 

My issue with hams is very similar to @marcspaz brought up. I have removed repeaters for many of the common reasons, jammers, no use, no support. My main issue is 95% of the hams are just cheap. Spend $1500 on a HF rig but then complain their $29 CCR wont work on my P25 machine.

I asked a simple question hoping to get some clarification. 

[gortex2]

51 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

On the GMRS side, we have local person here who used their personal time and money to put up repeaters on every pair and spread them around the DC metro area, just to make it so the community has something to use in an emergency (he's actually the opposite of what the jerks are in Ham radio).  Thanks to this person, there are 90+ miles of continuous coverage edge to edge; more than 6300 square miles.  You can double that coverage if you tolerate a 60%-70% reliability rate.  There isn't a single amateur radio repeater or club network that can match his coverage.

Thanks @marcspaz. I travel thru the metro DC area weekly (multiple days) yet never hear much chatter on GMRS. I scan the RPT channels in CSQ but never hear alot. Normally when I get over near Annapolis I'll pick up some guys but they are never clear so normally turn down the radio. I'll have to look into the repeaters and get them loaded in my APX with tones. 

[WRUU653]

I don’t have a ham ticket and have wondered about this very question. I live in an area that seems to have more Ham traffic but I wouldn’t say it’s excessive. About five frequencies if you include the PAPA repeater south of me seem to get some use that I have noticed. A small amount of traffic on GMRS with a few repeaters. One is about 4 miles from me and has great coverage. 
The Hams here seem respectful and from the traffic I hear a lot of them also have their GMRS license and may be responsible for a couple GMRS repeaters (thank you). I just figured people who like radios like radios…

I appreciate marcspaz taking the time to share his experience and perspective to give some insight on how some Hams may have gravitated towards GMRS. 

[marcspaz]

29 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

Thanks @marcspaz. I travel thru the metro DC area weekly (multiple days) yet never hear much chatter on GMRS. I scan the RPT channels in CSQ but never hear alot. Normally when I get over near Annapolis I'll pick up some guys but they are never clear so normally turn down the radio. I'll have to look into the repeaters and get them loaded in my APX with tones. 

 

There are a few retired folks and a couple who work from home, that kind of hover around 18, 19 and 20 during the day.  A couple of them are members here.

 

You will be more likely to get a response in 18 (127.3) while north of DC on the east side of the Bmore and DC beltway. The 20 pair (675) is good for the same group of folks, plus a bit more as you get into DC and NOVA. And the 19 pair (650) is good from Leesburg to Warrenton. It's a bit splashy along 95 from the Pentagon and points south, as it's on Bull Run mountain. 

 

At night and on the weekends you will hear us mostly on 19.  My call is WRBY328. Give me a call an 19 or 20 (20 is better) when you're around. I'm usually on my way to work around 10 to 11 AM and on my way back to the home office after 5ish.

[axorlov]

5 hours ago, gortex2 said:

I get that but rarely do I hear mom & dad or kid on the radio

I rarely hear anybody on the radio. It's because I use DCT!

My reason for GMRS license was to have comms between family and friends when camping, hiking, kayaking etc. At the time I've got license my kids were pre-teens, and my wife had zero interest in getting ham license. We used GMRS actively over the years. My daughter is a ham too, but it is simpler for us to grab GMRS radios when we both out on MTB or on foot. Now when kids are adults and have their own interests, I mostly carry ham HT.

And DCT or not, there is very little traffic on air in Sierra Nevada and in foothills. You will hear people around campgrounds and marinas, but wander a few miles up the trail and there is nothing.

[Lscott]

Around the Detroit area 2M and 70cm are dead most of the time. Many of the repeaters see little use. 
 

On 70cm with 20MHz of spectrum it’s easy to get lost in it if you’re looking to talk to somebody. 
 

On GMRS you only have a handful of frequencies to use so it doesn’t take much to find activity. On the Ham 70cm band yeah you have some grumpy people. With GMRS it’s geared for “family” use and the range of permissible uses is far greater than the Ham band allows. 
 

On GMRS everyone has the same type of license call, none of the 1x2, 1x3 etc. calls depending your license class. Some Hams won’t talk to somebody with a tech class call for example. On GMRS nobody cares how much DX you’ve worked, how fast you can send and receive CW, you run 1500 watts into an antenna on a 200 foot tower in your yard etc., it levels the field.

[MarkInTampa]

I was a licensed ham 25-30 years ago and it was fun at first, then a lot of drama between two clubs. If I got caught talking to one person from one of the clubs the other would disown you. Reminded me of a bunch of high school girls. When I moved out of state I sold it all off and let my license expire. 

Fast forward to a few months ago and decided to get my GMRS license and give radio another shot. GMRS has been fun, no drama yet. Also got into SDR (software defined radio) and have really been enjoying listening to a couple of very active nationally linked 70cm DMR repeaters in the area. Now thinking of getting my ham license back just to play around with DMR. 2 meter is pretty much dead and 90% of non DMR traffic on 70cm are the weekly net's in my area. I took the sample test a few days ago and passed with a 85% score on a whim without looking at any kind of study guide since I took my last test 28 years ago. I'll probably go ahead and get my amateur license back one of these days but I'll still have a GMRS radio running next to it. 

[labreja]

gortex2,

I am a newly licensed ham as well as a newly licensed GMRS operator. 

Personally, I did so for 2 reasons. The first is, I am extremely nervous about pressing that PPT button.  (Kind of shy) I believe the GMRS community is less stringent or more understanding of new operators who may make mistakes, which makes pressing that PTT button easier on GMRS.  The second reason is, my wife has no desire to get a ham license. I wanted to be able to help educate her on the use of radios if things turned south and we needed another way to communicate. So, I helped her get her own GMRS license.  We practice communicating often, between our vehicles as well using our base to our vehicles.  She has requested permission from local repeater owners, and when she receives those permissions, we will start to practice using the repeaters as well.  Introducing the grandkids will be next.  

I hope this makes since and helps.
 

[pcradio]

Thank you @gortex2 for raising the question. The dialog can be healthy. I think @labreja accurately describes the major reason why.

What HAM was and what it has become are two different things. The way NotaRubicon for example, responds to them on his very popular channel is telling. Today, HAM represents itself to the public as an exclusive club of what behind the scenes (not everywhere) is in all actuality an archaic system of dated and unhelpful rules. This means that the people on those repeaters and frequencies are potentially unwelcome to newcomers that don't share their biases and beliefs. The general public feels this way. That is a problem whether it is true or not.

GMRS is the polar opposite. It is welcoming, friendly, and encourages the free discourse of discussion over a really cool medium (aka radio) without having made everyone learn a bunch of totally irrelevant ideology just to use a frequency and talk on it.

However, not every HAM is that way, of course.

We need licensing over frequencies, not radios types, not how many radios you have in your truck, not how much money you have, not how big a bully you are, not how much of a school hall monitor nazi you are. Like real sensible reasons for why we do things. Its just so totally crazy what drives the HAM market ecosystem.

However, I'm somewhat saddened to see GMRS become like HAM. We would all be better served if GMRS was for "groups" and HAM was for experimentation and the like. This means sharing of frequencies between the two. The only reason I have a HAM ticket was to gain access to the frequencies, not to become an enforcer of peevishness.

 

 

 

[Sshannon]

I might be the exception here. Although I’ve been in love with the idea of talking to people half a world away since the Man from UNCLE show, and I intended to become a ham radio operator since the days of the Benton Harbor lunchbox radios (portable 6 m and 2 m transceivers made by Heathkit) I never got around to it. 
But I’ve been using GMRS radios for rocketry for a long time. 
A little over a year ago I decided to get legal and I finally bought a GMRS license. That got me interested in the technology again and a year ago I took my ham radio tests and got my Extra license. 
I don’t see competition between the two except on the forums. My ham radio friends are all interested in GMRS radios as well and I guess I am just lucky enough that I haven’t run across sad hams in person or on the local airwaves. For me, they’re complementary. My grandkids have FRS radios. I can give one of my GMRS radios to my wife. And who knows, someday maybe my kids or grandkids will want to know more about radio. 

[MichaelLAX]

On 1/8/2023 at 8:10 PM, Sshannon said:

Although I’ve been in love with the idea of talking to people half a world away since the Man from UNCLE show, and I intended to become a ham radio operator since the days of the Benton Harbor lunchbox radios (portable 6 m and 2 m transceivers made by Heathkit) I never got around to it. 

Check out this thread and this article for some "mods" for the Twoer. 

I always wanted the Lawrence Engineering Superheterodyne modification but I have never been able to find one on eBay.

 

[WRKC935]

10 hours ago, marcspaz said:

I can tell you why I am on GMRS often.  Availability, coverage and the people using it.  Though, that changes depending on where I am in the country.

 

I cannot tell you how many @$$h0l3s I run into on ham radio every day.  They think they are smarter than everyone else, and then use that very wrong opinion to assert their 'authority' (bad opinion stated as if it was a fact) over others.  Then there are the jammers, tuner-uppers, and people just plain-ole' showing their butt.  It makes me want to toss my gear in the trash some days.  I don't have that problem on GMRS.

 

On the GMRS side, we have local person here who used their personal time and money to put up repeaters on every pair and spread them around the DC metro area, just to make it so the community has something to use in an emergency (he's actually the opposite of what the jerks are in Ham radio).  Thanks to this person, there are 90+ miles of continuous coverage edge to edge; more than 6300 square miles.  You can double that coverage if you tolerate a 60%-70% reliability rate.  There isn't a single amateur radio repeater or club network that can match his coverage.

 

As far as who I talk to, my son is the only person in my family that has a Ham license and he doesn't even own any amateur radios.  My wife let hers expire more than a decade ago.  There are a small handful of friends that have their Ham license, but are rarely on the air.

 

Now, on the GMRS side, I literally have several dozen family and friends that are on GMRS or use FRS while we are out doing things together.  The lack of testing, the affordable gear and the fact that people like me are in their life to help with technical stuff, so they don't have to actually learn anything to simply use the radio, is a huge draw to them.  Many of them refuse to get their amateur radio license.

 

 

Side note on why I hate Ham Radio:  Before you read this... it may be long and boring, which is why I put it after the more relevant part of the post.  It is still relevant, because its a great example of why I as a Ham, prefer GMRS.  As you read this, keep in mind that on the amateur frequencies from 144 MHz to 148 MHz, FM signals are just a little more that 16 KHz wide on a properly running radio.  Also, based on the 16 KHz wide signal, the proper technical spacing between occupied frequencies is 20 KHz.  However, for some reason the community in about half the country opted to use 15 KHz channel spacing instead, which leads to overlap and interference.

 

Jerks in Ham radio never cease to amaze me.  I have an example from just a few days ago, while I was talking to a traveler on 146.520.  For our non-Ham friends, this is a calling frequency.  Meaning if you are looking for someone to talk to, you go to that frequency to call for other operators, and many operators listen here to chat, too.  Once you make contact, its customary to move the conversation to another frequency, but not required.  Often it is used continuously for hours at a time for contests and special events, or just for a couple of people to just chat.

 

I was talking on 146.520 to a person who was on the highway, traveling through the area on his way from PA to FL.  Total conversation was 6 minutes.  I figured it would be best to stay on that frequency, rather than to distract the driver by having him figure out how to adjust his radio while driving on the highway.  Especially since at 65-70 mph, it wouldn't be long before I couldn't hear him.

 

I had a guy come to 146.520 and yell at me because we were tying up "the calling frequency" instead of moving to another frequency.  He was also very mad because I was using about 200 watts and was splashing him and his friends on 146.535.  He was calling me names and generally being very rude. 

 

Well, I am not surprised he could hear me on 146.535, because (as mentioned earlier) a proper signal is a little more that 16 KHz and he was only 15 KHz away from 146.520.  Him and his friends should have picked the better channel spacing of 20 KHz (146.540) or more, so there was no overlap.  The power I was using was not an issue, because I could hear him splashing me... and I am assuming it was the overlap, not his power levels.

 

Among other things I can't type in a family friendly forum, he said my gear was crap and I am a bad operator who shouldn't even be on the radio because I was splashing him so bad that he couldn't talk to his friends.  He said that he hates new operators, can't believe they don't teach new people better manners and to follow the rules.  When I told him he didn't know what he was talking about and I was an operator for 20+ years, his answer was that he was a Ham for more than 60 years and knows more then new guys like me. LOL

 

The funny part of the whole situation is, in his eyes I'm the jerk who doesn't know anything and shouldn't be on the radio, but he was the one attacking me and insulting me while HE was using bad practices of not using proper channel spacing, being at least 20 KHz away from the most popular coordinated VHF frequency in amateur radio.

 

This stuff NEVER happens to me on GMRS.

200 watts huh?  Try for real 2.5KW ERP on VHF.

Story behind this.   Local repeater was acting up one night during a net.  It had basically gone deaf due to the crap duplexer it had that was older than sin. 

Several of us get on and are having problems getting in.  One of the local super hammies with his Miracle Ear service monitor tells us we ALL are having issues with OUR gear and the repeater is just fine.  He had just looked at it.  SO I am on the beam already, running about 2 watts with 13dB of gain on the beam.  Crank up to 10 watts, still noisy.  OK, MO PAWA... 140 watts in the the beam.  Still noisy.  Switch over to the repeater OUTPUT frequency and blow through the thing blanking it out just like the guys on the bowl (ch6).  About that time a guy comes in from 60 miles away telling me to turn it down I am 40 over at that distance.  Told him I was trying to prove a point.  Several others keyed up and gave me hell for tossing a signal like that at the repeater as well.  Of course, Miracle Max Throws his ID and clears the frequency.  They finally got the hint and replaced the duplexer with another antique that wasn't much better.

And that's FAR from the only story I can tell you about ham's and their silliness.  But I don't really want to turn this into a ham bashing thread.  But that would be fun.

 

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, WRKC935 said:

About that time a guy comes in from 60 miles away telling me to turn it down I am 40 over at that distance.

 

That's actually pretty impressive.  I'm curious if the person on the other end ever told you what they were running, since they were able to make it back to you?  +40 at 60 miles is no joke.

 

1 hour ago, WRKC935 said:

And that's FAR from the only story I can tell you about ham's and their silliness.  But I don't really want to turn this into a ham bashing thread.  But that would be fun.

 

 

LOL... that would be fun.  There is no shortage of material, that's for sure. 

[PACNWComms]

In my case a GMRS license allows me to give a cheap and useful radio to all family members, including those that do not wish to study for an amateur license.

GMRS also has longer range due to higher output power than the 900 MHz ISM band Motorola frequency hoppers we also commonly use. I have also owned many Garmin Rino GPS/FRS/GMRS radios, which made this decision easy.

UHF in my corner of the country is saturated with users; commercial, public safety, amateur and GMRS. This drove me to initially use the ISM band Motorola radios (DTR410/550/650) series. But with much of the national parks also monitoring GMRS for lost hikers, I expanded my use from ISM for voice comms and Garmin Rino's for location and the map that can show other users in my group, to going legit on the GMRS license and getting newer GMRS gear, to augment voice communications. 

Now, if only Garmin and Motorola would team up and make a 900 MHz ISM / UHF GMRS band radio with GPS and mapping on the screen, I would buy a few of those for sure. Amateur is more of an added option now for me, I work for a company that uses amateur radio to augment public safety radio networks and integrates amateur volunteers when they are willing to get FEMA ICS training. AuxComm and EmComm elements sometimes work, if the ego's are kept in check. I will still use amateur radio, but GMRs is more useful, and more people seem to get repeaters up to grow the local networks, maybe to our detriment.

[tweiss3]

I use GMRS out with the family unit all the time. Be it car to car, or handhelds out and about at events. I have had a few "rag-chew" conversations with a friend (ham and GMRS) who's neighborhood was using GMRS as a way to check on each other, and we were having a conversation to get his neighbor more comfortable being on the air.

I do know what @marcspazmeans though, I've run into a few grumpys on the air that were just not pleasant to deal with. One was while I was driving a part of the state I was not usually in, but had repeaters programmed. I was trying to find any repeater to talk on. One I could key, and clearly hear the other goober yelling at me because he couldn't hear me. I tried at 5 mile intervals for a while, and he was just needed to turn up his hearing aids (presumed) because there is no way I could have heard him as clear as I did for as long as I did without making into the repeater clearly at some point. I have also run into some people that were just not a pleasure to talk to on GMRS, but I've learned quickly, not worth the time and I just move on.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, tweiss3 said:

One I could key, and clearly hear the other goober yelling at me because he couldn't hear me. I tried at 5 mile intervals for a while, and he was just needed to turn up his hearing aids (presumed)

Maybe the batteries were dead and he didn't notice.

[MichaelLAX]

2 hours ago, tweiss3 said:

I do know what @marcspazmeans though, I've run into a few grumpys on the air that were just not pleasant to deal with...

Try listening to 75 meters AM at night!