GMRS 10-Codes

[WRVG593]

This is kind of a branch off of another post I made on the general forum. I figure most people who browse this forum would be more knowledgeable and maybe be able to open a discussion on their interpretation. This relates to the FCC rules stating there will be no usage of words used to convey hidden meaning, with the exception of '10-codes' such as 10-4. In this I would like 3 questions to be explored.

1. What constitutes hiding meaning

2. What constitutes a 10 code

3. At what point am i not 'hiding' my code

To begin, I will post paste the FCC Rule straight from the website. 

§ 95.1733 Prohibited GMRS uses.

(a) In addition to the prohibited uses outlined in § 95.333 of this chapter, GMRS stations must not communicate:

(3) Coded messages or messages with hidden meanings (“10 codes” are permissible);

So first off, we will discuss what constitutes a hidden meaning. Someone made a decent comment in the other post that really struck my attention. At what point does short talk become hidden meaning? Yes we all know what 10-4 is due to movies, tv shows, and being radio dorks, but theoretically not everyone can know this. Also, if I was telling someone to grab a  [Raychem (manufacture) F-81 RG58 (come in a red clip, RG59 come in blue) connectors. I could see how the phrase "Red Raychem" could refer to lots of things, possibly even drugs, if you were not in the trade and even then only if you use Raychem products.]. By this logic, any shorthand talk other than 10 codes are hidden meaning, are they not?

2. What constitutes a 10 code

Under the FCC 95.1733 there is no OFFICIAL 10 code list. In fact, another person made a very good point in the other thread as well. There are 10 codes that don't match other departments. [Around here you could ask a LEO for a 10-21 and a Firefighter for a 10-21 ... one would call you, the other bring you a 2 1/2 inch hose.]

Which is a very good point. Without an official FCC 10 code, does adding 10 in front of your code make it a 10 code? As another poster said, [If I say I'm 10-365 WTH does that mean? Am I legal because I used a 10 code? Even 10-100 has different meanings to different people. Personally, I think I'm 10-733.] 

3. At what point am I no longer hiding my code

Furthermore, if I was to publish online my 10 Codes, let's say 10-1 is Unit En Route, 10-2 is Unit Stopped, 10-3 is Unit Broke down, and published it in a public space, is it no longer a hidden meaning? If I publish it online, have the codes readily avaliable to anyone who asks, and have them ready and printed, how are they a hidden code? If willing to give to any LEO, FCC agent, or Public Citizen with the exception of foreign ambassadors, why would it not be permissible? 

Remember to keep the comments cordial. This is meant to be a productive, fun, and thought provoking conversation. Please enlighten me! 

[WRVG593]

Example of Posted 10 Codes

An example of using this code would be "593 to 346 I'm 10-1, I got a 10-7, turning into 10-8." '346 10-4, I'm 10-2 but will be 10-1 in 5 minutes'. 

[gortex2]

Again we are beating a dead horse. If you want to use some 10 code use it. I can say in Public Safety world very little of the 10 code system is still in play. Other than 10-4 you wont hear it much in public safety. In SAR we have a few "CODES" for critical information but to be honest just go to encryption if we need to discuss that.

[WRUU653]

23 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

Again we are beating a dead horse. If you want to use some 10 code use it. I can say in Public Safety world very little of the 10 code system is still in play. Other than 10-4 you wont hear it much in public safety. In SAR we have a few "CODES" for critical information but to be honest just go to encryption if we need to discuss that

Well maybe east coast is different than west coast, I hear 10 codes in public safety all day long here. Police, EMS, Fire…

https://www.lospadrescounty.net/et/codes.html

[pcradio]

You've come across archaic sections of the FCC rules. Imagine someone telling you that you can't say, "Meet you at the rendezvous, over." vs explicitly saying where and what you are doing. You have a brain. Its okay to use your brain. Its okay to think and reason. You are better, and always will be than ChatGPT and its endless database entries of biased entries.

[WRUU653]

3 minutes ago, pcradio said:

You've come across archaic sections of the FCC rules. Imagine someone telling you that you can't say, "Meet you at the rendezvous, over." vs explicitly saying where and what you are doing. You have a brain. Its okay to use your brain.

I would add you have a cell phone. It’s okay to use your cell phone. I mean seriously if you want a private conversation radio isn’t it. Sure there’s encrypted radios but that’s not GMRS. Op is looking for a solution where there is no problem. 
I’m 10-98

[WRVG593]

4 hours ago, gortex2 said:

Again we are beating a dead horse. If you want to use some 10 code use it. I can say in Public Safety world very little of the 10 code system is still in play. Other than 10-4 you wont hear it much in public safety. In SAR we have a few "CODES" for critical information but to be honest just go to encryption if we need to discuss that.

That didn't at all talk about what I was talking about though. The top 3 questions being if the essence. What 10 code do you use? If I add 10 in front of it does it work? At what point am I hiding meaning? And at what point am I no longer hiding my code? This isn't a discussion on should you use 10 codes, but a discussion in the legality of making your own 10 codes. 

[WRUU653]

7 minutes ago, WRVG593 said:

but a discussion in the legality of making your own 10 codes

1)What constitutes hiding? Really? This is a question? The act of concealing; concealment.  If you’re doing it to hide what you are saying it isn’t legal. Not difficult at all to understand.

2)What is a ten code https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-code

3)At what point am I not hiding my code? When other people understand it, you know like the people at the FCC for example. 

…sigh

 

[WRVG593]

3 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

1)What constitutes hiding? Really? This is a question? The act of concealing; concealment.  If you’re doing it to hide what you are saying it isn’t legal. Not difficult at all to understand.

2)What is a ten code https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-code

3)At what point am I not hiding my code? When other people understand it, you know like the people at the FCC for example. 

…sigh

 

1. The discussion is about at what point does shorthand talk become "hidden messages". If I tell someone to grab a squeemy jeemy, and that means to go get me a 10mm wrench with an extension, is that not a hidden meaning?

2. Ten codes are not standardized according to the FCC. Police codes and EMS codes may be different. East coast 10 codes may be different than west coast codes. So who's 10 code do we follow? What makes some 10 codes okay and others not?

3. The point if this discussion is about what constitutes hiding if it is publicized. If I publish the codes online, make it avaliable to Public, able to provide links, printed papers, and give any and all information to the FCC at their demand, how would it be hiding? It was (1) publicly posted. (2) avaliable upon demand. (3) Written out for others to see

[WRQC527]

I'm just wondering... And anyone feel free to chime in here. Who, exactly, is monitoring my GMRS communications for hidden meanings, and more importantly, am I going to get busted for asking my wife to "Rendezvous at Location Sierra Bravo" instead of saying "Meet me at Sonic Burger"? 

[WRUU653]

9 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

Who, exactly, is monitoring my GMRS communications for hidden meanings, and more importantly, am I going to get busted for asking my wife to "Rendezvous at Location Sierra Bravo" instead of saying "Meet me at Sonic Burger

His name is Carl and he’s good with the burger meet up

[WRUU653]

21 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

am I going to get busted for asking my wife to "Rendezvous at Location Sierra Bravo" instead of saying "Meet me at Sonic Burger

Maybe if she thinks you want to rendezvous in Santa Barbara… clear communication could be important

[WRPQ991]

What happens when a soldier speaks to a truck driver? Both have special acronyms and codes, Then a LEO gets involved, again different codes. So, a lawyer who  speaks in circles and is incapable of answering a simple question gets involved with alot of leagaleese and double speak so it's nearly impossible to get a clear message. The FCC does not understand or really care so the OK it and there we have it..Everything should be in clear and concise English.   And Alice Cooper says "mixerthingwhaynowbatcrapwhatdaywasitbefore." and we are all confused. 

[WQAI363]

Last year when I was working at MS 150 City to Shore, I was assigned to working Dispatch / Net Control.  I did receive some slack from a fellow Amateur Radio for using 10 codes on the 2m repeater and GMRS repeater. Of course, I understand what that person saying, you don't want to heard, that's a BIG 10-4 GOOD BUDDY. After all, the 11 meter dwellers have really made a mockery of what started in the public safety.

Sometimes have problems with my speech, but I figured using Ten Codes help me conveying information that I need to get out. There's nothing wrong with using Ten Codes on GMRS or Amateur Radio, as long as the group that you're working are on board with the protocol.

[WRVG593]

22 hours ago, Adamdaj said:

Last year when I was working at MS 150 City to Shore, I was assigned to working Dispatch / Net Control.  I did receive some slack from a fellow Amateur Radio for using 10 codes on the 2m repeater and GMRS repeater. Of course, I understand what that person saying, you don't want to heard, that's a BIG 10-4 GOOD BUDDY. After all, the 11 meter dwellers have really made a mockery of what started in the public safety.

Sometimes have problems with my speech, but I figured using Ten Codes help me conveying information that I need to get out. There's nothing wrong with using Ten Codes on GMRS or Amateur Radio, as long as the group that you're working are on board with the protocol.

What protocol? There's no listed 10 codes. We can say LEO, Firefighter, etc. But they all have different codes

[marcspaz]

 

First, you have to understand the history of the restriction.  This type of rule is what is commonly referred to as a Sentence Enhancer.  Meaning, if you are committing crimes... you are going to be charged with violating the law.  If you use a radio to commit the crime, you now have violated another law and will be charged with another crime.  If you used codded messages, concealment or some means to hide the fact that you are breaking the law while using a radio to do it, this Rule becomes a sentence enhancer for the Law you violated and you are now charged with 2 counts of violating the law restricting the use of the personal radio service to commit a crime.

 

If you are very obviously talking in some type of code, are caught and are suspected of committing a crime because you are violating this rule, even if you are found not to be committing a crime, you risk getting anything from a No-No letter from the FCC to jail time.  So, since I am pretty sure you already know the answer to your own question, just don't be a dumb-dumb about it and you will be fine.

Quote

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that. ~ United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart

 

Don't attempt to define the undefinable.  If what you are saying is public knowledge, generally published, or generally excepted as not a cipher, code or some form of concealment, everyone listing will know.  Context is everything.

[WRUU653]

On 3/7/2023 at 9:05 AM, WRVG593 said:

This isn't a discussion on should you use 10 codes, but a discussion in the legality of making your own 10 codes. 

Oh now you control the discussion?

On 3/7/2023 at 1:06 PM, WRVG593 said:

The point if this discussion is about what constitutes hiding if it is publicized

I thought you said it was about making your own 10 codes.

 

On 3/7/2023 at 1:06 PM, WRVG593 said:

The discussion is about at what point does shorthand talk become "hidden messages

so many points

 

23 minutes ago, WRVG593 said:

There's no listed 10 codes

Really? Here are listed 10 codes for this area  https://www.lospadrescounty.net/et/codes.html

I’m starting to think you don’t actually have a point. 

29 minutes ago, WRVG593 said:

But they all have different codes

So what. What is your point?

[WRQC527]

It's interesting to note that according to APCO, the folks who came up with the whole idea of shorthand codes 85 years ago, 10-codes have been slowly phased out of public safety radio over the past ten years in favor of good old plain speech, for one reason because there are too many variations. So instead of saying 10-100, we can all simply say we need to pull over and take a ____. 

[marcspaz]

10-4 on the 10-100.  QRX 0415 UTC. QSL

[WRQC527]

2 hours ago, marcspaz said:

10-4 on the 10-100.

Mercy sakes looks like we got us a convoy.

And for those of you who haven't heard it, I highly recommend searching YouTube for CB Savage, another gem from the golden age of Citizens Band. That's not where this particular lyric is from, but it's a fun song.

[WRCZ387]

39 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

And for those of you who haven't heard it, I highly recommend searching YouTube for CB Savage, another gem from the golden age of Citizens Band.

And, IMO, The White Knight

73

[WRWM700]

There is a level of overthinking here I didn't think was actually possible.

1. First off, these are rules, not laws. Secondly (and legally - wife is a lawyer) hidden meaning can only be determined on a case by case basis. I could say "Be sure to deliver the package where it will be seen" and literally mean leave the damn box where the idiot recipient will see it this time. Or I could mean leave the explosives where they would have the most effect. Until something has happened and the audio (just example) is played in court, it's just words spoken OTA. Those rules and regs are specifically there and constructed the way they are so that Uncle Sam can haul your ass off to Gitmo if you decided to use GMRS for terrorist purposes. Again though, until said terrorists do something or are placed under investigation, it's just words OTA.

2. The FCC does not have a 10 codes list because they are regional in nature and are not even uniform across counties, let alone the USA as a whole. They mean if you're using your 10-codes list, then that's OK, it's allowed.

3. At any time, you are not assumed to be hiding anything unless there's proof beyond a reasonable doubt you are. See #1. You can use any 10 codes list you want, including your own, without publishing it anywhere. No one will assume you're hiding something. They will assume you're some type of weirdo nerd radio person though, so be prepared for that.

In conclusion, this is just a whole other kind of over analysis. @OffRoaderX made an excellent point in one of his videos: The number of GMRS rule enforcement actions by the FCC is 0. "They don't care." This is something folks who have used 11m band know all too well. 4W main/12W SSB PEP is the legal limit for power there. I can point you to countless FB groups, forums, YT channels, etc. of folks who not only know this, but flaunt it. We're talking 10,000W+ amplifiers, both tube and pill. Giant 7+ element, high gain beam antennas making their ERP 30,000+ watts. Let's make up a number of 100 for example purposes here. Every year, of those 100 wattmongers, maybe 5 will get busted and even then most times it's a fine issued ($5k+ so it does sting). No equipment confiscation, just a fine and a "don't do that again, please". Most times these folks make amps for sale and a "nice" one (one that has a decent LPF) that's say, 2000W will run about $2500-$3000. You can now just imagine how much they care about a $5k fine.

"They don't care."

[WRQC527]

 

42 minutes ago, WRWM700 said:

The number of GMRS rule enforcement actions by the FCC is 0. "They don't care."

It goes deeper than that. They're not even watching.

[WRKC935]

Wow, lots of talk over a topic that's WELL covered.

You can use 10 codes on GMRS if they are the standard 'published' list of 10 codes.  Making up your own does skate into the questionable side of things however.

Bigger issue is WHERE are you going to be using them?  If you are either talking simplex or talking on a repeater YOU own, then again, nothing wrong with that.

If you are on a repeater that is owned by someone else, they have the right to ask you to NOT use 10 codes or for that matter they can control topics of discussion in general or ask you to NOT use their repeater at all.  And once told to not use the repeater, you have to comply with that. 

There seems to be too many interpretations of the rules for GMRS.  But this is my version.

 

[marcspaz]

14 hours ago, WRWM700 said:

There is a level of overthinking here I didn't think was actually possible.

1. First off, these are rules, not laws. Secondly (and legally - wife is a lawyer) hidden meaning can only be determined on a case by case basis. I could say "Be sure to deliver the package where it will be seen" and literally mean leave the damn box where the idiot recipient will see it this time. Or I could mean leave the explosives where they would have the most effect. Until something has happened and the audio (just example) is played in court, it's just words spoken OTA. Those rules and regs are specifically there and constructed the way they are so that Uncle Sam can haul your ass off to Gitmo if you decided to use GMRS for terrorist purposes. Again though, until said terrorists do something or are placed under investigation, it's just words OTA.

2. The FCC does not have a 10 codes list because they are regional in nature and are not even uniform across counties, let alone the USA as a whole. They mean if you're using your 10-codes list, then that's OK, it's allowed.

3. At any time, you are not assumed to be hiding anything unless there's proof beyond a reasonable doubt you are. See #1. You can use any 10 codes list you want, including your own, without publishing it anywhere. No one will assume you're hiding something. They will assume you're some type of weirdo nerd radio person though, so be prepared for that.

In conclusion, this is just a whole other kind of over analysis. @OffRoaderX made an excellent point in one of his videos: The number of GMRS rule enforcement actions by the FCC is 0. "They don't care." This is something folks who have used 11m band know all too well. 4W main/12W SSB PEP is the legal limit for power there. I can point you to countless FB groups, forums, YT channels, etc. of folks who not only know this, but flaunt it. We're talking 10,000W+ amplifiers, both tube and pill. Giant 7+ element, high gain beam antennas making their ERP 30,000+ watts. Let's make up a number of 100 for example purposes here. Every year, of those 100 wattmongers, maybe 5 will get busted and even then most times it's a fine issued ($5k+ so it does sting). No equipment confiscation, just a fine and a "don't do that again, please". Most times these folks make amps for sale and a "nice" one (one that has a decent LPF) that's say, 2000W will run about $2500-$3000. You can now just imagine how much they care about a $5k fine.

"They don't care."

 

I just want to know if you guys are making it do dinner on the 25th. All this other stuff is a silly distraction. LoL