Approved for Ham & GMRS radios

[pcradio]

When rules are amoral, they deserve push back. Think people, use your brain. Its okay to think. You were challenged with the idea that "rule following" has a danger. There is a danger with Part 95E style thinking. Not anywhere to the same level as Rosa Parks, and that was not the point. But you are not a 5yr old, you can handle a comparative thought process.

[pcradio]

1 hour ago, BoxCar said:

Rosa Parks was sitting in seats marked for "colored" and not in seats for "whites." She refused to move from her seat when a white couldn't find another seat. Now, if you are going to make statements about historic events you need to verify your facts first. 

Facts where linked and verified. Rosa did not have permission (implied) under a condition.

[pcradio]

4 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Oh please…  Such suffering you are enduring.

I have permissions for Amateur/GMRS/MURS and I wish to exercise my permissions. This would mean three mobile radios in the truck, and another three on my person. This is a total waste of space and resources. Humorously (disturbingly), the hardware is often identical!

[BoxCar]

1 hour ago, pcradio said:

Facts where linked and verified. Rosa did not have permission (implied) under a condition.

SHEESH! Ever used Wikipedia or even done a search about Rosa Parks. You are obfuscating your lack of performing research and fact verification just like a prominent political candidate campaigning for relection.

[WRQC527]

Internet Troll

A mythological internet being that lives under an internet bridge. Loves to hunt for innocent netizens.

Common tactics: antagonizing other netizens by posting racist or offensive comments, or just plain rants.

Weakness: being outwitted or unable to antagonize others

The amusing thing is wondering what this pc fella's going to say next. I mean, obviously, we went well beyond a normal thread into the septic tank of the internet on about page three, and here we are on page five with no end in sight. We could all just ignore him, but my God this just keeps getting more entertaining. I feel like I'm playing with one of those Flat Earth folks.

 

[axorlov]

GMRS is in the middle of business band, so the technical requirements are identical to Part 90. For example, stability must be 2.5ppm for 25KHz channels and 1.5ppm for 12.5KHz channels. Ham gear does not have such strict requirements. It is only recently (few years) when new ham HTs and mobiles started to satisfy that spec. Majority of older ham gear is drifty.

This thread shows quite well, that when "I know what I'm doing" is uttered, it is a very strong signal that person has no clue. :rolleyes

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, axorlov said:

GMRS is in the middle of business band, so the technical requirements are identical to Part 90. For example, stability must be 2.5ppm for 25KHz channels and 1.5ppm for 12.5KHz channels. Ham gear does not have such strict requirements. It is only recently (few years) when new ham HTs and mobiles started to satisfy that spec. Majority of older ham gear is drifty.

This thread shows quite well, that when "I know what I'm doing" is uttered, it is a very strong signal that person has no clue. :rolleyes

The commercial digital radios have better frequency stability spec’s.

It’s necessary due to the quad frequency modulation, 4 discrete frequency shifts, used. If the frequency drifts too far off the radio can’t detect the particular dibit, two bits encoded per frequency shift, being sent resulting in a higher bit error rate. That’s by the way why people have to tweak their hotspot frequency.

The other reason if the frequency drifts too much the RX radio will loose sync with the data stream if the transmission lasts too long, mismatch between TX and RX data rates. Then the communication fails. The same frequency reference use for TX and RX is also used for the data stream bit timing.

The various digital modes standards have spec’s for the above.

I wouldn’t be surprised that the cheap Chinese digital radios have a tendency to experience drop outs due to the above. Some of those radios have crummy frequency stability specs to save money on a better reference oscillator. For amateur use the dropouts aren’t critical. However for first responders it could be life threatening.

[pcradio]

43 minutes ago, Lscott said:

The commercial digital radios have better frequency stability spec’s ... I wouldn’t be surprised that the cheap Chinese digital radios have a tendency to experience drop outs due to the above ... For amateur use the dropouts aren’t critical. However for first responders it could be life threatening.

Good points. That's why an XPR-4550 (VXD-7200) for GMRS and new Yaesu models get recommended. A crummy UV-5G for GMRS is hardly a good thing.

[WRKC935]

I do love how GMRS operators seem to argue the rules, where the hams flip the hell out if someone even comes close to bending one pertaining to ham.  Well, outside of the whole cutting the MARS block so they can talk to the Po Po. 

And the continued argument of testing requirements.  Part 15 testing IS TESTING for compliance.  So if HAM radios have to meet PART 15, then they have to be tested.  I never said it was specifically for part 97.  Only that there was SOME form of required testing done by the FCC for MANUFACTURED radios for the ham bands. 

 

[Lscott]

4 hours ago, WRXE944 said:

When I built my Hallicrafters HT-40 kit 80 - 6 meter transmitter at 11 years old; I don't remember having to drag it down to the FCC for any Part 15 testing!

https://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/ht40.html

[tweiss3]

Part 97 only requires testing from manufacturers to ensure they don't produce 20,000 units that are junk and spewing spurious emissions (though, it still happens). There is no testing requirements for an amateur licensee to get testing, however, part 97 is very clear on spurious emissions: § 97.307 Emission standards

[Lscott]

12 minutes ago, tweiss3 said:

Part 97 only requires testing from manufacturers to ensure they don't produce 20,000 units that are junk and spewing spurious emissions (though, it still happens). There is no testing requirements for an amateur licensee to get testing, however, part 97 is very clear on spurious emissions: § 97.307 Emission standards

Also, it's outdated but any how, the equipment is blocked from receiving cell phone frequencies too. If I'm not mistaken I think some countries have finally caned that requirement for their local certification since cell phone service is now gone digital, and encrypted I think too.

People should read what is in Part 15. Just about everything electronic has the sticker on it and/or is mentioned in the manual for the device. It has some interesting statements about RF interference susceptibility. The next time the neighbor complains his yard lights flipping on evey time you key up your radio is sort of out of luck.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

[...] cell phone frequencies [...] finally caned that requirement [...]

since cell phone service is now gone digital, and encrypted

Who ever said that de-regulation takes too much time ?!? 

In three to four short decades, they caught up with reality 

[WRKC935]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:59 AM, WRXE944 said:

When I built my Hallicrafters HT-40 kit 80 - 6 meter transmitter at 11 years old; I don't remember having to drag it down to the FCC for any Part 15 testing!

Yeah, but YOU built it, not Hallicrafters.  And I bet that they needed to send completed units to the FCC to test them before they could sell the kits.  I don't know that for certain, but it could have been. 

[pcradio]

Here is a conversation I just had with ChatGPT about the UV-5R, and dual use radios. As we all know, the UV-5R is identical with the UV-5G. ChatGPT also knows this, and knows about the GMRS version of the UV-5R and has an interesting take on what the FCC actually allows.

I was asking about using GMRS, HAM, and so on and what radio could be used with what service. Here are snippets from the conversation (ChatGPT it is quite verbose).

 

------------------------------------------

Why then is the Baofeng UV-5R radio certified for both HAM and GMRS radio services?
 

While the Baofeng UV-5R is certified for Part 90 use, it does not have separate certification specifically for GMRS. The FCC requires GMRS radios to meet certain technical requirements and be certified specifically for GMRS use. GMRS radios that are properly certified will display a GMRS certification logo or label on the radio.

However, it's worth noting that the FCC allows dual-use radios, like the Baofeng UV-5R, to be used for both HAM and GMRS services under certain conditions. If an operator holds valid licenses for both HAM and GMRS, they can use a dual-use radio like the UV-5R on the appropriate frequencies for each service. In such cases, the operator must ensure compliance with the specific operating rules and power limitations for each service.

 

 

I have a license for both HAM and GMRS frequencies. So, its good to hear I can use one radio, the UV-5R, for both services. Its hard to carry two different radios.

 

If you hold valid licenses for both HAM and GMRS frequencies, you have the authorization to use a dual-use radio like the Baofeng UV-5R for both services. Having a single radio that can operate on both HAM and GMRS frequencies can certainly be convenient, as it eliminates the need to carry multiple radios.

Just make sure to adhere to the specific operating rules, power limits, and frequency allocations for each service. Familiarize yourself with the regulations for both HAM and GMRS services to ensure that you operate within the authorized parameters. This includes using the UV-5R on the appropriate frequencies for each service and observing any other relevant requirements.

It's great to hear that the information has been helpful to you. If you have any further questions, feel free to ask!

------------------------------------------

 

There you go folks. A super computer has answered our questions about gray areas in the confusing and contorted FCC rule arena. This is why no one ever has been fined or penalized for using a UV-5R for both GMRS and HAM bands. How long has this radio been out? A decade? Makes me wonder, is the gem here that the radio needs to be a Part 90 device? Is this also why so many GMRS repeater admins are using the Motorola XPR series for their personal radios?

 

 

[SteveShannon]

Congratulations, proof that if you ask enough different sources you’ll find one that reinforces your belief. 

[pcradio]

9 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Congratulations, proof that if you ask enough different sources you’ll find one that reinforces your belief. 

I think its fair to verify why things are the way they are. Shouldn't we be helping each other? When something doesn't make sense, asking questions is good, no?

[SteveShannon]

7 minutes ago, pcradio said:

I think its fair to verify why things are the way they are. Shouldn't we be helping each other? When something doesn't make sense, asking questions is good, no?

Yes to all three questions. 

[gortex2]

We have discussed this for weeks. The radio is not certified for both. Regardless  what your google chat tells you. Why is it so hard for you to grasp the rules and why they are there ? Just do what everyone else does and go back to talking on the radio. Whether its true or false your going to do what you want. No one here is going to tell you the rules are wrong and should be changed. They are the rules. Regardless if you follow them or not.

 

[Lscott]

3 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

We have discussed this for weeks. The radio is not certified for both. Regardless  what your google chat tells you. Why is it so hard for you to grasp the rules and why they are there ? Just do what everyone else does and go back to talking on the radio. Whether its true or false your going to do what you want. No one here is going to tell you the rules are wrong and should be changed. They are the rules. Regardless if you follow them or not.

 

They're just option shopping. Looking for someone to validate what they know is wrong so they don't feel so guilty. Same thing when your kids say everyone else is doing it, until you remind them strongly they're not or else.

[SteveShannon]

@pcradio

I believe that a high quality part 90 radio can be used for GMRS without causing any problems as long as it’s by someone who knows and follows the regulations regarding power, bandwidth, frequencies, etc. I’ve heard of (but I don’t have a copy) a letter from the FCC stating something similar.

Same for ham radio. A part 90 radio may be used. That’s truly acceptable. 

Many people operate with type 90 radios, tuned for both amateur and personal radio service frequencies. They do so mostly discreetly.
 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, pcradio said:

Here is a conversation I just had with ChatGPT ...

 

Please remember that the bot is basically a web-search on steroids packaged in a conversational style.

The bot is not a lawyer and does not "understand" the issue at hand - it looks at a question and finds answers based on web-content. 

While I agree that this is impressive (and I am using the bot - so does my wife in her classroom very successfully) the result of the "conversation" is a reflection of the internet's content - not a deep dive into a law library!

It might very well be that the bot "looked" at this thread to "learn" about the topic and saw pcradio's answers as well as all the other answers and concluded that pcradio's arguments carry weight hence replying in the way it did. At this point, the leading questions might have been influencing the answers ...

 

[WRUU653]

Reading this thread reminds me of this

Just substitute FCC for Phone Cops

[gortex2]

APX8000 can be had in multiband as a Part 90 subscriber.

VP8000 can be had in multiband as a Part 90 subscriber.

XL-200 can be  had in multiband as a Part 90 subscriber.

Many options. With that said you wouldn't spend the funds on the accessories let alone the radio if it was available. Many in the industry use these radios on GMRS and amateur along with LMR systems.

You want an all around radio you pay to play. The CCR world is not going to go thru certifications and testing to put out radios like these when they sell them for $25.00. A true quality radio cost is in the certifications, reliability, engineering, and manufacturing cost associated with a radio. 

[Lscott]

2 hours ago, Sshannon said:

I believe that a high quality part 90 radio can be used for GMRS without causing any problems as long as it’s by someone who knows and follows the regulations regarding power, bandwidth, frequencies, etc.

I've fat fingered entries when building a code plug for a radio. Later testing it and noticed it wasn't working. Reloading the code plug in the programming software  that's when I spotted the mistake. Who knows who got hammered when I was testing the radio out transmitting on the wrong frequency. I understand the above and still screwed up because I didn't double and triple check the entries.

This is why, at least for GMRS, the radio needs to be certified, fixed frequencies, because it's easy to mess up. The more programmable it is the more potential for mistakes. When programming Part 90 radios there is a LOT of room for mistakes, even by people who know what they are doing.