"Grid Down" Pony Express

[WRTL946]

A thought about the next "Grid Down" Net. 

Could/would we be able to get a message from New York, all the way to California? 

Something like a radio version of the Pony Express.

Net Control Operator/NCO on "Repeater A" transmits a message.

NCO on "Repeater B" receives message, and Re-transmits message. 

NCO on "Repeater C" receives message......

The message should be something fun like, "THE BRITISH ARE COMING, THE BRITISH ARE COMING!!!!"

Thoughts. Questions? Concerns. 

[WRWE456]

What's powering the repeaters during this grid down event?

[WRTL946]

All Repeaters should be operating on a battery backup. 

[WRTL946]

By "Grid Down" we typically mean " no Internet link". It is my understanding that most, if not all, Repeaters have a battery backup system. I could be wrong. 

[OffRoaderX]

it would seem that HF maybe with one or two relay-people or repeaters would be a better, more reliable solution because you will generally get much greater range with HF than with GMRS.  and good luck getting any GMRS signals over the rockies and all other mountain ranges between New York and California.

[WRTL946]

I'm thinking of it like a relay system. Maybe not getting all the way over the mountains, but just to see how far and fast we can get a message it there. It's something for people to think about. 

A Radio Relay System, outside of HAM, is something I would like to see happen. 

Something that all the people with FRS only radios can hear. How many households in the country have those bubblepack radios. With FRS radios most likely the number 1 version of 2-way radio available to people, I try to think of them considering we share frequencies. Not to mention, they are our countrymen. Paul Revere didn't just announce that the British were coming to certain people, he's raised the alarm to all that could hear. 

[Lscott]

19 minutes ago, WRTL946 said:

Could/would we be able to get a message from New York, all the way to California?

Well the national organization that represents Hams, ARRL, has its roots in just such an activity. ARRL stands for Amateur Radio Relay League. In the very early days of spark transmitting messages were passed from station to station cross country. That was just about the only way to communicate long distances in those days.
 

Even today there are emergency Net practice sessions on the VHF/UHF Ham bands, and on some HF ones, where one of the activities is traffic passing of messages.

[SteveShannon]

This is definitely an HF type of task. In fact, that’s where the word Relay came from in the ARRL (American Radio Relay League). There are relay nets that practice daily. The National Traffic System is one:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Traffic_System

[WRTL946]

I understand everyone saying AREL is the way to go, but I'm more concerned with getting as many people a message as possible. In the event of national, nation wide emergencies. With no Internet or cell service or power of any kind, people that aren't radio hobbyists will grab their FRS radios just looking for some info. I'm thinking of those people, because they are our countrymen.  

[SteveShannon]

Rely on ham radio for the distance comms and work to establish a “last 10 miles” delivery. It simply doesn’t make sense to use FRS for the distance work. 

[WRTL946]

I'm not saying to use FRS for any distance stuff, obviously. We transmit on frequencies that they can hear, that's the point, them HEARING the message. 

I made my first GMRS contact with an FRS radio, trying to talk with people talking on a repeater. I heard them, called out, one of them happened to be about 1 mile away, and heard me on the open frequency. Contact made, message received. 

[WRTL946]

I'm also thinking Net Control would/could re-transmit on other frequencies as well. MURS, Marine, Business band......

Anything they can legally transmit on. 

 

[gortex2]

Quote

8 hours ago, WRTL946 said:

By "Grid Down" we typically mean " no Internet link". It is my understanding that most, if not all, Repeaters have a battery backup system. I could be wrong. 

I would venture to say 3/4 of the GMRS repeaters and probably same for HAM repeaters do not have battery backup. I know of a few guys who run them on DC plants and have emergency backup but they are far and few between. The county I lived in NY had 0 Ham repeaters that had battery backup. Only one in 3 counties were in a EMCOM building with Generator backup. The main RACES/ARES repeater was in a shed with neither. I can also say only one of my repeaters are in a generator equipped shelter. 

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, gortex2 said:

I would venture to say 3/4 of the GMRS repeaters and probably same for HAM repeaters do not have battery backup. I know of a few guys who run them on DC plants and have emergency backup but they are far and few between. The county I lived in NY had 0 Ham repeaters that had battery backup. Only one in 3 counties were in a EMCOM building with Generator backup. The main RACES/ARES repeater was in a shed with neither. I can also say only one of my repeaters are in a generator equipped shelter. 

Backup power and type might be interesting data to add to repeater listings. 

[WRTL946]

Well, it was worth thinking about. It would be cool to try something like it. 

[gortex2]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

Backup power and type might be interesting data to add to repeater listings. 

Agree. In my field of work I see many ham and other repeaters and crynge with what I see at sites. Sadly this is also why many get tossed from sites. A properly instaleld and engineered system for any service (HAM, GMRS, Public Safety, LMR) will run for years with little to no issues if installed and maintened properly. Even with linking there are really good setups and others that are just a hotspot laying on the repeater in a poor cell coverage area. I think back 20 years ago you saw good thought out installs. Now its just throw it in to say its there. 

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WRTL946 said:

Well, it was with thinking about. It would be cool to try something like it. 

It still is.  

In an actual widespread emergency people will be desperate for information. My generation was alway reminded to keep an AM radio with extra batteries available.  Of course AM radio worked well because it can receive signals across literally thousands of miles at night, so even if only a few stations survived a person might hear something. The only “grid” was our public utilities (electricity, gas, sewer, and water).

Now, people are more likely to listen to FM, satellite radio, or internet radio.  Cell phone service is nearly ubiquitous and getting better. The “grid” has expanded to encompass all of the above. People have been conditioned to expect two way voice, video, and data communications wherever they go, but most wouldn’t have a clue what to do if the grid now goes down.

So don’t give up on the idea of coordinating last mile communications and don’t get discouraged when people ask pointed questions or make critical comments.  Get involved with local emcomm groups.  This is what they do and they almost always need people who are motivated.

[UncleYoda]

4 hours ago, WRTL946 said:

Well, it was with thinking about. It would be cool to try something like it. 

I've been trying for over a decade to do that mostly with 2m HAM, but with more focus on statewide than national.  The only reason it won't work is the attitude of the HAMs.  I hate the answer that HF is necessary; it is only if people are to stubborn to cooperate on another approach.  HF is faster for long distance but there's a possibility that conditions won't be good for propagation.  We should be practicing using all the options available. 

What I plan on doing with GMRS is a neighborhood radio watch.  My GMRS base station can reach those FRS users around me who don't have HAM or GMRS.  I can give them info even if they can't talk back, arrange meetings, call for reinforcements, etc.

2 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Get involved with local emcomm groups.  This is what they do ...

What most of them do is volunteer to work with agencies.  They don't seem to want to work with individuals.  So after 10 years in ARES, I quit and I'm following my own plan.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, WRTL946 said:

Well, it was with thinking about. It would be cool to try something like it. 

Absolutely cool !!!

The idea has some "80s retro -truckers on CB movie vibe."

However, despite the "Stranger Things" or "Die Hard 4" flair of the idea, I share @Sshannon's sentiment: This will take a lot of work to build momentum and knowledge (maybe even skills).

As a baseline for the challenge, I like to look at ham field days or special events like 'route 66 on the air'. Despite of their high coolness and the fact that they are tailored to hams (those who presumably have the means to partake) these events are moderately successful.

reaching the bubble pack consumers and coordinating them to participate in a nationwide event might just be the challenge you were looking for - but - a challenge it will be!

The good news: You are at the right place to maybe find some "co-cospirators" 

 

[DominoDog]

There are already repeaters linked up for emergencies. The system in my state is found at mtears.org

I would be surprised if other states/countries/planets don't have something similar in place.

Someone else suggested it and I agree; ham radio would be the main system used for getting information spread across a region, but it would fall to GMRS and FRS and similar services for last-mile dissemination of info.

[WRYZ926]

On 1/1/2024 at 1:21 PM, DominoDog said:

Someone else suggested it and I agree; ham radio would be the main system used for getting information spread across a region, but it would fall to GMRS and FRS and similar services for last-mile dissemination of info.

That was one of the arguments we used when talking our club into adding a GMRS repeater to the tower where our 2m and 70cm repeaters are. We have a backup generator on site and are adding a battery backup system too. We are still in the testing phase with the GMRS repeater but we are averaging 20-25 mile radius.  Which is not bad considering the forested rolling hills of central Missouri.

The other main selling point we used when pitching the idea was that we could always use another tool in the tool box for emergencies. And we will be adding a GMRS radio to our emergency coms trailer. So far we have all of the HF, VHF, and UHF bands covered in the trailer.

No repeater will be online in an emergency without some type of backup power supply. We will be able to run up to 2 days on the new battery backup system plus we will be keeping the generator in place.

[WRZP437]

I'd even think now a solar backup systems could be fairly feasible for some repeaters given some battery reserves, though there's probably a short life on those in a prolonged power outage situation.

[DominoDog]

I've gone almost completely solar for my little projects. So it has been a shoe-in for getting involved in radio stuff. Just a natural fit. Solar panels are going down in price. I saw a 100w 10 bus bar panel on sale for $55 on black friday. I have 300w of solar on my work van and another 300 watts of portable solar that can go anywhere I need it.

I've also been nerding out on youtube looking at microhydro setups. I was watching one guy's video who has a steady 600 watts of power coming in from the little creek running through his land.

Batteries are still expensive, though not prohibitively so. I was looking at a self-heating 100Ah/12v LiFePo4 battery for $340 plus tax, etc. Self-heating so it could keep itself above freezing temps. I bet I could wire up enough solar to keep it going.

[WRZK593]

On 12/31/2023 at 4:47 PM, WRTL946 said:

A thought about the next "Grid Down" Net. 

Could/would we be able to get a message from New York, all the way to California? 

Something like a radio version of the Pony Express.

Net Control Operator/NCO on "Repeater A" transmits a message.

NCO on "Repeater B" receives message, and Re-transmits message. 

NCO on "Repeater C" receives message......

The message should be something fun like, "THE BRITISH ARE COMING, THE BRITISH ARE COMING!!!!"

Thoughts. Questions? Concerns. 

I want to contribute to this thread, but I have nothing. No experience. No longevity. And no reason to speak about anything I know nothing of.

HOWEVER, There ARE GMRS/HAM operators here in Hawaii that could contribute. We're in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and are important in relay/global communications. 

I personally KNOW NOTHING. BUT... I would like to challenge all of the HAMS in Hawaii to expand their networks and show more interest in GMRS

[WRYZ926]

3 hours ago, WRZP437 said:

I'd even think now a solar backup systems could be fairly feasible for some repeaters given some battery reserves, though there's probably a short life on those in a prolonged power outage situation.

One problem with solar panels at tower sites is that you have to keep them far enough away from the tower so that ice won't fall and break the solar panels. Now if you live in an area that stays above freezing and/or low winter precipitation then solar panels close to a tower is fine.

We have a shed at the tower site for all of our repeaters and we had to build a cage above it to keep ice from falling off the tower and caving the roof in.