Kerchunkkkkkkk

[WSAV277]

As I got roasted on my first post, wouldn’t be tradition if a noob didn’t end up that way but here is another der de der question. I finally got the kerchunk I was looking for from a repeater in my area but ONLY after I turned off the receiving tone. Can you please tell me why you only get the kerchunk with receiving tone off and not with it on? Haven’t had a chance to do a physical test yet with my pair of radios but with no kerchunk with them both on, does it still communicate without hearing the repeater tail squelch? And yes, I went through the settings on my radios (uv5g plus) and made sure that they were not programmed to tune the squelch out after transmission so both should be able to hear the kerchunk but they don’t unless the rx tone is off. Thanks!

[back4more70]

Perhaps it was the wrong receiving tone?

[Lscott]

25 minutes ago, WSAV277 said:

Can you please tell me why you only get the kerchunk with receiving tone off and not with it on?

Two possibilities.

1. You are using the wrong tone.

2. The repeater doesn't use a tone on the output. In that case no tone so your radio will never un-mute the audio.

I almost NEVER use receive tones on my radios unless I need to REALLY block some interference from another repeater or simplex station. I just don't get the desire where people feel the need to use a receive tone when it's almost never required on their radio. It ends up leading to unnecessary problems like the above.

[Sshannon]

15 minutes ago, quarterwave said:

There is hang time, which is the time after proper carrier AND PL is lost, that the transmitter remains on air. It is used to keep the carrier up so another person can respond without any re-keying time. I set mine to 6 seconds. In my area alot of Ham repeaters have a long hang time. It's ok to not use it at all, but with a 100% duty cycle repeater, I'd rather have it.

I would argue that it doesn’t allow another person to quickly respond.  In fact anybody who has “busy channel lockout” set cannot transmit during that very long six seconds.  

It does have value in preventing the repeater from quickly cycling between transmit and receive for a signal that’s going in and out.

 

[Sshannon]

4 minutes ago, quarterwave said:

As long as that person is using same PL. BCL prevents transmission when a different PL is being received than the one you are transmitting (Different group on a repeater). Used alot on old community repeaters. 

 

Except that’s not how it’s implemented everywhere. Our repeater has a tone of 100 Hz on transmit and receive. My radio is set the same.  As long as my radio is receiving from the repeater if I try to transmit I get a “Channel Busy” notice on the display and my radio will not transmit. Which is usually fine because it keeps me from transmitting over someone who was on first. But to have to wait six seconds after they stop transmitting is excessive. 

[WSAV277]

So why would they list the rx and tx tone of it isn’t necessary? This is one of two repeaters in my area and they are on different frequencies. I also had to add the 5MHz 

[WRXP381]

Error 

[OffRoaderX]

9 minutes ago, WRXP381 said:

just because you can  kerchunk the repeater does not mean it can hear you.  

If the repeater cant hear you then how can you kerchunk it?

[marcspaz]

Along with either the wrong RX tone or the repeater not transmitting a tone, the repeater could be programed to not transmit a squelch tail.  Meaning, when you stop transmitting the repeater stops transmitting immediately or it stops transmitting the RX tone you need the instant it stops receiving your single, and then drops the transmit a fraction of a second after.   That is very common in the DC metro area.

[WRXP381]

48 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

 

[OffRoaderX]

13 minutes ago, WRXP381 said:

I ment just because you can kerchunk the repeater and open squelch does not mean you can talk to it and be received well.  

Then you probably should have said that, especially since the OP is a self-confessed n00b and prone to confuckulation and at a very impressionable stage in his radio career.

[WRQL370]

On 2/23/2024 at 7:00 PM, marcspaz said:

the repeater could be programed to not transmit a squelch tail.

Negative, What you are referring to is called the hang time.  That is the amount of time the transmit carrier is present after the station stops receiving an input signal.  This is done to keep the transmitter from constantly keying and un-keying from a loss of marginal received signal

There are options in higher grade repeaters to setup timing for reverse burst, or to stop the PL before the carrier drops to eliminate "squelch tail".

[gortex2]

I have my hang time set to 0 on all my repeaters except 1. The 1 repeater is set for 2 seconds hang time but no PL on the tail. Hopefully this year I can swap that repeater out also so none of them have any hang time. No need for it. In the old days with tubes you wanted the repeater to stay on the air in between transmissions. No need for it any longer. For SAR all my repeaters have 2 second hang time but no PL also. 

 

[WRQL370]

33 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

I have my hang time set to 0 on all my repeaters except 1. The 1 repeater is set for 2 seconds hang time but no PL on the tail. Hopefully this year I can swap that repeater out also so none of them have any hang time. No need for it. In the old days with tubes you wanted the repeater to stay on the air in between transmissions. No need for it any longer. For SAR all my repeaters have 2 second hang time but no PL also. 

 

The only problem with no hang time is the kerchunking morons tend to keep doing it expecting to hear the tail. eventually they give up though.

 

[gortex2]

Maybe. My repeaters are closed. I originally did it to try to eliminate those users as most are using a CCR. While some may still key it normally doesn't open my base and doesn't bother me as much as hearing the hang with no traffic. 

[marcspaz]

3 hours ago, WRQL370 said:

Negative, What you are referring to is called the hang time.  That is the amount of time the transmit carrier is present after the station stops receiving an input signal.  This is done to keep the transmitter from constantly keying and un-keying from a loss of marginal received signal

There are options in higher grade repeaters to setup timing for reverse burst, or to stop the PL before the carrier drops to eliminate "squelch tail".

 

Nope, I'm definitely talking about squelch tail and STE. You are referring to something different. But, what you are referring to could also contribute to a user not hearing the repeater when they release their key.

[WRQL370]

2 hours ago, marcspaz said:

 

Nope, I'm definitely talking about squelch tail and STE. You are referring to something different. But, what you are referring to could also contribute to a user not hearing the repeater when they release their key.

I'm looking through codeplugs for 4 of my repeaters, and none of them have a setting for " squelch tail"

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, WRQL370 said:

I'm looking through codeplugs for 4 of my repeaters, and none of them have a setting for " squelch tail"

 

Not sure what to tell you. On most of the gear I have used, it's programmed on the receiver side and it's referred to as Squelch Tail Elimination, STE or Reverse Burst.

[WRQL370]

Ok, that’s in the subscriber radios , and wouldn’t be on the receive of a repeater, it would be a setting on the transmit. 
 

But even with that set , it only drops the PL or muting the receiver of the subscriber radio, if programmed to CTCSS/DPL  before the carrier drops to eliminate the squelch tail noise. But unless the signal is full quieting, will still exhibit noise.

When a repeater is programmed to not have a hang time, it’s exactly the same on the subscriber radio transmitting like simplex. When you un-key, that’s it, there is no signal coming back immediately  

 

 

 

[Sshannon]

8 hours ago, WRQL370 said:

I'm looking through codeplugs for 4 of my repeaters, and none of them have a setting for " squelch tail"

[gortex2]

Not sure what kind of radio you showed Steve, but here are repeater settings for my stuff - 

GR1225 Calls it Hang Time

MTR2000 Calls it Drop out Delay

Icom Calls it Hang Time

I dont have my Quantar or GTR8000 software on my home PC so can't show those. 

 

 

 

 

[marcspaz]

 

My last repeater (Yaesu DR-2X, same one Steve showed) had a STE programmable value on it.  There are no references to Hang Time nor Reverse Burst in the owners manual... but I know that it had a Hang Time function and a Reverse Burst function, too.  I'm at work right now, so I don't have a lot of time, but I can see if there is anything in any of the advanced manuals later tonight.

[quarterwave]

19 hours ago, WRQL370 said:

Negative, What you are referring to is called the hang time.  That is the amount of time the transmit carrier is present after the station stops receiving an input signal.  This is done to keep the transmitter from constantly keying and un-keying from a loss of marginal received signal

There are options in higher grade repeaters to setup timing for reverse burst, or to stop the PL before the carrier drops to eliminate "squelch tail".

I run a MTR2000 with a Zetron. 

There is hang time, which is the time after proper carrier AND PL is lost, that the transmitter remains on air. It is used to keep the carrier up so another person can respond without any re-keying time. I set mine to 6 seconds. In my area alot of Ham repeaters have a long hang time. It's ok to not use it at all, but with a 100% duty cycle repeater, I'd rather have it.

Then...there is tone in tail. Your carrier in hang time can transmit the PL or not. You can drop the PL and the carrier will stay up for the duration, but receiving radios (programmed with the output tone) will close their squelch. 

I also use the Zetron input carrier beep, which is a medium "beep" when a carrier drops. This helps people tell if a unit is on the fringe of coverage and their actual signal is weak or just their audio. It helps the non radio people learn repeater-ese. 

[quarterwave]

44 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

I would argue that it doesn’t allow another person to quickly respond.  In fact anybody who has “busy channel lockout” set cannot transmit during that very long six seconds.  

It does have value in preventing the repeater from quickly cycling between transmit and receive for a signal that’s going in and out.

 

As long as that person is using same PL. BCL prevents transmission when a different PL is being received than the one you are transmitting (Different group on a repeater). Used alot on old community repeaters. 

 

[WRQL370]

23 hours ago, Sshannon said:

 My repeaters are XPR’s on my commercial pairs and my GMRS repeaters are Tait TB8100’s.  
I also have kenwood TKR’s and NXR’s on the stock pile and  the difference is that all the commercial gear call it hang time.