Keeping tones private

[VETCOMMS]

Question the the repeater experts.   How do I keep people from scanning my personal repeater tones and gaining access?   I do not own one yet but am looking at either a gr1225 or vxr=7000 but if other repeaters are more secure I'd welcome experienced suggestions. 

[SteveShannon]

3 minutes ago, TechnoHam633 said:

That's True and I guess go's along with the adage, Loose lips sink ships. I was just thinking that the "simpler minds" might not figure that tactic out and help keep Repeater Security. Someone mentioned Split tones which is a good idea too.

You definitely want split tones if you’re trying to secure your tone, otherwise your repeater is transmitting the code to everyone who listens. 

[Jaay]

1 minute ago, Sshannon said:

You definitely want split tones if you’re trying to secure your tone, otherwise your repeater is transmitting the code to everyone who listens. 

True, but it only takes One person to be close to you who scanning for tones when you transmit on your Input to your machine, then they only need the Output tone.  Non standard tones Cant be scanned, because they don't fall in the list of available subtones available.

[SteveShannon]

6 minutes ago, TechnoHam633 said:

True, but it only takes One person to be close to you who scanning for tones when you transmit on your Input to your machine,

See 1.

then they only need the Output tone. 

See 2.

Non standard tones Cant be scanned, because they don't fall in the list of available subtones available.

See 3.

1. Agreed, but that’s statistically less likely and thus not as easy as scanning for the output tone.

2. They truly never need the output tone. They only need the input tone. 
 

3. I bet the inexpensive Baofeng UV5R can scan for every tone, standard or not.  It’s the expensive radios that are less capable of using non-standard tones. 
 

[Jaay]

2 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

1. Agreed, but that’s statistically less likely and thus not as easy as scanning for the output tone.

2. They truly never need the output tone. They only need the input tone. 
 

3. I bet the inexpensive Baofeng UV5R can scan for every tone, standard or not.  It’s the expensive radios that are less capable of using non-standard tones. 
 

I have a old tk833 trunked talkie, programmed for conventional on a tone of 88.8, and beofeng's Cant find the tone on scan. the China radios can only scan for tones in their firmware, and Odd tones won't show up.

[Jaay]

Just now, TechnoHam633 said:

I have a old tk833 trunked talkie, programmed for conventional on a tone of 88.8, and beofeng's Cant find the tone on scan. the China radios can only scan for tones in their firmware, and Odd tones won't show up.

TK 353 I meant. Too many radios ...Grrrr.

[SteveShannon]

26 minutes ago, TechnoHam633 said:

I have a old tk833 trunked talkie, programmed for conventional on a tone of 88.8, and beofeng's Cant find the tone on scan. the China radios can only scan for tones in their firmware, and Odd tones won't show up.

Is it possible that you mean 88.5 Hz instead of 88.8 Hz?

[VETCOMMS]

I put the poop in party pooper so no backyard BBQs here.   Just thinking about having control of the equipment if I need it,  which the wifi switch helps with. 

Good discussion,  thanks for everyone's input. 

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, TechnoHam633 said:

Non standard tones Cant be scanned, because they don't fall in the list of available subtones available.

 

This is only true if you are trying to use a scan feature built into a radio. If someone is using a standalone decoder or if their radio has a decoder, they can decode any custom tones if they are close enough to a user or if those custom tones are used on the output.  Radios as little as $35 have decoders in them and you can buy a standalone decoder for just a few $$$.

[gortex2]

3 hours ago, Lscott said:

I believe that’s patented Motorola technology. In that case you’re limited to Motorola radios. I guess if it’s just for your family it’s likely no big deal. You can program the radios for them.

Correct. I have MSI radios in every vehicle I own as well as all our SAR folks and friends all run Motorola. I have Midlands in my parents Jeep and my Jeeps for simplicity. Thats why I dont have RAS enabled at this time. But its not been an issue for me. If it does I'll swap my parents Midland out for XTL's. They are really the only non MSI radio using the repeaters as I use my APX when I'm on repeaters. All the rest of us use MSI radios. 

[Lscott]

3 hours ago, TechnoHam633 said:

Split tones which is a good idea too.

That’s sort of useless too. The only tone that matters is the one for transmit. Myself I never use a tone on receive. All my commercial radios can be programmed that way. So, in that case I couldn’t care less what tone was used on the output.

[Jaay]

4 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Is it possible that you mean 88.5 Hz instead of 88.8 Hz?

No, I picked 88.8 on my TK805 and my 353, because they are Non standard tones I can set in both of those radios, that the china mart radios can"t find the tones for, as a way to weed out interference. With Encode and decode selected, it's pretty much private comms.

[Jaay]

3 hours ago, marcspaz said:

 

This is only true if you are trying to use a scan feature built into a radio. If someone is using a standalone decoder or if their radio has a decoder, they can decode any custom tones if they are close enough to a user or if those custom tones are used on the output.  Radios as little as $35 have decoders in them and you can buy a standalone decoder for just a few $$$.

True, but it seems like most people who are rude and hell bent on trolling your coms, isn't going to know about that method. At least it's worked so far.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, TechnoHam633 said:

No, I picked 88.8 on my TK805 and my 353, because they are Non standard tones I can set in both of those radios, that the china mart radios can"t find the tones for, as a way to weed out interference. With Encode and decode selected, it's pretty much private comms.

That also limits the folks who use your repeater to very few radios I would imagine. 

[nokones]

If you want to keep your family and friends only repeater private, don't list it on mygmrs.com. Also, I would split the tones and use CTCSS on the downlink/repeater output side and an Inverted DPL/DCS code on the uplink/repeater input side. 

[WRXB215]

22 minutes ago, nokones said:

If you want to keep your family and friends only repeater private, don't list it on mygmrs.com. Also, I would split the tones and use CTCSS on the downlink/repeater output side and an Inverted DPL/DCS code on the uplink/repeater input side. 

And change the tones from time to time.

[wrci350]

On 4/17/2024 at 6:15 PM, TechnoHam633 said:

With Encode and decode selected, it's pretty much private comms.

If by "private" you mean, "no one else can use the repeater" (or at least "someone needs the non-standard tone to use the repeater"), sure.

If by "private" you actually mean PRIVATE, like no one else can hear you, that's absolutely not the case.  Anyone listening to the repeater with squelch tones turned off can hear everything.

But you knew that, right?

Keep in mind that someone doesn't need your secret tone to jam your repeater, either.

[VETCOMMS]

23 minutes ago, wrci350 said:

If by "private" you mean, "no one else can use the repeater" (or at least "someone needs the non-standard tone to use the repeater"), sure.

If by "private" you actually mean PRIVATE, like no one else can hear you, that's absolutely not the case.  Anyone listening to the repeater with squelch tones turned off can hear everything.

But you knew that, right?

Keep in mind that someone doesn't need your secret tone to jam your repeater, either.

See that's where my lack of experience shows.   I thought they'd need the tones to key up the repeater & jam it.  I guess that's where the wifi switch can kill the repeater if someone tries jamming it.

Maybe I'm expecting the worse out of people but still like to know how to counteract these things if they happen. 

Thx for all the shared experience here. 

[OffRoaderX]

11 minutes ago, WRTZ750 said:

I thought they'd need the tones to key up the repeater & jam it

They need the tones to key up the repeater but they do not need to key up the repeater to jam it.

[SteveShannon]

41 minutes ago, WRTZ750 said:

See that's where my lack of experience shows.   I thought they'd need the tones to key up the repeater & jam it.  I guess that's where the wifi switch can kill the repeater if someone tries jamming it.

Maybe I'm expecting the worse out of people but still like to know how to counteract these things if they happen. 

Thx for all the shared experience here. 

What’s the difference whether the repeater is powered off or jammed?  The end result is exactly the same.
 

The only way to prevent it is to not have a repeater. 

[WRUU653]

2 hours ago, Sshannon said:

What’s the difference whether the repeater is powered off or jammed?  The end result is exactly the same.
 

The only way to prevent it is to not have a repeater. 

This ^^^ 

[WRUU653]

@WRTZ750 I understand the initial question was about keeping tones private. My question is have you already assessed that it needs to be where you are? What I mean is larger city areas seem to be locations that have more of the bad element however where I am the repeaters don’t really get used that much. Most are open and the owners are glad that people make use of them when they do. Even some that require request seem to use common travel tones and I think they just want to know who’s using them. Of course your mileage may vary depending on location and people.

[Jaay]

13 hours ago, nokones said:

If you want to keep your family and friends only repeater private, don't list it on mygmrs.com. Also, I would split the tones and use CTCSS on the downlink/repeater output side and an Inverted DPL/DCS code on the uplink/repeater input side. 

Good point ! I didn't think about inverting the dcs tones.

[VETCOMMS]

All good points.   The repeater would be at a location away from my home so if there's a problem I'd need to drive there.   All I can do is try it and see how it goes.