FRS/GMRS Frequencies and programming requirements

[WSDA306]

Few observations/questions about programming my GMRS and FRS radios.

A. May be a dumb question but, why do all the radio manufacturers put freq 462.5500  as channel 15 since its a lower freq than 462.5625 (channel 1).  Seems like it should be channel 1,  Same for every channel after that freq 16-22.

B. In programming my radios, I have 4 different brands of FRS (16 channel, essentially the same radio, Zastone X6, Retevis R22, Baofang T20) + TidRadio M11 22ch.  And also my TD-H3 which is GMRS.  The reason, these china radios all come preprogrammed with the wrong frequencies, and I want them all to be able to talk to each other.  I have programmed them all and they all now talk to each other but Im not sure exactly what this NFM/FM is.  I put all of the FRS radios as NFM like this chart shows, and my GMRS as either FM or NFM.

C. Also looking at this chart, it seems the FCC decided not to give GMRS it's own frequency space, essentially it's the same as FRS, so the only thing you get by purchasing a GMRS license is the ability to broadcast in higher power and connect to a repeater?  

D. The FCC page says that the authorized bandwidth for GMRS is either 12.5 or 20Khz.  However when I read in the data for my GMRS radio into Chirp, there is no setting for the bandwidth.  Is this set automatically?

[WRXR255]

15 - 22 are the GMRS starting point of the allocated repeater channels.  They were allowed to be added to FRS simpex use after the original FRS channels 1 - 14. So its why it starts low to high again.

[nokones]

4 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

Read the regs carefully.  Base stations are not included for the 467 repeater input freqs.

The radio transmitter/station at a fixed location that transmit on a 467 MHz Main Channel (I. e. 467.550 MHz - 467.725 MHz)  to a Repeater becomes a Control Station class of station during that operation.

The same control station will revert back to a Base Station Class of Station when that station communicate directly to a mobile station or other base stations at a fixed location on a 462 MHz Main and/or Interstitial Channels.

[WRUU653]

 

It’s not a base station… it’s a mobile. 

[FlatTop]

They are programmed with the right frequencies.  Just not in the order you'd like them to be.  I see this all the time in FRS radios. 

Example:  Midland Channel 11 might be Retrevis Channel 17 - but both are on the same freq. 

 

[COBrien]

"NFM" is narrowband FM, i.e., 12.5 kHz.

"FM" is wideband FM, i.e., 20 kHz.

[WSDA306]

1 hour ago, COBrien said:

"NFM" is narrowband FM, i.e., 12.5 kHz.

"FM" is wideband FM, i.e., 20 kHz.

Good to know.  I should have figured that out just looking at the chart, but makes sense.

[amaff]

1 hour ago, WSDA306 said:

Few observations/questions about programming my GMRS and FRS radios.

A. May be a dumb question but, why do all the radio manufacturers put freq 462.5500  as channel 15 since its a lower freq than 462.5625 (channel 1).  Seems like it should be channel 1,  Same for every channel after that freq 16-22.

Because the FCC decrees it as such.

1 hour ago, WSDA306 said:

B. In programming my radios, I have 4 different brands of FRS (16 channel, essentially the same radio, Zastone X6, Retevis R22, Baofang T20) + TidRadio M11 22ch.  And also my TD-H3 which is GMRS.  The reason, these china radios all come preprogrammed with the wrong frequencies

Wait...I thought "all the radio manufacturers" programmed them the same, per A above, and just in a weird order to your tastes? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I've never seen a handheld GMRS or FRS radio where channel 1 wasn't 462.5625 across the board, channel 2 wasn't 462.5875 across the board, etc...
It can get weird with some of the mobile radios that choose to omit 8-14 (where they can't transmit) and so channel 15 becomes 8, but the frequencies should all line up.

1 hour ago, WSDA306 said:

C. Also looking at this chart, it seems the FCC decided not to give GMRS it's own frequency space, essentially it's the same as FRS, so the only thing you get by purchasing a GMRS license is the ability to broadcast in higher power and connect to a repeater? 

Plus mobile radios, if you're into that sort of thing. And the handhelds can often be had in higher quality and with more bells and whistles than most FRS radios. But from some points of view that's a detriment.

1 hour ago, WSDA306 said:

D. The FCC page says that the authorized bandwidth for GMRS is either 12.5 or 20Khz.  However when I read in the data for my GMRS radio into Chirp, there is no setting for the bandwidth.  Is this set automatically?

As was stated above. FM = wide, NFM = narrow.

 

[dosw]

2 hours ago, WSDA306 said:

Few observations/questions about programming my GMRS and FRS radios.

A. May be a dumb question but, why do all the radio manufacturers put freq 462.5500  as channel 15 since its a lower freq than 462.5625 (channel 1).  Seems like it should be channel 1,  Same for every channel after that freq 16-22.

B. In programming my radios, I have 4 different brands of FRS (16 channel, essentially the same radio, Zastone X6, Retevis R22, Baofang T20) + TidRadio M11 22ch.  And also my TD-H3 which is GMRS.  The reason, these china radios all come preprogrammed with the wrong frequencies, and I want them all to be able to talk to each other.  I have programmed them all and they all now talk to each other but Im not sure exactly what this NFM/FM is.  I put all of the FRS radios as NFM like this chart shows, and my GMRS as either FM or NFM.

C. Also looking at this chart, it seems the FCC decided not to give GMRS it's own frequency space, essentially it's the same as FRS, so the only thing you get by purchasing a GMRS license is the ability to broadcast in higher power and connect to a repeater?  

D. The FCC page says that the authorized bandwidth for GMRS is either 12.5 or 20Khz.  However when I read in the data for my GMRS radio into Chirp, there is no setting for the bandwidth.  Is this set automatically?

• A: The FRS channels predated GMRS channel numbering. When the services combined on frequencies, the frequencies were layered in. Additionally, the 15-22 frequencies, and the repeater input frequencies are the "mains", while the 1-7 and 8-14 are the interstitials; they are intentionally lower power (5w or 0.5w depending on the channel) so as to have less potential for interfering with the mains.
• B: Every FRS and GMRS radio I've used (Motorola FRS radios, Midland GMRS handheld radios, Motorola combination radios from before the rule change, Baofeng GMRS radios, Midland mobile radios, and Retevis mobile radios) use the same channel numbering. The earlier FRS didn't have channels 15-22. But aside from that the numbering has remained unaltered. You'll have to demonstrate model numbers that shipped with incorrect channel numbers per frequency. Or did you alter them with CHIRP?
• C : Yes, GMRS and FRS use all the same frequencies, except that GMRS adds the repeater input frequencies, as well. What you get by purchasing a GMRS license:
  • A call sign.
  • The right to transmit on a GMRS radio
  • Repeater capability
  • 5w instead of 2w on channels 1-7
  • 50w instead of 2w on channels 15-22
  • 50w instead of no right to transmit at all on repeater inputs.
  • Right to use external antennas (FRS is built-in antenna only)
  • Right to use mobile GMRS radios (FRS is handheld only) on channels 1-7 and 15-22, and repeaters.
  • Right to use base station GMRS radios (FRS is handheld only) on channels 1-7, 15-22, and repeaters.
  • Full access to all of these capabilities for your entire family (the license is family oriented).
• D : The NFM (narrowband FM) setting in Chirp sets the radio to 12.5kHz or less. The FM setting (wideband FM) in Chirp sets the radio to 20kHz or less.

You will also notice from your chart that the channel spacing between 15, 1, 16, 2, 17, 3, 18, 4, 19, 5, 20, 6, 21, 7, 22 is only 12.5kHz. 15, 16, 17, and so on are all spaced 25kHz apart, but the interstitials are also spaced 25kHz apart, and sandwiched directly between the mains. This is why they're called interstitial frequencies, and why they are limited to lower power (5w for 1-7, 0.5w for 8-14); as mentioned earlier, to reduce interference with the mains.

[WSDA306]

2 hours ago, amaff said:

Because the FCC decrees it as such.

Wait...I thought "all the radio manufacturers" programmed them the same, per A above, and just in a weird order to your tastes? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I've never seen a handheld GMRS or FRS radio where channel 1 wasn't 462.5625 across the board, channel 2 wasn't 462.5875 across the board, etc...
It can get weird with some of the mobile radios that choose to omit 8-14 (where they can't transmit) and so channel 15 becomes 8, but the frequencies should all line up.

Plus mobile radios, if you're into that sort of thing. And the handhelds can often be had in higher quality and with more bells and whistles than most FRS radios. But from some points of view that's a detriment.

As was stated above. FM = wide, NFM = narrow.

 

I dont think so, until I bought my GMRS TD-H3 all of the radios I had purchased were from different sellers on Amazon, and my first walkie/talkie was the zastone X6 which was and still is a bit illegal because it transmits using 3 Watts, but the others are within the proper wattage, but they all including the Retevis had 16 channels but weird frequencies.  The TidRadio M11 had 22 channels and the frequencies were mostly correct from what I remember.  The FCC lists 22 channels for FRS, but a lot of these radios I had only do 16, in fact all of them except for the TD-M11 which has 22.  Now, I dont know if it will even let me program in the other channels that are in that 22 channel/freq list posted by the FCC.  I doubt it because the channel has a voice prompt that goes with it, and I think the voice is only recorded by the China boys to go up to 16 so I doubt I can add more channels to make up the 22.

https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/family-radio-service-frs (click on the data tab)

Thanks for the detailed response though.
 

[amaff]

How old are some of those radios? FRS and GMRS weren't 'unified' until 2017. If they're older radios, they may have different configurations.

[WSDA306]

2 hours ago, dosw said:

• A: The FRS channels predated GMRS channel numbering. When the services combined on frequencies, the frequencies were layered in. Additionally, the 15-22 frequencies, and the repeater input frequencies are the "mains", while the 1-7 and 8-14 are the interstitials; they are intentionally lower power (5w or 0.5w depending on the channel) so as to have less potential for interfering with the mains.
• B: Every FRS and GMRS radio I've used (Motorola FRS radios, Midland GMRS handheld radios, Motorola combination radios from before the rule change, Baofeng GMRS radios, Midland mobile radios, and Retevis mobile radios) use the same channel numbering. The earlier FRS didn't have channels 15-22. But aside from that the numbering has remained unaltered. You'll have to demonstrate model numbers that shipped with incorrect channel numbers per frequency. Or did you alter them with CHIRP?
• C : Yes, GMRS and FRS use all the same frequencies, except that GMRS adds the repeater input frequencies, as well. What you get by purchasing a GMRS license:
  • A call sign.
  • The right to transmit on a GMRS radio
  • Repeater capability
  • 5w instead of 2w on channels 1-7
  • 50w instead of 2w on channels 15-22
  • 50w instead of no right to transmit at all on repeater inputs.
  • Right to use external antennas (FRS is built-in antenna only)
  • Right to use mobile GMRS radios (FRS is handheld only) on channels 1-7 and 15-22, and repeaters.
  • Right to use base station GMRS radios (FRS is handheld only) on channels 1-7, 15-22, and repeaters.
  • Full access to all of these capabilities for your entire family (the license is family oriented).
• D : The NFM (narrowband FM) setting in Chirp sets the radio to 12.5kHz or less. The FM setting (wideband FM) in Chirp sets the radio to 20kHz or less.

You will also notice from your chart that the channel spacing between 15, 1, 16, 2, 17, 3, 18, 4, 19, 5, 20, 6, 21, 7, 22 is only 12.5kHz. 15, 16, 17, and so on are all spaced 25kHz apart, but the interstitials are also spaced 25kHz apart, and sandwiched directly between the mains. This is why they're called interstitial frequencies, and why they are limited to lower power (5w for 1-7, 0.5w for 8-14); as mentioned earlier, to reduce interference with the mains.

All of my FRS radios are programmed with these exact same settings in Chirp.  Except for the TD-M11 which has 22 channels, and the only reason really I did this is so they could all talk to my GMRS radio.  I figured, if I ever needed to hand out some radios to "some people" on a road trip, or camping, that are not in my family, I could give them one of these.  But they did not come this way.


And my GMRS is programmed like this although I have some other frequencies in higher channels that are simply for listening that are HAM.



Thanks for the detailed reply.

[WSDA306]

1 hour ago, amaff said:

How old are some of those radios? FRS and GMRS weren't 'unified' until 2017. If they're older radios, they may have different configurations.

They are all pretty new, bought them recently.  The Zastone X6 is the oldest, got it before Covid, maybe even 2 years before covid so not exactly sure on that one.  But I never used it as I read it wasnt in scope because of the 3 watt output.  But I like the audio quality so much and the clarity I decided to buy a few newer ones to see  how they were.

[nokones]

4 hours ago, amaff said:

Because the FCC decrees it as such.

Wait...I thought "all the radio manufacturers" programmed them the same, per A above, and just in a weird order to your tastes? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I've never seen a handheld GMRS or FRS radio where channel 1 wasn't 462.5625 across the board, channel 2 wasn't 462.5875 across the board, etc...
It can get weird with some of the mobile radios that choose to omit 8-14 (where they can't transmit) and so channel 15 becomes 8, but the frequencies should all line up.

Plus mobile radios, if you're into that sort of thing. And the handhelds can often be had in higher quality and with more bells and whistles than most FRS radios. But from some points of view that's a detriment.

As was stated above. FM = wide, NFM = narrow.

 

Most GMRS radios that do not have the ability to lower the RF output power to .5 watt for channels 8-14 will normally leave the channels 8-14 positions blank and allow those positions to be soft programmable with other GMRS channels and tones.

[WRYS709]

[UncleYoda]

23 hours ago, dosw said:

• Right to use base station GMRS radios (FRS is handheld only) on channels 1-7, 15-22, and repeaters.

Read the regs carefully.  Base stations are not included for the 467 repeater input freqs.

[BoxCar]

28 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Read the regs carefully.  Base stations are not included for the 467 repeater input freqs.

Which is not a problem as there are no "base station" radios. There are hand held and mobile units only. Some mobile units are used in a fixed location, but they are still mobile units.

[Lscott]

13 minutes ago, BoxCar said:

Which is not a problem as there are no "base station" radios. There are hand held and mobile units only. Some mobile units are used in a fixed location, but they are still mobile units.

I don't think the FCC would agree.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/95.303

The definition of "Base station" makes NO assumptions about the manufacture's classification of the radio.

It would seem the definition is not the label slapped on it by the manufacture but the actual usage of the station independent of the manufactures targeted usage. The prime example is a radio with a nominal 13.8VDC power supply input but connected to a wall powered converter and never leaves the house.

[SteveShannon]

8 minutes ago, Lscott said:

I don't think the FCC would agree.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/95.303

It would seem the definition is not the label slapped on it by the manufacture but the actual usage of the station independent of the manufactures targeted usage. The prime example is a radio with a nominal 13.8VDC power supply input but connected to a wall powered converter and never leaves the house.

Exactly. 

[dosw]

39 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

Exactly. 

So we're saying that if I take a mobile GMRS radio and hook it up to an external antenna and an external power supply at my desk inside the home, which, I think, makes it a base station, at that point I'm not allowed to use it to hit a GMRS repeater?

[WRQC527]

4 minutes ago, dosw said:

So we're saying that if I take a mobile GMRS radio and hook it up to an external antenna and an external power supply at my desk inside the home, which, I think, makes it a base station, at that point I'm not allowed to use it to hit a GMRS repeater?

It would appear so. Which I find odd, because one of the premier repeaters in southern California hosts a net that I presume is run from someone's house. Unless he's sitting in his driveway on an HT or in his car. 

[WRXB215]

As long as your "base station" isn't transmitting at more than 50watts, and you are not causing interference, I doubt the FCC is going to care.

[SteveShannon]

33 minutes ago, dosw said:

So we're saying that if I take a mobile GMRS radio and hook it up to an external antenna and an external power supply at my desk inside the home, which, I think, makes it a base station, at that point I'm not allowed to use it to hit a GMRS repeater?

Yes, that’s how I interpret the regulations. 
But in fact how would anyone know and why would they care. 

[UncleYoda]

32 minutes ago, dosw said:

So we're saying that if I take a mobile GMRS radio and hook it up to an external antenna and an external power supply at my desk inside the home, which, I think, makes it a base station, at that point I'm not allowed to use it to hit a GMRS repeater?

Correct.  I don't like it and did not notice that until after I got the license and ordered radios.  I do most of my radio usage at home, not on the road much anymore.  I even tried asking FCC about this and got nothing but BS like reading the regs to me which I already knew.  So, yea, it appears most users routinely break that rule.

[marcspaz]

Hmmm I wonder how they would classify a radio installed in a vehicle, but connected to an antenna mounted on a building, but then, because it's all still on the same property, I use a hot-spot in the vehicle to remotely control the mobile radio from my computer to operate the radio from inside the building. Man, make my head hurt just thinking about it.

[marcspaz]

12 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

Some users try to stay "legal" while the enforcement agency still exists.  The fact that someone you're talking to doesn't know what type of setup you're using (unless they ask, which they often do at least on HAM) doesn't make it OK.  The rationale that you're not likely to get caught can be used for many other things if you choose to take the risk.  But that won't-get-caught approach is not how our system of government is intended to operate.

 

The reality is that this is another great example of how the rules are contradictory and therefore can't be followed. 

 

The rules specifically exclude using a base station to transmit on repeater frequencies. But the definition of a base station is defined by how it's used. So if I use a radio at a fixed location to talk to handhelds and repeaters, by definition it's no longer a base station. So how can the circular logic work? The short answer is, it can't.