[Radios For Forestry Work]

1 hour ago, Radioguy7268 said:

Business/LMR users are still held to an ID requirement by the FCC - but if they use a repeater most of them just allow the repeater to use the automated Morse Code ID. Most business users who are just using simplex routinely ignore the Callsign/ID requirement - but that doesn't mean the requirement doesn't exist.

Call a local radio shop in the are who has experience with what your doing. Internet advice is full of holes.

 

1 hour ago, OffRoaderX said:

I guess i'm going to jail..  along with the thousands of other business/LMR users in my area.

But @Radioguy7268 is correct -there is a rule and I stood corrected.

 

There are many exemptions waving station identification for Part 90.  Especially digitally encrypted communications where the ID is embedded in the signal, when the Commission is provided keys sufficient to decipher the data transmission.

[Wouxun KG-935G Plus vs Yaesu FT-60R, Whoa!]

 

There is so much that can make one radio appear to be better than the other.  First, UHF waves travel through things (trees, building, etc.) much better than lower frequency radio waves.  Then there are other differences, such as in antennas, variations in power, etc.

 

The reality is, even if you had both radios with the same antenna and GMRS frequency, the Yaasu is tuned for a lower frequency.  As you start to move more and more out of the range the radio is designed and tuned for, the worse the performance will get.

 

I am a huge fan of both brands, but in this case, I think you discovered more of a point that you found one tool is more appropriate for the conditions than the other. Not necessarily that one is better than the other as far as design, function, sensitivity or other RF performance specs.

[Is 50 watts a waste?]

1 hour ago, Lscott said:

At a reasonable cost. There is better cable, various types of "hard line", but gets expensive real fast.

 

I got a new repeater a few days ago and started pricing hardline for the new setup... it's going to cost me about $1,300 for 250 feet and a couple of connectors.  I only paid $350 for the repeater.  It's wild... but if you want it to work...

[distance]

2 hours ago, nokones said:

There is no legitimate reason for a parent to have direct communication contact with the kids throughout the day when they are in school and under the school's supervision. Parents need to have trust in the school officials.

 

2 hours ago, nokones said:

Parents have no business interfering during school hours. Don't over parent.

 

I like you as a person and don't want to have you think less of me, and I definitely don't want to spark a political debate, but as a Constitutional Conservative with a few Libertarian leanings, I could not disagree more.  I'll skip the politics part for now, but we haven't even identified if the "kids" are adults in college or not.  I'm a grandpa and my offspring are in their 30's, but I still call them "my kids". LOL  This drastically modifies what is considered acceptable behavior for all parties, if they are grown-ups.

[Helical/Corkscrew in Mobile Antennas: What’s the high-level science explanation?]

1 hour ago, back4more70 said:

I see that my Nagoya UT-72G GMRS antenna does not have a coil, but my Tram 1181 VHF/UHF antenna does.  Hmm...

 

On the Nagoya UT-72G, the coil in in the base of the antenna, referred to as a bottom load.  The Tram 1181 has a coil in the middle, referred to as a center load.

[distance]

Man... hard to answer without more info.  Are you talking about as close to guaranteed as you can get for emergency communications or non-critical recreational?  Are they in college or secondary school?

 

If you are looking for non-critical recreational communications, I would lean away from UHF or even VHF communications.  It's possible, but not likely in a vast majority of the country.  Your most affordable and reliable would be to all get your general class amateur radio license and us HF.  With proper antennas at all locations and adjusting the frequency used based on the time of day, you would be able to talk directly for 12 to 15 hours per day, with blackout periods during and surrounding mid-day.

 

If it needs to be discreet and it just has to work, get a Garmin InReach Mini 2 or InReach Messenger and a Recreation or Expedition plan for each person.

[Helical/Corkscrew in Mobile Antennas: What’s the high-level science explanation?]

 

 

Okay, I will try to make this as painless as possible.  No promises though.  Hopefully, if I make a mistake, some of the smarter guys will let us know.

 

High-level Science

OffRoaderX is correct, but there is one other reason that is pretty common that comes to mind, specifically for phasing multi-band antennas.  Though, this obviously doesn't apply to GMRS specific antennas.

Quick example... the Diamond NR770 dual-band mobile antenna is listed as a 1/2 wave VHF antenna and a 2 phase 5/8 wave UHF antenna.  There is a coil in the center of the antenna to electrically make a VHF half wave antenna, which has almost no gain.  The coil also acts like a separator and a phase coupler(?) for each 5/8 wave segment, being the straight parts below and above the coil, leading to having about 3 dB of gain.

 

Is there a compromise?

eh... for GMRS, there is normally a benefit associated with it, such as having a gain antenna in a smaller package.  I am not really sure of any drawbacks if it built right.

 

Is performance advantage material dependent? 

Sort of.  Some materials conduct electricity better than others, but the common materials used for antennas have negligible performance differences.

[Filter out only one DCS code?]

6 hours ago, Sshannon said:

It is feasible. The feature is called lockout. Unfortunately no retail GMRS radios that I know of have it, but scanners and some commercial radios have it. 

 

Part of me thinks Reverse Tone Squelch and Tone Lockout would be great features to include in a GMRS radio.  Another part of me thinks that the whole KISS principle for the general consumer market is not a bad idea, either.

[Still a newbie. What does "3 by 5" mean?]

Some of these response are funny, and true.  LOL

 

I wish that people would us plain English on GMRS, but if someone is going to use a scale, they would be more helpful if they said something like I would give you a 3 out of 5 or a 4 out of 5.  That is something most people understand.

 

Unless you're a radio dork or was in the military at a very specific time in history, you would have no idea what "Q3" or "Q5" is or what someone means when they say "you're in the pipe 3x5." 

[Got My New MXT500 - Not Impressed]

@WRYZ926  The MXT500 having low power out of the box was the biggest let down.  I had hoped that Midland fixed the issue since then... but I guess not.

 

The only upside is, there is almost zero difference between 35w and 50w, from a real-world use standpoint.  You can measure a difference, but likely wouldn't see an extra 10 feet in range.

[Got My New MXT500 - Not Impressed]

@nokones great test results. The current draw, voltage and power readings all agree, which is good, as it shows common efficiency, too.

 

BTW, what model repeater is that vertex? I get a kick out of seeing rack mount equipment on a home work bench. My kinda people. LoL

[New GRMS Repeater Site]

12 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

because he DESERVES respect

 

That ship sailed loooong time ago.

[New GRMS Repeater Site]

@WRKC935... who hurt you?  LOL

[Got My New MXT500 - Not Impressed]

While I was not initially impressed with the radio, after spending time using it, it became 1 of 2 radios I recommend for an OTC purpose built radio.  I recommend the KG-1000G for those who want the bells and whistles and like to play with tech, and I recommend the MXT500 or MXT575 for people who just want it to work out of the box and simple operation. 

 

Everyone has their opinions. There are plenty of good radios on the market for varying prices, but the Midland radios are definitely a good brand with quality options.

[GMRS Type Accepted Radio List]

2 minutes ago, WSAA635 said:

I guess I'm just too Libertarian for some people.  I understand that there are "Rules and Regulations" about the frequencies we can use. I just don't think it makes sense to regulate the equipment. I think ALL radios that are manufactured and sold should be "legal" to use on any and all frequencies that a person is licensed to use. That would solve a lot of these issues.

 

I get it... if all radios were equally well built and met the greatest of standards, I would tend to agree.  However, they are not, hence the rules.

[GMRS Type Accepted Radio List]

18 minutes ago, Lscott said:

I was at the Ham swap a while back in Fort Wayne Indiana. Part of the free test bench, used for checking used radios people buy before leaving, had a Rigol spectrum analyzer setup. The link below is the model I believe they were using at the time, DSA-815.

https://www.rigolna.com/products/spectrum-analyzers/dsa800/

Some people were solicited specifically so they could test their radios as an informal survey. The results were socking for some people when they saw the results.

The original classic UV-5R was well known for poor filtering of harmonics on the output. I found the attached VHF spectrum tests for one on-line and a copy of the schematic, likely the first generation design, for the radio.

UV-5R VHF Harmonics Test.pdf 154.98 kB · 0 downloads SCHEMATIC Baofeng UV-5R.pdf 1.58 MB · 0 downloads

 

 

Wow!  That HT is horrific!  I'm not surprised... but I should be.  LOL 

 

Thanks for sharing.  That really drives home the point.

 

8 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

I don’t think you have turned on us, but you have gotten to the point where you have expressed a disregard for the regulations and it’s clear you don’t understand (or even want to understand) why they exist. 
There are four sets of frequencies in GMRS. The requirements for bandwidth and RF power (and how measured) vary considerably with some of the frequencies (interstitial) wedged tightly in between others from other sets.
You claim the right to transmit on these frequencies with whatever radio you want to use, but you don’t know what you don’t know. 
So, that’s kind of off-putting to people who are trying to help you learn. 

 

 

QFT !!!

[GMRS Type Accepted Radio List]

5 minutes ago, WSAA635 said:

How, pray tell, have I "turned" on you? I simply believe as a Free American I should have the Right to use any radio I want to talk on the GMRS channels that I'm licensed to use. I'm not going to talk on HAM frequencies, I'm not licensed for those. 

I honestly don't understand why some make such a HUGE deal about the equipment when the REAL focus should be on the channels/frequencies we're using. If you're licensed for GMRS then talk on GMRS, the radio that's used shouldn't matter.  

 

 

Honestly... I (mostly) agree with you.  100+ years ago, we didn't need permission from the government to grow food, fish, use a radio, etc.  What was once considered our Rights have somehow evolved into us having permission to do things on a free-range human tax farm.  The ATF/BATFE is a great example.  Machine guns, short barrel rifles and suppressors are "dangerous and unusual"... but if you pay your tax, all of a sudden everything is fine.  The whole concept is ridiculous. 

 

I feel like much of our government suffers from the same hypocrisy, with agencies like the FCC being almost as bad as the ATF, when it comes to rule making.  The problem is, as part of living in a polite, civilized society, we have all agreed to live by these rules. 

 

If there are rules missing or rules we don't like, the people (at least in theory these days) have the ability to change those rules by petitioning the government.  However, with very limited exception, if there are rules we don't like, we have agreed to live by them until the rule changes or is repealed.

 

So, with that said, I provided you with fact about why things are the way they are.  I don't necessarily agree with all of it due to a common moral compass that many of us share.  However, that same moral compass guides me toward typically following the rules we all agreed to follow and not publicly condoning ignoring those rules.

 

I share this at the risk of sounding too political, because I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from.  And while I obviously can't speak for others, I have a funny feeling that many people who are protesting using non-compliant radios or FCC rule violations, likely feel darn close to what I do, if not the same.

[GMRS Type Accepted Radio List]

15 minutes ago, WSAA635 said:

You all should give this video that was posted by Randy to his YouTubes channel(NotaRubicon Productions) a watch.https://youtu.be/d2LIaKU-wo0?si=9Qb1svzHDYUo4wX6

 

I am acquainted.  I am one of the people that Randy consulted with on a video about Spurs, where he actually tested radios with an analyzer.

[GMRS Type Accepted Radio List]

2 minutes ago, WSAA635 said:

You're saying that a GMRS radio that's approved for Type 95e won't have "Spurious Emissions" that'll interfere with Emergency Services frequencies,

 

Yes, that is the point behind the certification process.  Not that the transmitter is perfect, but any imperfections will not cause harm due to meeting level/performance requirements.

  

2 minutes ago, WSAA635 said:

aren't HAM radios also tested for spurious emissions or are they allowed to emit harmonics across the transmitted spectrum?  If anything I'd think a radio certified for HAM use would be even better quality (regarding spurious emissions) than a GMRS certified radio.

 

No.  Amateur Radio equipment does not require type acceptance.  It is an experimental classification and people build/create their own technologies, as well as some commercial OTC options.  The requirement of type acceptance would contradict the nature of the service.

 

Also, amateur radio licensees are tested and expected to know the rules, limits and guidelines to prevent interference with other services.  In fact, there are several parts of the spectrum that Hams use, where they are not even the primary users.  We share space with DOD and Emergency Services (as well as other commercial and gov space) and are expected to not only not cause interference, but yield to the primary when they are present.

  

2 minutes ago, WSAA635 said:

Something like a Yaesu FT-65r shouldn't have very much if any spurious emissions regardless of the frequency it's transmitting on. Just because it's not Type 95e approved doesn't mean it's automatically a danger to Public Safety frequencies and to assume so without testing is just ludicrous.  

 

After decades or running tests on radios for CB, GMRS and Amateur Radio, I can 100% say that amateur equipment is not as clean as many think.  Most of the GMRS equipment I have tested is far cleaner than most Amaeur equipment I have tested on the same frequencies.  And, while I am a huge fan of Yaesu, owning an FT65 as well as a FT3D and several mobiles, Yaesu is actually one of the worst offenders of dirty transmitters that I have seen.  Much worse than even the most inexpensive BTech type approved GMRS radios.

[GMRS Type Accepted Radio List]

10 hours ago, WSAA635 said:

I think a lot of us simply don't care if the FCCs approved the radio we're using. As long as it'll transmit on GMRS Frequencies(which I'm licensed for) and FRS/MURS Frequencies(which needs no license) then why should anyone (aside from some Sad HAMs in training)give a flip what we're using.

It's not like I'm going to transmit on HAM frequencies and clog up "Their" airwaves. 

 

 

You should care. It has nothing to do with Ham radio.  The main reason type accepting is even a thing is because there are emergency frequencies adjacent to GMRS, and at harmonic frequencies. Type approved radios have been tested and confirmed to not cause harmful interference on those emergency frequencies. Others have not.

 

I know I wouldn't want to be responsible for loss of life or property because I didn't buy an appropriate radio. 

 

Also, you don't have a GMRS Operator License. You have a GMRS Station License that is only valid while operating a type-approved station. If you are not using a GMRS radio certified for use by the FCC, you are in violation of rules and the license is not valid for those communications.  This opens you up to criminal liability if harmful interference does occur. 

[85 Miles? How far away have you made contact?]

7 hours ago, WRXB215 said:

WOW! I never gat anywhere near these kinds of distance. Perhaps it's all the buildings, chemical plants, trees, and houses full of fffff...FURNITURE! 

 

I wouldn't sweat it too much.  Around my area, normal range (say mobile to mobile) is about 3 miles.  On a good day, if both operators are on high spots, maybe 8 to 9 miles.

[85 Miles? How far away have you made contact?]

The UHF band is line of sight. So, the further you can see, the further you can talk. I lost track of my longest GMRS contact, but I have talked to astronauts on the ISS at 250 miles above the Earth with only 5w on VHF/UHF.  I think my longest GMRS contact was about 170 miles while on a mountain over 4,500' MSL.

[Is 50 watts a waste?]

First, there is a common understanding in the world that we should only use as much power as we need. So, how much do you need for your reliable communications? 

 

Second, there is a common misconception the you have to quadruple your power to make a usable difference. However, the reality is, on any given instant you never know how much or how little more power will really make the difference between getting your message out or not.

 

Last, in my opinion, you can never have too much love, money or power. 

[GMRS Type Accepted Radio List]

It's hard to find good help these days.

[GMRS or HAM for mixed terrain]

First, I agree with nokones.  All things being equal, UHF Ham won't perform any different than GMRS.  The atmospheric losses around 465 MHz are so high as 12 miles that it would have to truly be an unobstructed view.  The moment you put something in the way, it won't work.