AdmiralCochrane

Good citizenship and giving back to the community for the common good are valid justifications why a repeater owner might open their repeater up for others individuals to use. I for one know that if I put one up I would most likely share it.
 
I get the sense however from some that they feel I should be obligated to give them use of my equipment if I happened to have the means and choose to acquire it. It is that sense of entitlement that really troubles me.
 
If I owned a chainsaw I would likely loan it out to a family member or neighbor when I learned they were in need and/or they otherwise asked. However, I would not look to kindly on a random person entering my property and using of my possessions without my consent merely because they learned from a friend of a friend that I owned what they wanted.
 
Perhaps I grew up in an old school and time when being polite and asking permission were cherished and respected traits of a polite society. Perhaps now I need to learn things have changed and it is perfectly appropriate to borrow things from others without their consent. Under this mindset it would seem I should be able to borrow that lawnmower sitting outside in someone’s yard without their consent, or perhaps even their car which is sitting on a public street, as long as I return it when I am done with it.
 
I will restate again (see my earlier post in this thread) that the FCC itself clearly showed its intent with regards to repeater access. They indicate (and I paraphrase) that the repeater owner “may” grant access to the use of the repeater to others and “may” revoke permission. In this regard, its is legally their decision.
 
Don’t give the repeater owners a bad rap for not giving you permission to use their equipment. Instead, be thankful, friendly and polite to those that do give you permission. Perhaps befriend them with an offer to contribute towards ongoing operating expenses as a sign of your ongoing appreciation. If someone does not give you permission, respect their decision, don’t just steal it. If you really need a repeater find a legal way to get one of you own on the air.
 
BTW, I am am both an amateur and GMRS licensee. I feel the same about both.
 
Being respectful and polite goes a long way.
 
Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM
 
P.S. If you are one that truly feels that all GMRS repeaters should be open to all, then perhaps the FCC needs to be lobbied and the Part 95 rules need to be changed. Be prepared however for higher taxes and or many current repeater owners taking them off the air as no one likes to be told what to do.
 
 
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You have brought up this issue before, and I and others have responded. GMRS is not a general two way public radio service like CB or ham. If you want to meet locals on the radio I strongly suggest you look into those two services. You are far more likely to make the connections you seem to be looking for.
 
While the definitions of radio services are not always all encompassing  (I.e. some leeway may apply) here are the service definitions from the FCC.
GMRS
General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS). A mobile two-way voice communication service, with limited data applications, for facilitating activities of individual licensees and their family members, including, but not limited to, voluntary provision of assistance to the public during emergencies and natural disasters.
 
FRS
Family Radio Service (FRS). A short-distance two-way voice communication service, with limited data applications, between low power hand-held radios, for facilitating individual, family, group, recreational and business activities.
 
CB
CB Radio Service (CBRS). A mobile and fixed two-way voice communication service for facilitating personal, business or voluntary public service activities, including communications to provide assistance to highway travelers.
 
Ham Radio
The rules and regulations in this part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles:
a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.
 Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art.
c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communication and technical phases of the art.
d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.
e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill.

I have a few new “ham” radios that tx on GMRS freqs.
One of them needed a button pushed while being powered up, but that’s it.
2 just needed to be programmed.
I have a 4th radio, that one needed the “Mars mod” but that also wasn’t an issue.
 
Ham radios aren’t licensed. If you can build your own, why can’t you buy one. Seems silly, and I think they addressed that... while still leaving some confusion.
 
The way I read it is. Once modified, they lose certification, thus CAN be used by amateur radio operators, but only on the frequencies they have privileges on based on their level of license.
The confusing part is radios “marketed” for GMRS. If you can take a GMRS legal radio, and mid it for use on ham freqs... that might be illegal, but still seems silly.
I guess for hams, it takes a different route.
Because the radios for ham use are not (theoretically) marketed towards GMRS use, they don’t need to be certified for GMRS use in the first place. They still can’t tx on GMRS freqs, but can clearly listen, and can still use their freqs.
 
Example. A ham can buy an Icom 7100. It is not certified for GMRS use. It can be modded for such use, but was never marketed for GMRS use.
A ham can build their own radio that can tx on all sorts of freqs. They just can tx on freqs they don’t have privileges on.
Even with all the double backpedaling, most judges would see this is to vague and confusing to be enforceable.
I would assume it’s probably as high on the list of things the FCC cares about as how many Baofengs are being used on GMRS.

Uhf is pretty line of sight, what is your antenna situation? That will have more effect (especially for receiving) than more power.
 
The other issue in a big city environment is noise, and the tendency for the receiver to desense to avoid overload, it may not entirely be a problem of signal reaching, but also picking it out of the noise.
 
If there is a repeater in range of both of you, maybe focus toward optimizing for that?
 
Granted vhf and uhf behave a bit differently, but 5 watts on vhf can reach the space station when conditions are right
https://www.qsl.net/ah6rh/am-radio/spacecomm/getting-started-iss.html

In GMRS, and other UHF services, power is far less important than signal path. For UFH signal path is essentially LOS (line of sight). Depending on the exact frequency there may be a bit of bending, reflection or fresnel effect. But, the one sure element is LOS.  With that in mind, 6 or 7 miles at 5 watts with LOS between the two locations is no problem. Increasing the wattage to the legal maximum of 50 watts will only make a difference in terms of overcoming other traffic on the same channel. That is because of the FM capture effect in which the "louder" of two signals is heard while the weaker one is lost.  This would help you, and wipe out the other user(s) you were stomping on.  So, not a good idea.
 
Also, if you really want power then you would be advised to purchase a good quality mobile radio (possibly used) that operates at the power level you want., Not only would you get 40 or 50 watts of power (there is almost difference between the two: < 1db), but, you would also get a much better receiver that would be capable of rejecting noise and adjacent channel interference in an RF rich environment like NYC.
 
On the other hand, coupling a cheap radio like the UV-5R, with its poor quality receiver, to a cheap 50 watt amplifier, with lots of noise and spurious emissions is not only unlikely to meet your needs, but will probably piss off a lot of other nearby GMRS operators.  Also note, you can only operate simplex at 50 watts on 8 of the GMRS channels, and those are also repeater outputs and likely to be busy.  The other 14 channels limit you to 5 or 0.5 watts.
 
So, if you really want GMRS, I would suggest you look at your antenna options. A pair of good medium to high gain antennas will help focus your output power and reduce unwanted signal reception. However, beware that the limits for most of the GMRS channels (1-14) are ERP (effective radiated power) that includes any antenna gain.
 
As another option for unlicensed radio use (as opposed to ham radio) you might look at MURS. This is a VHF service and might give you better propagation in your area. There is a separate forum for MURS on the MyGMRS Forum.  Or, skip radio altogether and try an IP based approach, like Zello.

I am with others here on a number of fronts.
 
UV-5R is not a good radio choose for use in a busy RF environment. You will invariably want a radio with a much better receiver, perhaps even a high-end commercial one. While you own your UV-5R, learn what it can and cannot do so when you finally upgrade to a top end radio you can appreciate it.
 
The UV-5R is not legal for use on GMRS. If it were legal, and you used it with an external amplifier, you would only be allowed to transmit on the 8 main GMRS frequencies as berkinet has already indicated. 14 frequencies would be off limits due to the .5w and 5w limits.
 
GMRS frequencies will travel great distances when you have line of sight. Every obstacle between you and your intended receiver will reduce effective distance. In the city where you have miles and miles of tall buildings you have massive volumes of obstacles. Repeater antennas generally find their home on some of the tallest grounds available (buildings, towers, etc...) so they achieve the greatest coverage (footprint) possible. Finding a repeater in the area that has acceptable coverage in your area and you friends would be a huge win for you.
 
Without an antenna on top of your property and on top of your friends property, and without limited obstacles between these two antenna, no I do not believe that extra power will give you the results you seek. If you can, but just barely, get into a repeater with 8 watts, perhaps an increase from 8 to 50 would in-fact improve your signal strength into the repeater, but I would not expect it lead to simplex capability with your friend at that range. If I new I needed 50 watts, I would use an all-in-one radio with 50 watts, not a HT with external amp.
 
If you can get into repeater with 8 watts, but just barely, you could also consider a Yagi antenna that is pointed permanently and optimally to reach the repeater, the Yagi may make it possible to get in without an external amp. Case and point. There is a local operator that lives about 45 miles from a repeater we both use. He can get into the repeater strong enough to carry on a conversation with his HT set only to 1/2 watt. Signal is a noisy but I can still understand every word. When he kicks his power up to 25 watts, he sounds as good as operators 5-10 miles from the repeater.
 
Hope this helps.
 
MIchael
WRHS965
KE8PLM
 
 
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No offense, but no one is stopping you from using the service you paid to use, all 22 channels of it. They absolutely do have the option of deciding who uses their equipment (repeaters) though, for whatever valid or silly reason they may have.
 
It was a harsh realization for me too, but gmrs isn't a hobbyist oriented service, it's primarily aimed at families and groups having comms within their groups with minimal technical knowledge needed, and outside this bubble we have here, it's pretty much how most people use it, as a utility among their group, and stick to their group....which means they'll generally have their tones set not to hear outsiders.
 
I've had a total of one contact so far, as there's basically almost no hobbyist traffic here either. Also recently got booted from a gmrs group on Facebook, because one of their "instant ban" rules is no mention of other radio services (ham, cb, Murs, etc); guess I slipped and forgot which group I was replying to and supplied some info about online testing availability for ham tickets (in addition to that one, I'm in a couple gmrs groups and few ham groups as well).

First, I'm sorry if this comes off as cross, however the way you had typed and worded this message promotes the air of "I want it therefore it should be given to me" type of attitude, which to many repeater owners, translates to abuse of equipment they paid for and maintain. Everyone has a gripe, its discussion of the concern or issue in an adult manor that brings some form of resolution or at very least a little more respect for you as a person.
 
Now second, if you have read the FCC rules that you agreed to, you will find the following:
 
47 CFR 95.1705 (D) Individual Licensee Duties, The holder of an individual license:
(2) May allow any person to use (i.e., benefit from the operation of) its GMRS repeater, or alternatively, may limit the use of its GMRS repeater to specific persons;
(3) May disallow the use of its GMRS repeater by specific persons as may be necessary to carry out its responsibilities under this section.
 
Another words, as a repeater owner, I have the authority to refuse access to users who fail to follow FCC rules, or fail to follow rules I have set for the use of the repeater (Including collection of any club fees associated with maintaining said repeater/repeaters) or if you conduct yourself in a way that may be harmful or interfering of any communications through said repeater. I have banned people for prolonged "key up" times where they were intentionally jamming the repeater in hopes of damaging the unit. I also banned a user who tried to tell me I had to pay him for the use of the repeater I had bought and set up.
 
This means that when you contact the FCC, they will likely ignore you, or if you do get a response, it'll likely be "The system owner has legal authority to restrict the systems use to specific individuals."

Two meta points. This is the wrong forum for this discussion. Since your topic is specific to GMRS it is very much on-topic and you should post it in the General forum.
 
Then, if you look in that forum, you will find there is already long running discussion on this very subject.
https://forums.mygmrs.com/topic/2085-whats-with-repeater-users-needing-permission-on-gmrs/

I will also agree with mbrun's take, speaking a 50x1 owner with a couple different repeaters in range on the the same frequency. It's kind of a pain not being able to save more tx entries, even if within bounds for gmrs.
 
Midland are very plug and play, and generally well supported, but have their own limitations;if repeater access is desired, the xtalkers are likely out.
 
The wouxun handheld is solid, and easy to set up. I have high hopes for their mobile to be similar, and the remote head is a bonus, but it's slightly pricy, and still a bit of an unknown.
 
Among the 3 options, I think wouxun is the best. If you're willing to mix, you could do a Midland base and wouxun ht. Axorlov also raises a good point about the commercial options being good alternatives.

I was quite thrilled yesterday.  I replaced the rubber duck antenna with a whip for my 4-watt HT and heard someone on a repeater I can receive.  That repeater is a little over 22 miles away according to google maps.  On a whim I went outside and gave it a shot.  The fellow on the other end (the repeater owner) heard me! We had a quick conversation (I had family duties with dinner), but long enough to know it works, he heard me "well" and gave me a tip to talk with the mic close to my mouth since the distance/signal was weak enough there wouldn't be any over-deviation.  HIs repeater has a preamp which helped I'm sure.  
 
 
I'm one happy camper.  

I am so sorry you had that rude experience. Don’t give up. I hope you find an alternate repeater to use or a more friendly group of folks to converse with. I just don’t get the negative attitude some people push on others. Whenever you do find yourself on the air practice courtesy and friendliness yourself and hopefully others will follow your lead. Giving up is easy. Leading is hard work.
 
Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM.
 
 
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Maybe some folks donated to a fund for the repeater and think of themselves as "part owner" of sorts.  No excuse for being rude...I'm just puzzling out loud the reason.  Unless the repeater owner says get lost, I would ignore them.  

I agree with your comment about accepting responsibility for the consequences of our words [and actions] while keeping in mind the 1st amendment to the US Constitution applies specifically to the government:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 
Courts have held the term Congress to apply to government in general. However, private enterprises and citizens are not bound by this amendment. So, whatever freedom of expression we have on this forum is limited to that which the owners and operators allow us.  Fortunately, on this forum we have been given a fairly broad latitude in this respect. However, along with that privilege of expression comes the responsibility to use it thoughtfully and not abuse it.

I think your application is an appropriate use for a low power portable repeater. Yes you could use a standard mobile antenna on top of camper as that would definitely make it higher than your HT antenna so that would have a positive effect on your effective range. You might also give consideration to getting your antenna up higher, perhaps an additional 10-15-20 feet. You could do that by using one of the readily accessible push-up fiber glass antenna masts available from various amateur radio supply shops. They collapse and store easily. You could set this on the ground next to camper, raise it up and secure to side of your camper. There are tripods available for some also.
 
For those new to GMRS and reading this message, antenna height is more way more important than power when it comes to range. Your investment in height will pay more in dividends than any high-powered expensive radio.
 
One special reason for height in a tightly packed KOA campground is all the metal sided campers. The more of those campers in the path of your signal, the greater your signal loss and reduction in effective range.
 
I would start with your initial idea. See if it works to your satisfaction. If range is acceptable, let it fly. If you need more range, raise the antenna.
 
Regards,
 
Michael
WHRS965
KE8PLM
 
 
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Nothing wrong with that idea. Who do you propose should take on the responsibility of doing that?  A thread was setup for exactly that purpose a few months ago, it went dead after listings for a half-dozen radios or so.  I can't even find that topic now.

Most people only seem to care about new vs used, it seems that we've been brainwashed to think used == garbage... new == good. So, until that mentality isn't eviscerated, people will keep buying  garbage new CCRs no matter how atrocious the specs are...
 
As a recently rehabilitated CCR addict, I can tell you this: none of those specs tables, spec comparison, etc, none would make a lick of a difference, a) b/c most people don't understand what the specs mean b ) all CCR specs are "made up" to match whatever the radio they are trying to "oust" in the market. are... The best analogy I can think of ATM is cheap flashlights made in China, using China Lumens, using a knock-off CREE leds too... like the infamous CREE XML-T6, which puts about 800 lumens under most realistic scenarios... but the cheap china flashlights manufacturers claim their cheap knockoff magically produces 5000 Lumens now... again... this is the same exact thing. Until you don't try a real CREE led, on a high quality flashlight housing/reflector etc, and see the massive difference in color temperature, CRI level, beam pattern, etc...  you'll keep buying the cheap flashlights.... The same applies to radios, and I can safely state that nothing short of a real world demonstration would've convinced me to believe that the CCRs I was buying were actually crap... 
 
G.

All good - but it'd be a much more accurate comparo (to the previous test) if you'd match the receiver and video bandwidths - and the test was done using the same test equipment....

Here is the same basic test with a Yaesu FT-1D.  Note that all harmonic spurs are well below the noise floor,  at least 62dB down from the fundamental frequency. This is what is meant by "spectrally pure!"
 
 

People need to see comparisons to understand.  Can you show us a Japanese radio as well?
 
 

The flip side is at those prices, a lot more people can dip their toe in.  When they realize it's for them, they can grow into a better system.  

This is a spectral purity test from a typical Bao Feng HT. Note the existence of 1st., 2nd., and 3rd. harmonic 'spurs'. This is what you want to amplify? A properly designed transmitter would have adequate filtration to suppress those spurs almost completely.

GMRS can be linked via internet, there are entire GMRS networks already in place... now you're saying its illegal? 
 
G.
 

How much you paid for this wonder?
 
G.

Wow, you say you paid 69 dollars for that Bao...?? man, that is bad... sounds like you got ripped off...  I paid 29 bucks for an UV-82FHP (8w) back in 2018...  
 
G.