Are GMRS repeaters required to identify every 15 minutes?

[WRAX891]

I’ve heard different acendotes on this, but looking for what actually FCC regulations: are GMRS repeaters required to identify every 15 minutes even if there is no traffic? I know amateur repeaters are, every 10, regardless of traffic or not. Have elected tower site for GMRS and eventually (no rush) may enact a a GMRS repeater. (40W). Read acecotes saying yes and no, but interested more in actual GMRS FCC regs. Planing quality equipment, duplexers. Feedline. If ID is needed. No problems will add ID controller. System looking at is a Bridgecom and duplexers. Antenna will be masted at 50’, highest I can possibly go. It won’t be at my residence, but relatives on hilltop overlooking city skyline. I’ll be monitoring it from my home and ?can remotely “kill” it. Most uses would be family, but will be completely open for public general use. Thsvks!

[WRAK968]

To my understanding, GMRS users are required to identify, but repeaters are not. I do use a CW call-sign on my repeater just in case something goes wrong or there's interference someone can identify it and contact me, but it is not required.

[coryb27]

No the repeater is not required to ID, however the user is required under rule. This has been discussed many times on this site.

[Jones]

..... I know amateur repeaters are, every 10, regardless of traffic or not. ...

 

Sorry, but that is not correct. Amateur repeaters (just like operators) are required to ID at the beginning of a transmission sequence, every 10 minutes during, and at the end of the transmission sequence.  If no further traffic is repeated, the machine may then sit silent until the next sequence begins.

 

Normally, when a ham repeater is first keyed up, or "cerchuncked", it will send an ID immediately. If no one then uses the machine, it will ID again in 10 minutes, then stay quiet.  If someone does use the machine, it will ID every 10 minutes during the conversation.  If the conversation ends after 27 minutes, then after an additional 3 minutes, the machine will send the final ID at the 30 minute time slot, then be silent until keyed up again.

 

For GMRS, there is nothing in the rules that require a repeater to ID, but the operators must.  Just for good measure, most repeater operators ID their machines as well.  I have mine set up just like a ham repeater, except the ID timer is set to 15 minutes rather than 10 minutes.  It stays silent until I key it up, then it will ID after the first transmission.  If I talk for 3 minutes, then sign off, it will stay quiet for 12 minutes, then send the final ID before going back quiet.

 

By the way, I use Bridgecom repeaters as you mentioned, and they already have this Morse ID function built-in.  At set-up, you type in your call sign, and set the ID timer for 10 or 15 minute intervals.

[RickW]

Although there is no ID requirement for beginning transmissions for either amateur radio or GMRS, most of us need to do this so others will know who is on the frequency when we first key up. (It is almost a trick question which we have had for decades on the amateur radio exams).

 

The repeater needs to ID via voice or morse ID except:

 

95.1751

 

© Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if:

 

(1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates; and,

 

(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section. 

 

Which could be interpreted that unless the repeater is exclusively used by the individual or family group (who ID's accordingly), it would need to ID via voice or Morse. But it could it be interpreted differently, if you broaden "operating under authority" to mean anyone who gets permission from the owner?

 

In my area of SW Wisconsin, there are several GMRS repeaters that do not ID at any time. We have one on Channel 21 (700) that is very strong and I was able to track down by a former license holder who I have heard re-purposed an antenna and feedline at a grain storage elevator with a decent antenna height. The other repeater on Channel 17 (600) appears to use different PL tones for input and output. I have never heard anyone else on either repeater.

[coryb27]

Although there is no ID requirement for beginning transmissions for either amateur radio or GMRS, most of us need to do this so others will know who is on the frequency when we first key up. (It is almost a trick question which we have had for decades on the amateur radio exams).

 

The repeater needs to ID via voice or morse ID except:

 

95.1751

 

© Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if:

 

(1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates; and,

 

(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section. 

 

Which could be interpreted that unless the repeater is exclusively used by the individual or family group (who ID's accordingly), it would need to ID via voice or Morse. But it could it be interpreted differently, if you broaden "operating under authority" to mean anyone who gets permission from the owner?

 

In my area of SW Wisconsin, there are several GMRS repeaters that do not ID at any time. We have one on Channel 21 (700) that is very strong and I was able to track down by a former license holder who I have heard re-purposed an antenna and feedline at a grain storage elevator with a decent antenna height. The other repeater on Channel 17 (600) appears to use different PL tones for input and output. I have never heard anyone else on either repeater.

 

 

I live in SW Wisconsin myself (Racine) I own or co operate several machines, 725, 700, 700, 550, 575, 675. Ingleside IL, New Berlin, Madison, Baraboo, Rhinelander and Union Grove. As far as operating under authority, this would imply a GMRS licence under authority of the issuing agency, or plainly the FCC. As such operators are required to ID by Rule of the issued licence. This term is used extensively by the FCC, you can find the definition on there site. I don't set an id on my systems for the simple reason if somebody gets on a repeater and starts breaking rules and jamming it up the last persons ID I want being broadcast is mine. Unless I am forced to by rule change I will never set and ID for this reason. Last reason is simple, its annoying to users on other repeaters sharing the channel to have some ID heterodyning during a conversation.

[Ian]

if there are no other repeaters sharing the channel, and especially if it's a new repeater, I can see the appeal of having the thing ID every fifteen minutes just to announce "Hey, there's an open repeater here!"

 

Given that you seem to operate in a dense environment, that seems unnecessary - you can presume that there's a repeater available.  On the other hand, I live in a coverage gap between three repeaters, and frankly I'm not even sure any of them are still on the air at all.

[coryb27]

Ok so here is two more issues to think about. First most people dont know Morse code, and second most repeaters strip the PL / DPL during ID so unless you are operating open squelch you will never hear it anyway. 

[JohnE]

I don't know about anybody else here but I listen open almost all the time.

my machines ID what they are named, no call.

[Ian]

Corey, an excellent point!  In my wishlist going forward for HTs, I want them to transmit their callsign in a burst of fast Morse when you key up… but also include morse-decoding hardware and a minimal "who's talking now" screen.  It should be trivial to integrate with hardware incorporating Roger beeps, but provide a lot more information.  

 

(It's part of my concept for a new car satnav; the Roger beep at the end of the transmission includes GPS coordinates in some other easily-decoded fashion.  PSK or ASCII might be more efficient, but Morse has such a good heritage…)

 

Why do they strip PL during IDing?  That seems seriously counterproductive…

 

As for most people not understanding Morse, anyone keying up frequently, like one might do while jamming a repeater, would tend these days to get recorded, and said recordings fed into one of the many cheap / free smartphone Morse decoders.

[coryb27]

Corey, an excellent point!  In my wishlist going forward for HTs, I want them to transmit their callsign in a burst of fast Morse when you key up… but also include morse-decoding hardware and a minimal "who's talking now" screen.  It should be trivial to integrate with hardware incorporating Roger beeps, but provide a lot more information.  

 

(It's part of my concept for a new car satnav; the Roger beep at the end of the transmission includes GPS coordinates in some other easily-decoded fashion.  PSK or ASCII might be more efficient, but Morse has such a good heritage…)

 

Why do they strip PL during IDing?  That seems seriously counterproductive…

 

As for most people not understanding Morse, anyone keying up frequently, like one might do while jamming a repeater, would tend these days to get recorded, and said recordings fed into one of the many cheap / free smartphone Morse decoders.

 

As far as location its being done but as far as I know does not work on repeaters. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/533999

 

If you keyed up on my system with some rapid morse code every transmission I would give you the boot, I have no tolerance for Rodger beeps, fleet sync, etc. Lots of people use MDC to send unit numbers, around here we send the last 3 numbers of our gmrs call. Some groups send assigned unit numbers etc.. If you set your radio to decode MDC its silent and just displays it on the radio.

 

PL is stripped so the users don't have to hear it. Commercial repeaters ID every 15 min. Can you imagine having to hear that for 8 hours a day. 

[Elkhunter521]

Wow Corey, are you always so GRUMPY?

[coryb27]

Wow Corey, are you always so GRUMPY?

 

 

I'm not grumpy at all, in fact i am a rather cheerful guy

[Elkhunter521]

Hmmmmmmm, well maybe I'm mistaken.

[JohnE]

 

If you keyed up on my system with some rapid morse code every transmission I would give you the boot, I have no tolerance for Rodger beeps, fleet sync, etc.

agreed.too many yrs in PS and commercial radio to put up w/that.

I also have no tolerance for all that noise. I have asked people to knock down the premble on their MDC b/c some guy thinks its cool, not.

the only reason there is a "roger" beep on my machines is for my wife to know when the machine drops. hang time is 1.2 sec + 250 Ms beep.

[Ian]

As far as location its being done but as far as I know does not work on repeaters. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/533999

 

If you keyed up on my system with some rapid morse code every transmission I would give you the boot, I have no tolerance for Rodger beeps, fleet sync, etc. Lots of people use MDC to send unit numbers, around here we send the last 3 numbers of our gmrs call. Some groups send assigned unit numbers etc.. If you set your radio to decode MDC its silent and just displays it on the radio.

 

PL is stripped so the users don't have to hear it. Commercial repeaters ID every 15 min. Can you imagine having to hear that for 8 hours a day. 

 

 

Is the Rino repeater capable?  All signs (and the manual) point to yes!  This may be the most powerful fully-capable handheld GMRS radio on the market.

 

I never realized people (who weren't birdwatching) might be put off by Roger beeps &c.  I don't mean to be deliberately obtuse, but may I ask why you'd be upset by those?  Also, what's MDC?

[coryb27]

I did not see anything about the Rino being able to use a repeater but i was not looking vary hard. I think the Rino has a great feature set for its intended market and for the right group or setting.

 

I don't know of anybody into radio that likes Rodger Beeps or listening to Morse ID'er tones unless its CW on HAM.

 

As far as MDC I can't explain it any better then it has been, enjoy this great explanation free from Wikipedia!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDC-1200

[berkinet]

I did not see anything about the Rino being able to use a repeater but i was not looking vary hard.

 

 

From the Rino 700 User Manual...

Repeater Channels

This device can use GMRS repeater channels in the US, and CBRS/PRS repeater channels in Australia and New Zealand. GMRS repeater channels are not available in Canada. Repeater channels use repeaters, when available, to enable communication around obstacles or increase transmission distance. Position reporting is not allowed by the FCC on GMRS repeater channels.

 

The 600 series manual also says it supports repeaters

[WRUU850]

On 3/20/2019 at 9:28 AM, coryb27 said:

No the repeater is not required to ID, however the user is required under rule. This has been discussed many times on this site.

Forgive me for bringing up this old thread, but how are you reaching this conclusion?  95.1751 C seems crystal clear on the matter and indicates repeater MUST id unless used EXCLUSIVELY for the owner's license AND those people id correctly...
 

[wrci350]

4 hours ago, WRUU850 said:

Forgive me for bringing up this old thread, but how are you reaching this conclusion?  95.1751 C seems crystal clear on the matter and indicates repeater MUST id unless used EXCLUSIVELY for the owner's license AND those people id correctly...
 

I'm going to say again what I said yesterday in another thread.

There's "what the rules say".

There's "what people THINK the rules say".

And there's "what people think the rules SHOULD say".

You are looking at the first.  Others, not so much.

[Adamdaj]

I know that I have read the current FCC part 95 E rules and regulations and tried to comprehend them. However, I may have misinterpreted the rules for repeaters. According to FCC part 95 E rules and regulations, GMRS Repeaters aren't required to ID, but as far as individual licensees and their family members must ID at the First and Last Transmission and ever 15 minutes during a conversation or QSO. 

 

Speaking of individual licensees and their family members Identification. I have monitored the LEARN 462.575 repeater and I have noticed that only a few members ID as required by the FCC. However, the majority of LEARN membership just use their unit number, such as unit 822.  If Amateur Radio Operators did this, the OOs would  have a field day sending reports to the FCC and possibly Fox Hunting.

 

[WRUU653]

10 minutes ago, Adamdaj said:

GMRS Repeaters aren't required to ID

Incorrect. They are not required to ID if it’s only being used by people under the same license (family) and they identity with that call sign. That’s it, in all other scenarios the repeater must identify  as far as the FCC rules are concerned. 

c) Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if: 

(1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates; and, 

(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section. 

 

[Adamdaj]

2 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

Incorrect. They are not required to ID if it’s only being used by people under the same license (family) and they identity with that call sign. That’s it, in all other scenarios the repeater must identify  as far as the FCC rules are concerned. 

c) Any GMRS repeater station is not required to transmit station identification if: 

(1) It retransmits only communications from GMRS stations operating under authority of the individual license under which it operates; and, 

(2) The GMRS stations whose communications are retransmitted are properly identified in accordance with this section. 

 

So, I wasn't incorrect at all. Repeaters aren't required to Identify, so I don't think know what you meant saying that was incorrect. As far as I, I had everything correct. Maybe I didn't worded as the FCC has it, but I wasn't wrong.  Then again, I may have made a mistake with the Family Members using the license, but Everything was correct.

[KAF6045]

1 hour ago, Adamdaj said:

So, I wasn't incorrect at all. Repeaters aren't required to Identify, so I don't think know what you meant saying that was incorrect. As far as I, I had everything correct. Maybe I didn't worded as the FCC has it, but I wasn't wrong.  Then again, I may have made a mistake with the Family Members using the license, but Everything was correct.

No... ALL Stations MUST ID -- a repeater is a station.

There is an specific EXCLUSION for what is a private/family-only repeater, since the repeater ID would be identical to the ID used by all family members (that of the license holder).

Quote

§ 95.1751 GMRS station identification.

Each GMRS station must be identified by transmission of its FCC-assigned call sign at the end of transmissions and at periodic intervals during transmissions except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section. A unit number may be included after the call sign in the identification.

Paragraph (c) was quoted previously.

[WRUU653]

3 hours ago, Adamdaj said:

So, I wasn't incorrect at all. Repeaters aren't required to Identify, so I don't think know what you meant saying that was incorrect. As far as I, I had everything correct. Maybe I didn't worded as the FCC has it, but I wasn't wrong.  Then again, I may have made a mistake with the Family Members using the license, but Everything was correct

Repeaters are required to identify. You have to read the whole thing. You do see where it says “if” don’t you?  You can’t decide to stop reading something in its entirety and glean only the meaning you want. I mean you can but you’re still incorrect.