GMRS Repeaters for Emergency Communications Use

[KG5UWF]

Trying to clarify if it is acceptable to the FCC based on recent rules changes for a primarily Amateur Radio based club / organization (which also has many CERT, ARES and RACES approved members) to have a GMRS repeater in their equipment mix that could be used (under the club call sign?) and by it's individually GMRS licensed members and general community for emergency communications - is this OK?

How about a CERT organization, establishing communications support in a Fire Rescue shared communications facility, if all users are GMRS licensed?

[SteveShannon]

A GMRS repeater may only be operated under a GMRS license.  A ham club certainly could collocate a GMRS repeater at their repeater site, but it would have to have a GMRS call sign reflecting its operator’s GMRS license.

[mbrun]

@KG5UV , I agree with Sshannon. Amateur Radio and GMRS are separate services. Each service requires its own license. While clubs can be issued callsigns by the FCC in the amateur service, new GMRS license can only be issued to an individual. There is nothing to say that the club cannot purchase and put up the repeater, but it would need to be operated under the authority of one individual’s licensee. That could be the club’s trustee or another board member; perhaps another member that has full access to the repeater site. If at any point the GMRS licensee dies or decides they no longer want the liability, another person would need to step up, volunteer their callsign, and assume the liability. Callsigns are not transferrable.

BTW, LCARA has a series of YouTube videos regarding putting up a GMRS repeater at their club tower site. Perhaps you could reach out to them to see how they have decided to handle it.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[SteveC7010]

Fully agree…. GMRS requires GMRS license. Amateur requires amateur license. 
 

The fact that the equipment is planned in advance gives added weight for the need for proper licensing. 

[WROZ250]

6 hours ago, Sshannon said:

A GMRS repeater may only be operated under a GMRS license.  A ham club certainly could collocate a GMRS repeater at their repeater site, but it would have to have a GMRS call sign reflecting its operator’s GMRS license.

There is no such thing as a club license in GMRS, only individuals may hold a license.

[SteveShannon]

1 minute ago, WROZ250 said:

There is no such thing as a club license in GMRS, only individuals may hold a license.

I agree, but I didn’t say anything about a club GMRS license.  

[WROZ250]

15 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

I agree, but I didn’t say anything about a club GMRS license.  

Right, Sorry. 

It was the OP who asked about club callsign (or at least inferred the idea of operating under a club call).

 

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WROZ250 said:

Right, Sorry. 

It was the OP who asked about club callsign (or at least inferred the idea of operating under a club call).

 

Ahh, thanks.  I understand now.

[PACNWComms]

In my area Community Emergency Response Teams host a GMRs repeater, to be used by families in the area, that have been instructed in using FRS/GMRS or post-2017 GMRS only radios, on their own licenses. CERT made it clear though that users were to use their own call sign and unit number if applicable. This also infers no group or club license option.

It was also noticed at my State's Emergency Management Department radio rooms that there was a Bridgecom GMRS repeater, supporting Auxiliary Communications Service.....however, I am not aware of how they operate license wise. 

[gortex2]

I had setup one years ago for our SAR team, until group licenses where dropped. At that time we moved to VHF to meet the industry standard. We still have the site and repeater on the air but only licensed users are allowed on it. We mainly left it as it was at a county park and was used by others on the park.

 

[DONE]

Now all that being said.  GMRS and Ham licenses are BOTH going to be 35 dollars and last 10 years at this point. 

So the SAR / CERT groups that are pushing folks to get ham licenses could just as easily push their members to get a GMRS license that requires no testing.

Ham radio is great for what it is.  It's a fun hobby.  The problem with ham radio and CERT / SAR operations is they typically want to rely on other peoples infrastructure.  ANd that can work if that infrastructure is installed and maintained at a high level.  Problem is that it's not always that way and it can become a single point of failure for communications.  And I am not saying that a GMRS repeater is somehow more technologically advanced than a ham repeater, but if you as a group have a GMRS repeater, YOU as a group are going to be the ones maintaining it. 

And while this may 'hurt' ham radio if CERT / SAR folks go the route of GMRS, if that was their only motivation to get a ham license, then what were they bringing to ham radio to begin with?

 

[WRQD721]

On 2/12/2022 at 4:34 PM, WROZ250 said:

There is no such thing as a club license in GMRS, only individuals may hold a license.

And a "club" call means nothing to an Amateur repeater. It must still come under the control of an individual, the repeater trustee. And the "club" call is usually that of the trustee.

 

[WQAI363]

On 2/12/2022 at 10:00 AM, KG5UWF said:

Trying to clarify if it is acceptable to the FCC based on recent rules changes for a primarily Amateur Radio based club / organization (which also has many CERT, ARES and RACES approved members) to have a GMRS repeater in their equipment mix that could be used (under the club call sign?) and by it's individually GMRS licensed members and general community for emergency communications - is this OK?

How about a CERT organization, establishing communications support in a Fire Rescue shared communications facility, if all users are GMRS licensed?

Back in 1993 the Town Watch group that I was member of, switched from CB radio to GMRS. At that time only two of our members had GMRS licenses. The rest of the members operated under those licenses until we moved to a LMR system. We continued to use the same radios with new ones added to fleet. but I guess the FCC did or still does make an exception for community emergency volunteer groups.

[SteveShannon]

4 hours ago, Adamdaj said:

I guess the FCC did or still does make an exception for community emergency volunteer groups.

Perhaps the terms of a grandfathered license allow multiple people to operate under a business’s license, but that’s no longer possible for new licenses. Nor is there an exception for community emergency volunteer groups. Unless it’s covered as part of a grandfathered license it’s just not allowed. 

[UpperBucks]

This is some great conversation. I think that the GMRS license holder  = individual is a giant PITA for anyone who is trying to establish some kind of "Minimal infrastructure" (MI) "Bring Your Own Device" (BYOD) emergency communications system.   It really would make so much more sense for a CERT-like organization to hold the licenses for a repeater. 

 

[gortex2]

1 hour ago, UpperBucks said:

This is some great conversation. I think that the GMRS license holder  = individual is a giant PITA for anyone who is trying to establish some kind of "Minimal infrastructure" (MI) "Bring Your Own Device" (BYOD) emergency communications system.   It really would make so much more sense for a CERT-like organization to hold the licenses for a repeater. 

They can but they need to license a business channel. Otehrwise everyone needs a license. No way around it. 

[KAF6045]

10 hours ago, gortex2 said:

They can but they need to license a business channel. Otehrwise everyone needs a license. No way around it. 

Which means NOT GMRS; but LMR/part-90 gear.

[gortex2]

Correct. Or they all license GMRS. Its pretty simple. 

[PACNWComms]

Working for a local AuxComm/Emcomm type of organization, I still bring out my Part-90 Motorola Astro Spectra series repeater at times. It is the briefcase/suitcase style that has held up well for portable use. Great unit that could be had fairly cheap when I bought it, but now see them creeping up in price online once again as interest in GMRS grows (queue the Part-95/90 argument). 

Another option are the GR series desktop repeaters that I have been seeing re-tooled for current use with newer radios replacing the Radius based ones. These appear to be used often for CERT, but they are owned operated by individuals, so GMRS license holders use them with their call sign. 

[SteveShannon]

3 hours ago, gortex2 said:

Correct. Or they all license GMRS. Its pretty simple. 

Exactly right.  There’s little to gain by trying to make GMRS something it isn’t.

[UpperBucks]

On 1/17/2023 at 1:50 PM, gortex2 said:

They can but they need to license a business channel. Otehrwise everyone needs a license. No way around it. 

That's a shame, honestly, given the simplicity of the GMRS channelized approach, the relatively low cost of equipment, and the range of possibilities for community preparedness and incident management, especially in places/at times where cell service is bad or non-existent.

[SteveShannon]

42 minutes ago, UpperBucks said:

That's a shame, honestly, given the simplicity of the GMRS channelized approach, the relatively low cost of equipment, and the range of possibilities for community preparedness and incident management, especially in places/at times where cell service is bad or non-existent.

If GMRS radios becomes an expected link in the chain of emergency responses, there will be calls for higher quality equipment and a need for higher reliability for repeaters (redundant power supplies, voting systems, etc.)  This would lead to more regulation and higher cost equipment.  It's a matter of being careful what you wish for.

[Lscott]

5 hours ago, Sshannon said:

If GMRS radios becomes an expected link in the chain of emergency responses, there will be calls for higher quality equipment and a need for higher reliability for repeaters (redundant power supplies, voting systems, etc.)  This would lead to more regulation and higher cost equipment.  It's a matter of being careful what you wish for.

You find out real quick just how serious people are about it when the repeater owner starts asking for money from the users to pay for it all. Not surprisingly most of the interest fades fast at that point.

[gortex2]

That's exactly the issue. I have one site that I pay for power at as well as tower space. No one mails me a check to say here ya go. Many folks dont understand the monthly cost for a good repeater location. That's why I closed mine after some time. If you want to help fund it I'm all for others using it but its my hard earned cash I use to build, maintain it. 

[MichaelLAX]

23 minutes ago, gortex2 said:

That's exactly the issue. I have one site that I pay for power at as well as tower space. No one mails me a check to say here ya go. Many folks dont understand the monthly cost for a good repeater location. That's why I closed mine after some time. If you want to help fund it I'm all for others using it but its my hard earned cash I use to build, maintain it. 

So your family members won't contribute to your repeater expenses?!?