Thinking of having a traveling repeater

[WRQY383]

I am looking into and thinking about building a repeater when I go camping with my family. It will be set up in a travel trailer.  Just trying to figure out what would be the best way to build such a unit. 

[SteveShannon]

11 minutes ago, WRQY383 said:

I am looking into and thinking about building a repeater when I go camping with my family. It will be set up in a travel trailer.  Just trying to figure out what would be the best way to build such a unit. 

This is a very good use for the Retevis RT-97, which is an all in one repeater and duplexer. Add an antenna and cable and you have a small low power repeater. 

[OffRoaderX]

2nd the RT-97.. Its portable, light, small, rugged, and it works great

[WRQY383]

40 minutes ago, OffRoaderX said:

2nd the RT-97.. Its portable, light, small, rugged, and it works great

I will look it up. Just starting to look into this, most likely will not have VOiP, more just for the family when at campsites and maybe some other places. 

[SteveShannon]

There are some special packages almost all the time. Right now there are three different bundles where you get two handheld radios for no extra charge. 
https://www.retevis.com/rt97-long-range-full-duplex-mini-portable-repeater-promotion

I have no connection to them and couldn’t tell you which package would be better for you. 

[WRQY383]

4 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

There are some special packages almost all the time. Right now there are three different bundles where you get two handheld radios for no extra charge. 
https://www.retevis.com/rt97-long-range-full-duplex-mini-portable-repeater-promotion

I have no connection to them and couldn’t tell you which package would be better for you. 

Thank you for the information. Just bought my first radio and well when I do this I will be getting some kid friendly ones and two others

[KAF6045]

36 minutes ago, WRQY383 said:

Thank you for the information. Just bought my first radio and well when I do this I will be getting some kid friendly ones and two others

If by "kid friendly" you mean something of the type sold in "bubble packs" -- take note that true FRS (what you most likely will find in local stores) do NOT do repeaters. Not even all GMRS bubble packs (if you find them) do repeaters. Granted, my information is a bit old, from units predating the 2017 reorganization of FRS vs GMRS. I have a pair of Midland units that reclassified as GMRS due to having three power levels, with the highest breaking the new 2W FRS limit, but does not do repeaters. I also have a pair of Motorola bubble pack which reclassified as GMRS because they DO have repeater mode.

That Retevis sale looks intriguing -- but I've already spent nearly $2000 on radio gear in the last few months (BTech GMRS-V2, Icom ID52A, Icom ID-5100A -- and the ton of support/options needed to fit that into my rust bucket [come on... a 9ft power cable, but an 11 ft control head cable? It's 17 feet from where the box is mounted to the battery!, and 15 feet to where the control head is mounted]).

Of the bundles -- the RB23 might qualify as the kid-friendly pair; water resistant, no front-panel programming -- configure them using computer software (set time-out timer so they don't just sit with PTT pressed and make noise at them -- you will have to change the channels to wide, the factory default is narrow (FRS compatible), and probably remove CTCSS tones from the basic channels; set desired tone for the repeater config/channel). The only thing they can do is change the channel, whatever you program the side button as [Monitor?], and PTT.

I'd probably pick the RA85 bundle. That model provides 30 additional "channel" slots into which one could program multiple repeaters with their CTCSS tones, even if they are using the same frequency pair. Nicer than having to carry a listing of repeater/tone around and manually changing configuration via front panel. Three power levels. Still has the problem that factory setting is NFM, not (W)FM, and they filled all channel slots with variations of CTCSS and DCS combinations -- I'd clear the tones, set all to FM, and clear out 31-60 unless I have known repeaters to put in.

The RB17 combo may be a bit perplexing for entry level... dual watch, front panel programming via a limited number of buttons. And Retevis NFM/tone combos preset... So I'd be clearing those out. I suspect these radios are designed primarily for Part 90 Land Mobile use which is probably mandated to be NFM.

[WRQY383]

I found some abbree and baufeng radios that are the same way. I would have to program them and only have The repeater set up in them along with a simplex channel. My youngest two are 2 and 8. So only one would be used right now and the other would be a back up

[Drumbic]

Here is what I did if you don't want to spend the funds on a Reteveis. (Altho if I had a travel trailer the Reteveis with a extendable mass antenna would be my ideal setup.)

 

Now this isn't a epic high power repeater but is self contained and deployable while out camping.  Hoist it into a tree, or set it up on a hill.  It has run a couple days with moderate traffic. Worked decent for when people ventured out from where we camped surrounded by hills.  HT to HT at camp would not hit through the hill. Plopped this little box on the top and was able to bounce up and over the hit back to camp.

 

Its just a Baofeng, Surecom and a HF box with some random connectors.  Runs completely on their own batteries.  As long as you understand the Surecom takes and rebroadcast your transmission and everyone remembers to give a few seconds for the transmission.

Think maybe I am into it around 100 bucks give or take.  

 

[WRFP399]

20 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

2nd the RT-97.. Its portable, light, small, rugged, and it works great

3rd.  I know I have posted this around before...but this is my "throw down" repeater.  It was originally a "proof of concept" for my solar repeater, so it's not the prettiest of construction. 

 

Hike this up a mountain in a backpack..."throw it down"...walk away. Coverage for 15,20, 30 miles depending on height.

[WRQY383]

Both of those set ups look like they would be perfect for my budget. Most of our camping would be either in a campground or a place like that. I do travel to places off the grid and as I can tell there are no repeaters anywhere near where I want to go. A good friend of mine has been a great mentor and well ran this past him. He likes the idea but I will be also possibly making a ham one too

[gortex2]

The RT97 is ideal. Had one in my motorhome and would cover most camp grounds just fine with a decent antenna. The issue with the surecomm simplex repeaters is people understanding how they work and worse if they can hear both conversations. Save up and get the RT

[Drumbic]

15 hours ago, gortex2 said:

The RT97 is ideal. Had one in my motorhome and would cover most camp grounds just fine with a decent antenna. The issue with the surecomm simplex repeaters is people understanding how they work and worse if they can hear both conversations. Save up and get the RT

Agreed with the people understanding the fact YOU ARE GOING TO HEAR YOURSELF... LOL   Once most understood that part, it worked decent.

[TNRonin]

There are some special packages almost all the time. Right now there are three different bundles where you get two handheld radios for no extra charge. 
https://www.retevis.com/rt97-long-range-full-duplex-mini-portable-repeater-promotion
I have no connection to them and couldn’t tell you which package would be better for you. 

So tempting. If I wasn't on a final push to pay the house off. Ugh!!!

Sent from my SM-T860 using Tapatalk

[WRFH675]

I just came across this thread and find this mobile repeater to be really interesting. I'm still a newb at all of this, but I may go ahead and buy the Retevis kit just to set up at the house as a trial run before doing a proper repeater.

If I buy the kit, I still need to buy an antenna and some cable, correct? And that should be it? I'm thinking of placing the antenna in my attic. Would that be fine, or does it make that big of a difference by placing it outside on the roof?

[back4more70]

17 minutes ago, WRFH675 said:

I'm thinking of placing the antenna in my attic.

I'm no engineer, but I would think that outside is better, because one less obstacle (transmitting through the roof), the better.

[SteveShannon]

I am an engineer

When it comes to antennas, everything affects them. A metal roof certainly would. Foil backed insulation between rafters would as well, but usually insulation is between the ceiling joists rather than the rafters unless the attic is heated. 
Even roofing nails can have an effect. 
Attics are also not terribly elevated. 
However, antennas are frequently placed in attics, including a lot of wire dipoles, and they sometimes work well enough. That’s all we need right? Good enough?

Try it. You can always decide to put it outside. 
Note from personal experience: be careful about roofing nails that stick through the sheathing. More than one person has holed his head on them. 

[KAF6045]

15 hours ago, WRFH675 said:

If I buy the kit, I still need to buy an antenna and some cable, correct? And that should be it? I'm thinking of placing the antenna in my attic. Would that be fine, or does it make that big of a difference by placing it outside on the roof?

Yes to antenna, yes to cable. You'll probably also need a suitable mast pipe and mounting brackets to hold the mast.

(Boy, some translations really need work: https://www.amazon.com/UAYESOK-Vertical-390-470MHZ-Connector-Transceiver/dp/B08P58FSCX If one trusts that this one is relatively easy to tune for the band having graduated scales on each half)  https://www.amazon.com/Skywalker-Signature-38in-Pipe-Antenna/dp/B01MSFGZIW (on the light-weight side, in my mind, and not much height)

Outside would be better -- your effective distance will be influenced by the height of the antenna, and given the low power of the repeater. Top end of the roof line, and a 6-10 foot mast... Determine the length of cable you need, and determine how much cable loss you can live with.

https://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/cable/coaxperf.html

The chart assumes a 100ft length, for 50 ft, you can halve the attenuation numbers. Use the 450MHz column (actual will be a tad higher loss, since you are looking at 462/467MHz frequencies). 3dB means HALF your power is sucked up by the cable. For any decent length, you are likely looking at LMR400 or 9913. In contrast, 11m CB could get by with cheap RG-58!

Remember: That repeater does not have a built-in IDer; to be legal it will have to be used only by you and immediate family using your license/call (so set up CTCSS or DCS that is unlikely to be in use in your neighborhood/frequency); that way when THEY ID with the call, it covers the repeater too. Others, with different calls, would not count as they are not the repeater licensee.

[WRFH675]

A lot of excellent information there, thanks!

[WRQY383]

4 hours ago, KAF6045 said:

Yes to antenna, yes to cable. You'll probably also need a suitable mast pipe and mounting brackets to hold the mast.

(Boy, some translations really need work: https://www.amazon.com/UAYESOK-Vertical-390-470MHZ-Connector-Transceiver/dp/B08P58FSCX If one trusts that this one is relatively easy to tune for the band having graduated scales on each half)  https://www.amazon.com/Skywalker-Signature-38in-Pipe-Antenna/dp/B01MSFGZIW (on the light-weight side, in my mind, and not much height)

Outside would be better -- your effective distance will be influenced by the height of the antenna, and given the low power of the repeater. Top end of the roof line, and a 6-10 foot mast... Determine the length of cable you need, and determine how much cable loss you can live with.

https://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/cable/coaxperf.html

The chart assumes a 100ft length, for 50 ft, you can halve the attenuation numbers. Use the 450MHz column (actual will be a tad higher loss, since you are looking at 462/467MHz frequencies). 3dB means HALF your power is sucked up by the cable. For any decent length, you are likely looking at LMR400 or 9913. In contrast, 11m CB could get by with cheap RG-58!

Remember: That repeater does not have a built-in IDer; to be legal it will have to be used only by you and immediate family using your license/call (so set up CTCSS or DCS that is unlikely to be in use in your neighborhood/frequency); that way when THEY ID with the call, it covers the repeater too. Others, with different calls, would not count as they are not the repeater licensee.

Thank you for the great information. 
 

like I said at the beginning I am looking at building one, most of the campgrounds I will be taking the family don’t have any repeaters near by or are in range. I cannot even check into the national net from my local repeaters. Hopefully the state of Wisconsin will add grms to the Wiscom system of repeaters. 

[KAF6045]

3 hours ago, WRQY383 said:

like I said at the beginning I am looking at building one, most of the campgrounds I will be taking the family don’t have any repeaters near by or are in range. I cannot even check into the national net from my local repeaters. Hopefully the state of Wisconsin will add grms to the Wiscom system of repeaters. 

"Wiscom"??? Google finds a "WECOMM" system (? Wisconsin Emergency Communications I'm guessing) which is an Amateur Radio linked network. It will never be bridged to GMRS as they are two separate categories, operating under two separate sets of rules (Part 97 vs Part 95 E).

There is a "Wisconsin Association of Repeaters", but that is the organization that coordinates what frequencies Amateur repeaters will use in a given area to avoid conflicts with other repeaters.

I doubt WECOMM will add a separate overlapping GMRS repeater network. Their web page is already asking for donations to maintain the Amateur repeaters -- which were mostly built with "9/11" grant money -- just operating the network is (per their page) $17000 ($1400 per repeater). Parallel GMRS repeaters will no doubt increase operating costs by 50-100%, and that doesn't include the initial purchase of repeater, duplexer, antenna, RF Exposure computations (since they will likely be putting the proposed GMRS repeaters on the same towers as the Amateur gear they need to run multi-emitter RF calculations to determine safe distances around the tower -- 5W gear tends to get away from all that, but for my HF transmitters I have to model the emission pattern of my off-center-fed dipole to ensure the radiation is below limits for "uncontrolled" area [ie: the neighbors, whose 2nd floor bedrooms are about 10ft from the end of my dipole]). LMR-400 coax is over $1/foot, without connectors on the ends (assume 75ft for a 50ft tower to "equipment shack" per repeater - $900 in coax before labor to install connectors).

 

[WRQY383]

Sorry meant WECOMM. There are a lot here in my home city that will not get into ham radio but a lot more are doing GRMS. Our SkyWarn is on GRMS and ham radio. 

[KAF6045]

Minor comment: it is General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS); GRMS is Global Risk Management Solutions

And in some areas, you may find REACT monitoring GMRS besides CB.

 

{addition} There are Amateur groups associated with Red Cross, ARES/RACES -- all associations that require the members to undergo certification and training to partake in... Skywarn is under NWS purview and has its own training sessions.

How many of your GMRS users are willing to consider these conditions:

Quote

• If you’re an individual Emergency Communication volunteer…-

  • You need to be trained. In order to provide support in the event of an emergency—or even in a non-emergency situation—you need to have the proper training and licensing. Learn more about the ARRL Emergency Communications Training course.

  • You need to be equipped with sustaining skills. What if when you get to a location, there is no food and the sleeping conditions are undesirable? Before you leave on your assignment, you need to make sure you have coping skills that enable you to be able to do your job operating under the conditions you are assigned to—from hardship conditions to making sure you’re able to work the equipment.

  • You need to prepare your family for your absence. When you leave home and head for a disaster area, your family has to be both physically and mentally able to cope. After a disaster, when a volunteer comes home, he or she can be confronted by some mental health issues, for which there are several resources. Many volunteers experience everything from fatigue or exhaustion to depression.

  • You need to find ways to volunteer. You would first want to become a member of your local ARES, CERT, RACES or local emergency management organization. Then try the American Red Cross or Web sites like Ready.gov.

ARES and RACES are Amateur only, CERT may not be, nor the local government EOC. But look at the second and third bullets! We aren't talking about a community watch program or holing up on the upper floors of a hotel and making reports on the movement of rioters... We are talking about actual field deployments -- bring a tent and a supply of MREs type activity. CERT requirements are based on local Civil Defense organization, RACES is an FCC Part 97 services. In all cases, activation comes from above... some government agency -- even SkyWarn is typically at the request of the NWS.

This isn't the purpose originally conceived of for GMRS -- which was intra-family communications in spread out areas (large farms, with a base at the house and mobiles/HTs for those working the fields; the rules used to have a clause that the "immediate family" had to RESIDE in the licensee's household -- that clause has been dropped) or in isolated locales (camping or just living out of normal communication means; no phone, maybe generator for electricity); and for small businesses (these are no longer issued but existing licenses can be renewed). Talking from one licensee to another licensee was a RARE situation (and base stations were prohibited from talking to other base stations)!

 

[TNRonin]

There are some special packages almost all the time. Right now there are three different bundles where you get two handheld radios for no extra charge. 
https://www.retevis.com/rt97-long-range-full-duplex-mini-portable-repeater-promotion
I have no connection to them and couldn’t tell you which package would be better for you. 

That price looses some of it's luster when you do the shipping. Is this normal for them? I picked the next cheapest shipping.

Sent from my SM-T860 using Tapatalk

[OffRoaderX]

I bought mine on Amazon and got free shipping.