Hams on GMRS

[marcspaz]

5 hours ago, WRAM370 said:

 



So perhaps we can all agree that hams and CB’ers are looking at GMRS so they have someone to talk to, and in particular, because they can utilize repeaters to accomplish that goal. The repeater is the primary attraction in this movement towards GMRS.

 

So, with trying to stay on topic to the OP’s original question, I suggest that amateur radio is missing the mark, by not providing the experience for many people who are, or would be, active on radio, where GMRS is providing a resource for these people, but it is my belief that GMRS is not the appropriate venue for this particular activity, due to it’s very limited bandwidth and shared FRS activity.

 

GMRS should be short distance, brief messages that convey information that is of interest to a family or immediate group of licensed people. Amateur radio is for longer distance conversations that include people not related to one another, who enjoy participating in long-winded ragchews.

 

I know the dozens of amateur repeaters in my region sit idle for days/weeks. Unused bandwidth on 2m and 70cm, and from your comments, it is true in your region as well. While the 8 repeater channels available are being used by CBer’s and ex-patriot hams.

 

It is just ridiculous for amateur radio to continue to hold onto old conventions that are literally causing it to lose participants, when we can clearly see the activity interest in GMRS increase, as ham radio interest decreases. And again, it is primarily related to repeater access on GMRS, so here is the simple solution…

 

1) Eliminate the testing requirement for an entry level amateur radio license.

 

2) Establish a license class that authorizes use of 2m and 70cm FM simplex and repeater access available for the price of admission ($35).

 

3) Allow up to 50 watts of transmitter output power (HT and mobile radio operation).

 

This is basically the same as GMRS (with the exception of the VHF access), and if GMRS does not require a license holder to demonstrate any knowledge of operation, than neither should amateur radio, for the same basic operating privileges. Beyond the requirement to identify your station every 10 minutes on the amateur bands, I don’t think there is anything else that a user of 2m or 70cm would need to know, relating to Part 97.

 

Should one want to further their involvement in amateur radio, then the usual process of testing can be followed, to permit the use of higher transmitter power, additional bands and modes of operation. But for amateur radio to try to have a gatekeeper in place for access to some VHF and UHF spectrum, in the form of a 35 question test, is archaic and useless at this point.  And it is only destroying the General Mobile Radio Service in the process.

 

And for the hams that would scream that this idea would destroy amateur radio…as a GMRS user, I am trying to save GMRS from the very situation you have created, so if you think my suggestion is wrong…then GFY. This is exactly what needs to happen, in order to save both amateur radio and GMRS.

 

 

 

 

 

Some of what you mention as far as amateur licenses was already tried and it failed epically, leading to the licensing scheme we have now.

 

Also, I may be so bold as to say that Ham radio operators use GMRS for the same reason anyone without an amateur license would use GMRS. There is no mysterious or hidden agenda. We want to talk to people we know, while using a radio, or have some form of communications when traditional communications is not an option. 

 

For what its worth, the core of the definition of the purpose for GMRS is "a mobile two-way voice communication service... for facilitating activities of individual licensees and their family members". Nothing says it must be used to talk to anyone about anything in particular, for some specific purpose.

 

I think while the dialog is healthy and I like the conversation, I wouldn't support running anyone off because their usage of the service doesn't fit some preconceived notion of what I think they should use the service for.  If anything, I would encourage more people to take advantage of the fact that services are available. Everyone should be familiar with GMRS, FRS, MURS, CB and Amateur Radio. There is no such thing as 'not enough room' to accommodate everyone.

 

Again, just a thought. 

[WRQC527]

I'll throw this thought out there. Every year here in southern California, hikers get lost or hurt in our local mountains. Most of them have no way to communicate, because they think their smart phones will save them. Where we go there is limited or no cell service. My ham friends and I never go out without radios. We have pre-arranged simplex frequencies and repeaters so we know that when 20+ people in our group get spread out on the trail, we can always communicate. If these hikers in distress had any kind of radios, ham, GMRS, MURS, FRS, or even one of these new CB HTs, they would have a much better chance of being located sooner, or possibly not getting lost in the first place. Getting hung up in an endless debate is rather counterproductive. Use whatever services you want. They all have pros and cons, so pick what works best for you and the people you want to communicate with.

[MichaelLAX]

Ham Radio operator uses his satellite mapping skills to save a missing hiker

[Lscott]

8 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

I'll throw this thought out there. Every year here in southern California, hikers get lost or hurt in our local mountains. Most of them have no way to communicate, because they think their smart phones will save them. Where we go there is limited or no cell service. My ham friends and I never go out without radios. We have pre-arranged simplex frequencies and repeaters so we know that when 20+ people in our group get spread out on the trail, we can always communicate. If these hikers in distress had any kind of radios, ham, GMRS, MURS, FRS, or even one of these new CB HTs, they would have a much better chance of being located sooner, or possibly not getting lost in the first place. Getting hung up in an endless debate is rather counterproductive. Use whatever services you want. They all have pros and cons, so pick what works best for you and the people you want to communicate with.

Some have recommended carrying a SAT phone.

[WRQC527]

Yes, SAT phones are an excellent option. A little pricy to buy, but they can be rented for short-term use if I remember correctly.

[UncleYoda]

15 hours ago, markskjerve said:

User knowledge isn't really required on GMRS but it gets a bit more complicated on 2m/70cm.

If user knowledge is not required, then why are the GMRS regs worded so intricately that they are very difficult to decipher the intent behind the words.  And I'd guess more than half of the users are violating the regs.  I agree the radios aren't hard to use, but it is still easy to use them in a way that's not allowed.

[marcspaz]

17 minutes ago, UncleYoda said:

If user knowledge is not required, then why are the GMRS regs worded so intricately that they are very difficult to decipher the intent behind the words.  And I'd guess more than half of the users are violating the regs.  I agree the radios aren't hard to use, but it is still easy to use them in a way that's not allowed.

 

Because they were written by bureaucrat lawyers, not 'normal' people.  LOL

[Lscott]

Just like everything else they do. Have to keep the starving lawyers employed.

[WRQC527]

I would say that user knowledge is required from a standpoint of how much power can be used on various frequencies, antenna height, identifying by call sign, usage rules (business vs personal, etc), who is covered by a license, etc. Not that everyone goes by all the rules, but by having a GMRS license, you have entered into an agreement with the FCC that you at least know the rules.

[SteveShannon]

7 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

I would say that user knowledge is required from a standpoint of how much power can be used on various frequencies, antenna height, identifying by call sign, usage rules (business vs personal, etc), who is covered by a license, etc. Not that everyone goes by all the rules, but by having a GMRS license, you have entered into an agreement with the FCC that you at least know the rules.

Exactly- you don’t (and shouldn’t) need a bunch of radio theory to use GMRS, but you have agreed to follow the rules (cryptically written though they may be) so a licensee needs to know and understand them.

[KAF6045]

13 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

even one of these new CB HTs

Pardon? I've owned CB HTs since the 1970s... And still have RatShack and Midland units sitting on a bookshelf.

[gortex2]

20 hours ago, WRAM370 said:

 

 The repeater is the primary attraction in this movement towards GMRS.

 

Why is this the case. Repeaters have been permitted since its inception. 

Ham radio has repeaters and many at that that never get used. 

The more I think about it maybe I'll just throw a 70cm repeater on the air and use P25 to keep it quiet

[tweiss3]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

Exactly- you don’t (and shouldn’t) need a bunch of radio theory to use GMRS, but you have agreed to follow the rules (cryptically written though they may be) so a licensee needs to know and understand them.

Correct, being that the exact allowed frequencies/bandwidths and power levels are directly outlined, it's must simpler than amateur radio. The point of the Part 95 rules for type acceptance is so that the average joe can buy the license and purchase an off the shelf radio and be within the rules.

While the concepts are identical between ham 70cm and GMRS, there is more responsibility on the operator in amateur radio. This includes coordination of repeaters/operating frequencies as well as RF exposure evaluations. The idea of GMRS is that frequencies are not overlapping/spaced too closely, and the FCC has already done the RF exposure evaluation in a general sense. Not saying there won't be someone trying to use a 45w mobile with antenna attached directly to the radio placed 4' from the user, but they did a good job simplifying it.

[WRQC527]

15 minutes ago, KAF6045 said:

Pardon? I've owned CB HTs since the 1970s... And still have RatShack and Midland units sitting on a bookshelf.

Lol ya I should have clarified, because I had one too. There's a new crop of AM/FM CB HTs from President and Wouxun, and probably other clones. 

[flashover52]

A whole family can get i to GMRS with a single license that doesn’t need a test. My family would not touch the amateur side of radio but GMRS and jumping onto a repeater if needed is much easier for my family. I know many hams that got their GMRS license simply for this reason. (Well, maybe it helped justify buying new radios for the family…..)

[marcspaz]

9 hours ago, gortex2 said:

The more I think about it maybe I'll just throw a 70cm repeater on the air and use P25 to keep it quiet

 

Around here, that seems to be what I hear the most.  Well, Wires-X / C4FM and DMR.  There are three 70cm repeaters near me with America Link on 24/7.  Not much analog voice traffic unless a club 2m repeater goes down and they slide to 440 as a backup.

 

Me personally, 99% of my 70cm use is for cross-band repeat from my HT through my mobile.  Makes life way easier when I hop out of the Jeep.

[axorlov]

10 hours ago, gortex2 said:

The more I think about it maybe I'll just throw a 70cm repeater on the air and use P25 to keep it quiet

And where I am, you would not need P25 to keep it quiet. You just put it on air and it will stay quiet all by itself!

In some areas 70cm mountain-top repeaters are shuttered by missile defense, the PAVE PAWS radars. This is the case in SF Bay Area, 70cm repeaters went quiet about 15 years ago. Not so in LA area, where are plenty of active 70cm repeaters.

[marcspaz]

That sucks.

[wayoverthere]

46 minutes ago, axorlov said:

And where I am, you would not need P25 to keep it quiet. You just put it on air and it will stay quiet all by itself!

In some areas 70cm mountain-top repeaters are shuttered by missile defense, the PAVE PAWS radars. This is the case in SF Bay Area, 70cm repeaters went quiet about 15 years ago. Not so in LA area, where are plenty of active 70cm repeaters.

Or Carla #6 and Carla #36, operating at 1 watt 

http://www.carlaradio.net/thesystem/systemdetail.php?sysid=06

http://www.carlaradio.net/thesystem/systemdetail.php?sysid=36

[axorlov]

4 minutes ago, wayoverthere said:

Or Carla #6 and Carla #36, operating at 1 watt

Yes. And there are still some in Bay Area proper too, on low power. Sunol Ridge repeater W6SRR is actually heard well across the bay and in the Livermore-Amador valley, but it is quiet. Their 2m machine is very much active, 70cm is not so. Some years ago I used it to chat with my friends from Fremont and Livermore. It felt like a private intercom, no one ever joined. WW6BAY linked repeaters (BAY NET) are fairly active, but it's because their 70cm is liked to their 2m.

[wayoverthere]

18 minutes ago, axorlov said:

Sunol Ridge repeater W6SRR is actually heard well across the bay and in the Livermore-Amador valley, but it is quiet. Their 2m machine is very much active, 70cm is not so. Some years ago I used it to chat with my friends from Fremont and Livermore. It felt like a private intercom, no one ever joined. WW6BAY linked repeaters (BAY NET) are fairly active, but it's because their 70cm is liked to their 2m.

I'll have to remember those for next time I'm up that way....didn't get much chance to play radio the last time, but didn't catch much on the handheld in Walnut Creek. 

Poking at the CARLA page I noticed they're now linking with SCARA as well to cover some of the further north parts with VHF.

[WRTT642]

Early January 2022 here in Alaska we had a horrible winter storm that knocked out power to thousands as well as cell service to some, I lost heat, power, and cell service in my area for 3 days and I was completely unprepared. I have four children my youngest was 10 months old at the time. After that happened I promised myself I will never let that happen again. I then stared going down the "prepper" road and doing research on the subject. This is when I first learned about GMRS. 

When I Youtubed GMRS the first video to pop up was NOTARUBICON and his videos on GMRS. I took it all in and began taking the steps to get my license. I then watched a video with him and Josh at HAM RADIO CRASH COURSE talking about GMRS and Amateur radio. Then I found Jason at HAMRADIO 2.0 along with this website and ARRL and Radio Reference etc. 

The biggest thing that drew me into Randy, Josh, and Jason was that I could identify with all three in them as far as age, family/young children, similar interest, and their ability to explain everything rather simply and with some comedic relief. I have now since received my tech license (KL5LD) and I give full credit to Josh and Jason because their YouTube channels and the information they provided helped me tremendously in passing my test as well as taking a class with Bob Phinney over at New England Sci-Tech, Thanks again Bob (K5TEC)!

I now have both GMRS and amateur radios that I use everyday, and I enjoy using both. With family it is mostly GMRS, while my kids are studying for their tech license and I for my general and with ham it is mostly for the entertainment of listening to all the old timers gripe at each other over ALLSTAR LINK on the the east coast repeater, it is quite hilarious to me personally (I'm just kidding guys), but there are also some really solid guys out here in Alaska that I have met over ham and they have been extremely kind and helpful in so many ways I couldn't even begin to list them. Heck, just a couple weeks ago my family and I got invited to a local clubs pot luck and gift exchange for Christmas when I was trying to find info during another horrible winter storm we just had before Christmas(It was pretty bad)! Yet, when I have talked to people over GMRS it is pretty straight forward, kinda like having a conversation with somebody in person. I'm going to be honest and say that I have been meeting more and more people in my area that have GMRS radios and they just use them. No license, no call signs, no codes or other things of that sort. It is just people out and about enjoying the great outdoors and using their radios as a means to communicate because there are many areas within our state where there is very shotty cell reception if at all and using these radios are literally life savers for people. 

This past September I went Moose hunting with my son and we ran across a bunch of guys using GMRS radios and when talking with them I would bring up the whole license issue and they all just laughed at me as if that was actually a thing. I guess up here in Alaska a lot of people just have a different mentality about how they utilize this tool. Everybody gets along great with no issues that I have ever heard of and it seems to be a growing "hobby" for us up here with new repeaters popping up, which is great!

Sorry for the long winded comment, but with all that being said I guess it is different in each region and how people are using GMRS and ham. Down in the states you guys seem to be using it for, well, the reasons you have stated, but up here in Alaska, in what I have seen and experienced, we are not using it as simply a "hobby" (this is not to say you guys are "just" using it for the same reason) to meet new friends, I feel it is much more than that, it is literally a life line. It is a way for us to stay connected to each other during our rough winters when the power goes out and its -20 outside, it is a way to communicate while out in the bush chasing down a 1,200 lbs moose to fill our freezers for the year, it is a way to tell the guy further down the river to get ready, the salmon are coming, it is a way to tell our family and friends to watch for that bear out in the tree line with her cubs while out picking blueberries, from what I have seen up here in the Great North it is much much more. And who am I to tell anybody how to use their radios? I'm just another voice over the waves. To each their own. Be safe and respectful, have fun, and watch your six.     

[bd348]

I heard similar while passing through some rural Virginia mountains.  Just below the interstate was a small town in a valley, and the radio started picking up neighbors just chatting and saying hi to each other.  As you say, a great way to stay in touch during the dark days of winter.

The linked net repeaters are very big on call signs and such, which doesn't really get in the way.  Sounds like a certain number of regional friends hanging out all the time.  The net might get 100+ check-ins.  The unlinked local repeaters are local friends, maybe 10 check-ins when they do their own net.  Same people all the time, but a lot of newcomers as well.

At least in the midwest, GMRS seems like friendly-ish CB.

[Lscott]

20 hours ago, gortex2 said:

The more I think about it maybe I'll just throw a 70cm repeater on the air and use P25 to keep it quiet

Put up a 33cm one. Almost nobody has equipment for that band. I got a very clean looking used Motorola XPR6580 that does about 2.5 watts on that band. Good for FM and Mototurbo (DMR).

There are instruction on the Internet on how to do an in-memory edit on CPS 16 to enter frequencies between 902 MHz and 928 MHz. No radio hardware modifications required! Only pitfall is you can't read out the radio contents without the CPS setting them back to default values. You always have to use the computer saved copy of the code plug, no big deal.

Oh, I have a couple of TK-5320's so I could use that P25 repeater.

[SteveShannon]

3 hours ago, WRTT642 said:

Early January 2022 here in Alaska we had a horrible winter storm that knocked out power to thousands as well as cell service to some, I lost heat, power, and cell service in my area for 3 days and I was completely unprepared. I have four children my youngest was 10 months old at the time. After that happened I promised myself I will never let that happen again. I then stared going down the "prepper" road and doing research on the subject. This is when I first learned about GMRS. 

When I Youtubed GMRS the first video to pop up was NOTARUBICON and his videos on GMRS. I took it all in and began taking the steps to get my license. I then watched a video with him and Josh at HAM RADIO CRASH COURSE talking about GMRS and Amateur radio. Then I found Jason at HAMRADIO 2.0 along with this website and ARRL and Radio Reference etc. 

The biggest thing that drew me into Randy, Josh, and Jason was that I could identify with all three in them as far as age, family/young children, similar interest, and their ability to explain everything rather simply and with some comedic relief. I have now since received my tech license (KL5LD) and I give full credit to Josh and Jason because their YouTube channels and the information they provided helped me tremendously in passing my test as well as taking a class with Bob Phinney over at New England Sci-Tech, Thanks again Bob (K5TEC)!

I now have both GMRS and amateur radios that I use everyday, and I enjoy using both. With family it is mostly GMRS, while my kids are studying for their tech license and I for my general and with ham it is mostly for the entertainment of listening to all the old timers gripe at each other over ALLSTAR LINK on the the east coast repeater, it is quite hilarious to me personally (I'm just kidding guys), but there are also some really solid guys out here in Alaska that I have met over ham and they have been extremely kind and helpful in so many ways I couldn't even begin to list them. Heck, just a couple weeks ago my family and I got invited to a local clubs pot luck and gift exchange for Christmas when I was trying to find info during another horrible winter storm we just had before Christmas(It was pretty bad)! Yet, when I have talked to people over GMRS it is pretty straight forward, kinda like having a conversation with somebody in person. I'm going to be honest and say that I have been meeting more and more people in my area that have GMRS radios and they just use them. No license, no call signs, no codes or other things of that sort. It is just people out and about enjoying the great outdoors and using their radios as a means to communicate because there are many areas within our state where there is very shotty cell reception if at all and using these radios are literally life savers for people. 

This past September I went Moose hunting with my son and we ran across a bunch of guys using GMRS radios and when talking with them I would bring up the whole license issue and they all just laughed at me as if that was actually a thing. I guess up here in Alaska a lot of people just have a different mentality about how they utilize this tool. Everybody gets along great with no issues that I have ever heard of and it seems to be a growing "hobby" for us up here with new repeaters popping up, which is great!

Sorry for the long winded comment, but with all that being said I guess it is different in each region and how people are using GMRS and ham. Down in the states you guys seem to be using it for, well, the reasons you have stated, but up here in Alaska, in what I have seen and experienced, we are not using it as simply a "hobby" (this is not to say you guys are "just" using it for the same reason) to meet new friends, I feel it is much more than that, it is literally a life line. It is a way for us to stay connected to each other during our rough winters when the power goes out and its -20 outside, it is a way to communicate while out in the bush chasing down a 1,200 lbs moose to fill our freezers for the year, it is a way to tell the guy further down the river to get ready, the salmon are coming, it is a way to tell our family and friends to watch for that bear out in the tree line with her cubs while out picking blueberries, from what I have seen up here in the Great North it is much much more. And who am I to tell anybody how to use their radios? I'm just another voice over the waves. To each their own. Be safe and respectful, have fun, and watch your six.     

Even though this is the first post I’ve read today, I’m unable to “react” with a like emoji, so I want to say this is an absolutely excellent post!  

As far as licensing goes, that’s how it is here in Montana as well.  I’m literally the first person I’ve met in Montana with a license. I requested an FRN many years ago (pre 2005 I think because it was before my job change) for the purpose of obtaining a GMRS license, but then the FCC said they were going to request to make GMRS licenses free.  So, I thought I’d wait.  I and everyone I know who owns GMRS radios have been using them ever since without licensing, until I decided to get legitimate in 2021.

None of the people I speak to using my GMRS radio have a license and most of them couldn’t even describe the licensing process.  Our usage of GMRS radios happens entirely at our monthly rocket launches so we can keep in touch if we need to. We don’t have conversations on the radio. We have conversations while we’re sitting together, but when we’re recovering a rocket the radios allow us to check on each other, or to offer suggestions “I think it was more east than that!”  

Most of us went to an outdoor sporting goods store and bought a Garmin Rino for the mapping ability.  When we’re walking around in the hills looking for our own rocket we appear on each other’s maps screens, at least the last known location.  We may only speak on the radio for a few seconds once a month, but those few seconds are important to recovering rockets that might be worth thousands of dollars.  Having radios also allows us to react in case one of us has a medical emergency.  Many of us are in our fifties, sixties, or seventies (some are even older) and hiking up and down rock strewn hills stresses the human body. Plus, it’s easy to get turned around on an overcast day.

We don’t use networks or repeaters and we never ever hear anyone else on the channel we’ve agreed upon.  I have toyed with the idea of setting up a portable repeater on one of our hills to keep in better touch, but that will result in losing our ability to see each other on our maps.

I still have only physically met one other GMRS licensee, other than on this forum.  But I know a lot of unlicensed people who use GMRS for purpose driven communications just like I did.  They don’t know or care about the regulations and they’re not hurting anyone. They’ve never even heard the word “interstitial” before.