A strange thing happened on my way to a new repeater......

[WRUU653]

Does anyone see the trend of linking repeaters as part of the issue??? It’s as if some people forget what the M in GMRS stands for… Yeah, that wont ruffle any feathers. Discuss amongst yourselves, I’ll be on the side monitoring.

[SteveShannon]

23 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

Does anyone see the trend of linking repeaters as part of the issue??? It’s as if some people forget what the M in GMRS stands for… Yeah, that wont ruffle any feathers. Discuss amongst yourselves, I’ll be on the side monitoring.

Even in the ham world there are folks who see large networks of linked repeaters as a potential problem.  

[WRPQ991]

If I only wanted to talk to my wife I would have got a MURS 900MHZ radio. or simply walk into the other room. I got into GMRS to talk to other people. Not chatter away for hours but check on road conditions or events. There is only one repeater that I should be able to use, but so far nothing..don't know if I'm doing something wrong or just can't reach the distance. I've put it on scan and pick up NOTHING ever. Very disappointed by the whole deal. At least with the little CB in my truck I can hear the gravel haulers and a few other trucks that come thru daily. But no locals.. I've scanned the 10M band, the 12M band, 2M and 6M bands and only thing I pick up is a religious station in Nashville. So, I see no reason no get a ham license.  Granted I don't have the right antenna for Ham bands.

I've put quite a bit of $$ into the GMRS just to hear static. Radioddity DB20G on a Nagoya NMO200c high gain antenna with Nagoya GPK-01 ground plane, sitting 25ft high. A Wouxun KG 805G and Baofeng UV 9G handhelds, and the Midland MXT500 in my truck. And all I get is static.

[WRQC527]

17 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

It seems obvious to me that rag-chewing is a violation of this premise:

Absolutely. It's a tough sell to get people to understand that for as many similarities there are between GMRS and ham radio, (push the button and talk, your voice comes out of someone else's radio), GMRS and ham are completely different in a lot of ways in terms of their intended uses and user base. It's more likely you'll hear someone on GMRS say real quick their Jeep is stuck again, but on ham you'll hear a 75 year old giving you 15 minutes about how his gout is flaring up for the fourth time this week. 

[SteveShannon]

15 minutes ago, WRPQ991 said:

If I only wanted to talk to my wife I would have got a MURS 900MHZ radio. or simply walk into the other room. I got into GMRS to talk to other people. Not chatter away for hours but check on road conditions or events. There is only one repeater that I should be able to use, but so far nothing..don't know if I'm doing something wrong or just can't reach the distance. I've put it on scan and pick up NOTHING ever. Very disappointed by the whole deal. At least with the little CB in my truck I can hear the gravel haulers and a few other trucks that come thru daily. But no locals.. I've scanned the 10M band, the 12M band, 2M and 6M bands and only thing I pick up is a religious station in Nashville. So, I see no reason no get a ham license.  Granted I don't have the right antenna for Ham bands.

I've put quite a bit of $$ into the GMRS just to hear static. Radioddity DB20G on a Nagoya NMO200c high gain antenna with Nagoya GPK-01 ground plane, sitting 25ft high. A Wouxun KG 805G and Baofeng UV 9G handhelds, and the Midland MXT500 in my truck. And all I get is static.

Maybe that's part of the misperception, that there will be someone to talk to and something to hear if you only get a GMRS radio.  It's more likely to be true on the ham bands, but still not completely reliable.  

Road conditions?  511

Also, if you know there's only one repeater, there's really no need to scan.  Just set your receiver to the same 462 MHz frequency as the repeater transmits, leave the tone cleared out, and leave it there.

[wayoverthere]

58 minutes ago, WQWX838 said:

. I know I'm a new poster here and that statement will likely get me banned for life when the flames start.

Ive actually found this forum to be fairly tolerant and respectful of differing viewpoints, for the most part.

 

I'll admit, I was one that came to gmrs looking for "ham-lite", en route to getting my ticket (pandemic shelter in place, and no VE sessions). Learned some things along the way, found minimal traffic (and making minimal traffic of my own since the family has no interest in radio, like less than zero), and made the jump to ham. Also learned the reality is more "frs-plus", or as @marcspazputs it, "bring your own contacts".

There's a bit more traffic now that an area ham club added a gmrs repeater...mainly the hams use it to reach their non-ham family, with the occasional radio checks. I chime in occasionally, but keep it to a minimum; to some extent it's also testing where I can reach it from as much as getting back to them, but I keep the majority of my ragchewing to the network of ham repeaters here that encourages it (when I actually join in).

[WRUU653]

2 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Even in the ham world there are folks who see large networks of linked repeaters as a potential problem.  

That I was not aware of.  I see people on here talking a lot of networking repeaters and this always seemed more Ham like and less mobile, family, friends and short conversations. Nothing against it and I could be wrong.  It just seems like an area that lends itself to the very things being complained about here and more embraced by the Ham community. Right tool for the right job so to speak.  I am fortunate here… rag chewing goes on but it is on Ham. I’m cool with that. GMRS is kinda quite but you can get a radio check and if you need an open channel it’s there to be found..

 

 

[WQWX838]

43 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

Does anyone see the trend of linking repeaters as part of the issue??? It’s as if some people forget what the M in GMRS stands for… Yeah, that wont ruffle any feathers. Discuss amongst yourselves, I’ll be on the side monitoring.

Bingo!!!! In an effort to link and expand coverage? This unwittingly expands the impact of non-utility behavior issues. North Georgia GMRS I used and subscribed until the linking started. The utility user numbers crashed, and the ham type numbers went up. It's a paid service so there goes the neighborhood. That was the catalyst for starting to acquire decent hardware to run my own cooker.

[SteveShannon]

12 minutes ago, WRUU653 said:

That I was not aware of.  I see people on here talking a lot of networking repeaters and this always seemed more Ham like and less mobile, family, friends and short conversations. Nothing against it and I could be wrong.  It just seems like an area that lends itself to the very things being complained about here and more embraced by the Ham community. Right tool for the right job so to speak.  I am fortunate here… rag chewing goes on but it is on Ham. I’m cool with that. GMRS is kinda quite but you can get a radio check and if you need an open channel it’s there to be found..

 

 

I should probably have emphasized the word "Potential."  There are a few ham clubs which avoid Brandmeister as their DMR network, except through limited bridges so they have more control over their own repeaters.  

[wayoverthere]

1 hour ago, WRUU653 said:

That I was not aware of.  I see people on here talking a lot of networking repeaters and this always seemed more Ham like and less mobile, family, friends and short conversations. Nothing against it and I could be wrong.  It just seems like an area that lends itself to the very things being complained about here and more embraced by the Ham community. Right tool for the right job so to speak.  I am fortunate here… rag chewing goes on but it is on Ham. I’m cool with that. GMRS is kinda quite but you can get a radio check and if you need an open channel it’s there to be found..

 

 

There is one wide coverage ham network here that part of their auto Id message asks that qso's (contacts) be limited to no more than 20 minutes to conserve power at the solar powered sites on the network. (The KERN system, which is linked with another system in SoCal (SCRN, maybe?)

[SteveShannon]

8 minutes ago, wayoverthere said:

There is one wide coverage ham network here that part of their auto Id message asks that qso's (contacts) be limited to no more than 20 minutes to conserve power at the solar powered sites on the network. (The KERN system, which is linked with another system in SoCal (SCRN, maybe?)

All of the statewide DMR talk groups now have (10 minutes) as part of their names “MT Statewide (10 minutes)-3130

[WRAM370]

Since this discussion is continuing, I will repeat myself from the previous discussion on hams using GMRS.

I think it demonstrates that the amateur radio service is not providing the “service” it should be, to the community at large, in 2023. Many ham radio test questions are out of date or antiquated. They have no real purpose to the users who are entering ham radio, and these questions and tests only serve as a barrier. Some will say they want that barrier to exist, to keep out the unwanted, just as they did with the morse code requirement. To those hams, I say ‘get over it’. The days of most hams being aerospace engineers and having pocket protectors are long gone. Like it or not, we live in the here and now, and it is a “new normal”. It may not be better, but it is new.

I thought there was a proposal in recent years to offer an entry level test of 5 questions, to give privileges on 70cm. That would be a step in the right direction for ham radio. What happened to that??? That is exactly what needs to be offered for entry level hams who only want to use an HT or mobile FM radio, with privileges only on 70cm FM frequencies. Give them privileges on 2m FM as well !

And in all reality, why do we even need test questions for those privileges, when it is basically the same as GMRS ? What do you need to know? You have a requirement to ID every so often, and you have to stay on these particular frequencies, and you would be limited to 50 watts TPO. No need to see if the applicant can recognize a resistor or a diode on a schematic. Who can do that today, with SMD components in everything? -/\/\/\/- is futile

 

[wayoverthere]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

All of the statewide DMR talk groups now have (10 minutes) as part of their names “MT Statewide (10 minutes)-3130

Now that you mention it, I remember noticing that...can you tell I don't do much DMR?

[SteveShannon]

44 minutes ago, WRAM370 said:

Since this discussion is continuing, I will repeat myself from the previous discussion on hams using GMRS.

I think it demonstrates that the amateur radio service is not providing the “service” it should be, to the community at large, in 2023. Many ham radio test questions are out of date or antiquated. They have no real purpose to the users who are entering ham radio, and these questions and tests only serve as a barrier. Some will say they want that barrier to exist, to keep out the unwanted, just as they did with the morse code requirement. To those hams, I say ‘get over it’. The days of most hams being aerospace engineers and having pocket protectors are long gone. Like it or not, we live in the here and now, and it is a “new normal”. It may not be better, but it is new.

I thought there was a proposal in recent years to offer an entry level test of 5 questions, to give privileges on 70cm. That would be a step in the right direction for ham radio. What happened to that??? That is exactly what needs to be offered for entry level hams who only want to use an HT or mobile FM radio, with privileges only on 70cm FM frequencies. Give them privileges on 2m FM as well !

And in all reality, why do we even need test questions for those privileges, when it is basically the same as GMRS ? What do you need to know? You have a requirement to ID every so often, and you have to stay on these particular frequencies, and you would be limited to 50 watts TPO. No need to see if the applicant can recognize a resistor or a diode on a schematic. Who can do that today, with SMD components in everything? -/\/\/\/- is futile

 

You can’t make Fords better by sabotaging GM. 

[WRQC527]

2 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Even in the ham world there are folks who see large networks of linked repeaters as a potential problem.  

Count me in that group. A perfect example is the WinSystem. They have repeaters and nodes linked in all over the world. Jam one of them and you're jamming all of them. One idiot starts transmitting a siren from his Baofeng or going on a 30-minute political rant and it gets transmitted out of every repeater and node on the system. Plus, it takes away a local repeater pair and instead we're linked in to drivel from some insomniac in the UK during our drive time. I don't even think it's a potential problem, I think it's an ongoing problem. Not only that, it's populated with self-appointed audiophiles who pride themselves in providing nothing but unsolicited signal reports. Sorry, linked ham repeaters are a hot-button for me.

[gortex2]

9 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

I don't even think it's a potential problem, I think it's an ongoing problem. 

I agree. When I was up north we had 3 UHF repeaters. One had really good coverage and wa kinda quiet so a few of us would use it alot for small chatter. Never long draw out conversations but to be honest more like GMRS. "joe im on my way to xyz. meet you there, ok, etc" 

The local club linked it to a STWD system (before DMR) and now we had to listen to guys clear across the state rag chewing all day. Insert DMR and now not one repeater in that area is a local repeater. Now none of them are used. Since moving I found 2 DMR UHF repeaters. Neither I can hit from my house so dont use them but when in those are's they are non stop chatter and never with guys nearby. If you switch to local its crickets. 

I use GMRS as a utility 99% of the time. Calling a jeep in front or behind me, talking to my father in his MH in front or behind me or local chat with wife or parents, "grab milk" etc. The thought of meeting folks and being a place for that baffles my mind as thats never been what GMRS was for. Not sure where folks keep seeing thats the purpose for GMRS. 

[WRKC935]

I guess my question would be did you put up a repeater to talk to YOUR family or for general use by all GMRS users?  If you are putting up a repeater you need to decide what it's used for.  No one in their right mind is gonna put up a repeater and link to one of the systems and then think it's gonna be a private repeater.  Unless you are gonna leave the link down all the time.  I just checked my repeater on MIDWEST. It's had over 6000 PTT's in the last 5 days.  With over 24 hours of total transmit in that time frame. 

My other repeater does get some local use as well.  And that's what it's there for, to be used.  Both repeaters are for general use, and open to all licensed users.  I certainly don't want to have equipment sitting dormant.  If no one was on the repeaters, I would take them off the air and sell them.  Now I would also not put up with it if there was some small group getting in there and keeping everyone else off the repeater tying it up all the time.  But my personality allows me to be able to deal with that directly. I would just tell them they are not welcome.  It's a shared resource and they can either figure out how to share or go do their thing somewhere else.  I have in the past let others get under my skin.  Get mad about the actions and behavior or others on my gear and then turn it off for weeks.  Only to relent and fire it back up.  I am not about that any more.  If someone gets on my gear and acts dumb, they get told to grow up or go play in some other sandbox. 

As far as the original purpose of GMRS.  I almost find those comments amusing.  No one hardly uses GMRS for private family use any more, at least that I have seen. At least were they are ONLY using their license for family comms.   I have no doubt that there are some that do.  But I believe that is rare.  And building repeater systems that cover 5 counties I can't see being for that specific purpose.  And personally I see doing that as a waste of resources (the repeater pair being taken up).  But we can do that according to the license rules.  I just don't personally agree with it.

But in saying that, far as resource utilization, is the reason I have my repeaters open to all and encourage their use by license holders.  My crap does cover 5 counties.  So I am not about to make it for private use.  And I have other means that are equally robust to communicate with family in times it's needed.  But that isn't a discussion for this forum. 

[UncleYoda]

17 hours ago, Sshannon said:

Something that perhaps isn't cited as frequently as it should be is this rule regarding Personal Radio Services. It seems obvious to me that rag-chewing is a violation of this premise:

§ 95.357 Duration of transmissions.

Except as otherwise provided, the operator of a Personal Radio Services station must generally limit transmissions to the minimum duration necessary. See e.g., § 95.2357. Some Personal Radio Services have specific duration limits, which are set forth in the subparts governing those services. See e.g., § 95.957.

That is for transmissions, not the same thing as conversations.  I see all these opinions here that GMRS is for a different use than HAM, but it's just your opinions, not what is in the regs.  When I applied for a GMRS, FCC didn't say, "No, we can't issue you a license because you have an Amateur license."  So, what y'all think it is or should be means nothing, unless you convince FCC to change the regs, or you set rules for a repeater you own.

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, UncleYoda said:

That is for transmissions, not the same thing as conversations.  I see all these opinions here that GMRS is for a different use than HAM, but it's just your opinions, not what is in the regs.  When I applied for a GMRS, FCC didn't say, "No, we can't issue you a license because you have an Amateur license."  So, what y'all think it is or should be means nothing, unless you convince FCC to change the regs, or you set rules for a repeater you own.

We should always be considerate  of other users. Rag-chewing on GMRS doesn’t fit that model.  It makes no sense to limit the length of a transmission, but allow a conversation to totally monopolize a channel. Yes, it does specifically mention “transmissions” because conversation is built on transmissions. It’s clearly intended to promote brevity, which include the conversation as a whole, in order to share the limited number of channels.  That spirit is reinforced by the very next requirement:

§ 95.359 Sharing of channels.

Unless otherwise provided in the subparts governing the individual services, all channels designated for use in the Personal Radio Services are available for use on a shared basis, and are not assigned by the FCC for the exclusive use of any person or station. Operators of Personal Radio Service stations must cooperate in the selection and use of channels in order to avoid interference and make efficient use of these shared channels. 

 

And for the record, I don’t think very many people believe hams should be barred from GMRS.  They just want to be able to use GMRS as a personal radio service, rather than have it taken over by a small number of inconsiderate jerks who monopolize the limited number of channels with long winded conversations.

It’s a matter of politely fitting in to the purposes for which the service has been established. 

[firebasecody]

Most of the Hams in my area use GMRS to contact non-hams.

[WQWX838]

3 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

That is for transmissions, not the same thing as conversations.  I see all these opinions here that GMRS is for a different use than HAM, but it's just your opinions, not what is in the regs.  When I applied for a GMRS, FCC didn't say, "No, we can't issue you a license because you have an Amateur license."  So, what y'all think it is or should be means nothing, unless you convince FCC to change the regs, or you set rules for a repeater you own.

Hi "UncleYoda"... Somehow, your emotions are deleting the core part of the suggestion. There are 8 channels. I have never read that "hams should be banned", yet I am suggesting that "hams" unwittingly develop operating habits that do not blend well with the 8 channel spectrum allocated. My vision for even bringing this up, is to call attention to this which may cause "hams" calling other "hams" on GMRS to politely say, "OK let's roll over to 70cm or 2m or some where else so that we don't clog the space..." that's all. No malice, no hidden advocacy, no "ham loathing"... Just bringing the idea that setting a precedent where we all behave as gentlemen and ladies and handle things with decency is encouraged. That is all.

[WRQC527]

1 hour ago, WQWX838 said:

"hams" calling other "hams" on GMRS

In my humble opinion, hams calling other hams on GMRS defeats the entire purpose of being a ham in the first place. There may be situations where everyone in a group has a GMRS license but not everyone  has a ham license, so hams would be calling other hams on GMRS by necessity, but for me, if everyone in my group is a ham, we stay in our own yard.

[SteveShannon]

8 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

In my humble opinion, hams calling other hams on GMRS defeats the entire purpose of being a ham in the first place. There may be situations where everyone in a group has a GMRS license but not everyone  has a ham license, so hams would be calling other hams on GMRS by necessity, but for me, if everyone in my group is a ham, we stay in our own yard.

This!

When I’m hamming I’m hamming and I’ll do it on amateur radio frequencies. 
If I’m GMRSing, I’ll follow practices that make GMRS work well for others as well as me. 

[SteveShannon]

26 minutes ago, WRQC527 said:

In my humble opinion, hams calling other hams on GMRS defeats the entire purpose of being a ham in the first place.

Yeah, it’s kind of bizarre, but I see lots of hams posting on Facebook that they’re on a particular frequency, either phone or ft8. 

[KAF6045]

23 hours ago, WRPQ991 said:

If I only wanted to talk to my wife I would have got a MURS 900MHZ radio.

MURS is 154MHz, the 900MHz stuff is NOT MURS -- heck 900MHz is not even a Part 95 service (as I recall, the devices fall into Part 15 and the Industrial/Scientific/Medical band https://afar.net/tutorials/fcc-rules/ )