Total Newbie with multiple questions:

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

• First I'm not sure which is the better antenna ¼,⅝, or ½ wave and which of them should I use on my home for a base for a GMRS/MURS/NOAA reception/transmitting antenna and why?
• Which antenna is the best low price option for what I'm trying to do?
• Can I use a splitter to hook up my Wouxun KG-UV9GX as well to the same antenna? Which one?
• I'm looking at making a base out of the Wouxun KG-1000G+ mobile, that I can also use in the vehicle for a bug out mobile, would I need to ground the antenna if I'm using a mag mount from either Midland or Tram, (Which is better?), and either the Midland or Nagoya NMO antennas?
• Which combo would be better, Midland all the way, Midland-Tram, Nagoya-Midland, Nagoya-Tram, or  just use the Wouxun AMO/NMO setup?
• Can I power all of this with a IOTA DLS-15 Series M? If not, which should I go with and why?

My ultimate goal is to eventually build this out to be a solar backed up repeater eventually as I can afford it, so keeping that in mind, I can also use some suggestions for that as well as can I use a duplexer with 2 radios and get full 50W output?

• With a Duplexer would I require 2 radios or must I just use 1?
• What if I went with 2 radios what's the difference in doing it that way? (Both with and without the duplexer?)
• What's the best way to get the best range and the most power output, (as close to 50W as I can legally get), for the least amount of funds?

I'm in the USA, if that matters. I know my area is lacking in the repeater area for GMRS and I'm wanting help to increase the footprint here.

[BoxCar]

That's a boat load of questions and right on point. As far as antennas, height is king. The higher the antenna, the further it is to the radio's horizon and coverage area. The type of antenna is dependent on what you are attempting to accomplish, the height above the average ground level in your desired coverage area and what the area contains as ground cover. Ground cover includes buildings so include them in your calculations.

As for building out a repeater, go to repeaterbuilder.com for examples of needed materials and issues with the planning and construction of a repeater. For your power supply needs, add the required amperage needed for the transmitter running at its highest power and the amps needed for the receiver (and yes - you do need both) then add 20% for overhead.

The questions you haven't asked will be about gain and losses in your transmission line and antenna. Antenna gain is reported using 2 scales, dBi and dBm. The one that counts is dBm as this is measured using real power rather than theoretical Dbm is dBi minus 2.l or a difference of about 40%. A 3 dB difference is either 50% less or twice the input power measured at the antenna input depending on if it is loss or gain measured in watts. For the best estimate of how your system operates, either as a base station or repeater requires a VNA or Vector Network Analyzer as it's the best device to measure transmission loss in your feedline and to tune your antenna to resonance. Yes, all antennas require tuning for optimal performance. 

Good luck on your dream.

[AdmiralCochrane]

The most useful repeaters are located on hilltops, tall buildings or towers of some sort (water towers, antenna towers etc).  A 10 watt transmitter mounted where it overlooks the surounding area is more useful than a 50 watt on a single story building with trees nearby. 

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

Ok, elevation isn't an issue, equipment is. I'm looking for specific information about equipment I should be using, I already have the perfect mountain top location for my antenna placement, that's not an issue. I'm already planning on using the Messi & Paoloni cables to get the signal to the antenna. That I didn't have any question about, hardware is.

I was hoping to get responses from salespeople in the industry or someone whose built several, that could shine a light on what's selling that most people are using to accomplish what I'm looking to do. Motorola, Retvis, Wouxun, something else?

Same with antenna choices, what works better, mated equipment or what happens if I mix and match components, like a Motorola/Laird or Midland antenna on a Wouxun, Diamond, or Tram NMO base or visa versa, for example. 

I'm not hard set on my equipment choices, I'm looking for help in making them, as well as the help with understanding which antenna wave to use for best results. Which I believe I have already determined should be at least ⅝ for best results, or am I wrong?

[Sshannon]

Our 2 meter repeater uses an array of folded dipoles.  That allows the pattern to be directed slightly downward.  When your repeater and antenna are on a mountaintop there’s little value to upward propagation.

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Sshannon
Added pictures

[WRWE456]

Why not call a radio dealer and just have them put a package together for you? That sounds like what you are asking for. Here you will get a bunch of different answers and recommendations that will likely just be confusing. For GMRS contact Buy Two Way Radios. 

https://www.buytwowayradios.com/  They will be glad to help you.

Now if you really want to learn about radio so you can make your own decisions then this forum is one of many good resources.

Radio is very technical and to be competent requires some understanding of how it works and experimenting and practice to learn what works and what does not in your situation.

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

On 11/4/2023 at 9:46 AM, WRWE456 said:

Why not call a radio dealer and just have them put a package together for you? That sounds like what you are asking for. Here you will get a bunch of different answers and recommendations that will likely just be confusing. For GMRS contact Buy Two Way Radios. 

https://www.buytwowayradios.com/  They will be glad to help you.

Now if you really want to learn about radio so you can make your own decisions then this forum is one of many good resources.

Radio is very technical and to be competent requires some understanding of how it works and experimenting and practice to learn what works and what does not in your situation.

I did call a couple of them, the response was to post my questions on this board that I'll get competent answers that will educate me to make my own decisions, so I'm taking it that's not the case and that I've wasted my time. 

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

On 11/4/2023 at 9:44 AM, Sshannon said:

Our 2 meter repeater uses an array of folded dipoles.  That allows the pattern to be directed slightly downward.  When your repeater and antenna are on a mountaintop there’s little value to upward propagation.

 

I'm looking primarily in the 70cm bands more specifically for GMRS 462-467MHz setup but, your 2m is sweet. What's the equipment your using to power those dipoles? I'm assuming it would be similar to what I'm looking at doing.

 

Something like this is what I'm looking to do for my setup, I'm just trying to get a consensus on what equipment I should use, I'm looking for people who sell it or actually have one setup to help me decide, I want to spark up the this is better than that and this is what I/We/Most people use discussion. I want to learn from those of you who've put up serious repeaters what equipment I need to use, if you had it to do all over you'd start with, kind of discussion.

My inquiring mind wants to know. Here is your chance to speak out and educate me as someone just starting out. I'm kinda cheap but, not anywhere near Baofeng cheap, think Wouxun cheap. I'm willing to spend Kenwood/Motorola/Midland/Retvis money if necessary but, I just want to know what everyone else is using even for mobile use. 

Being disabled, I don't get out much anymore and I want to contribute to my area but, I'm lacking the resources to obtain the information for which I'm seeking except to ask in a forum such as this. I'm not a ham and the attitudes I'm getting from the ones I have attempted conversations with, I'm not looking to get it either. 

[Sshannon]

18 minutes ago, CyborgAlienWRYG738 said:

I'm looking primarily in the 70cm bands more specifically for GMRS 462-467MHz setup but, your 2m is sweet. What's the equipment your using to power those dipoles? I'm assuming it would be similar to what I'm looking at doing.

The repeater is a Yaesu DR1. Yaesu had a special for ham radio clubs (years ago) where they almost gave them to the clubs. The guy who does maintenance on it isn’t really a fan of the repeater. He’s hoping to replace it with an Icom or Kenwood. 
Our 70 cm DMR/analog repeater is a Hytera. He likes it a lot better. Easier to program and maintain. 
 

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

2 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

The repeater is a Yaesu DR1. Yaesu had a special for ham radio clubs (years ago) where they almost gave them to the clubs. The guy who does maintenance on it isn’t really a fan of the repeater. 
Our 70 cm DMR/analog repeater is a Hytera. He likes it a lot better. Easier to program and maintain. 

With that Hytera, does it require a separate radio/radios to do anything or is it all self-contained, just add antenna and wiring? What radios are being used?

[Sshannon]

1 hour ago, CyborgAlienWRYG738 said:

With that Hytera, does it require a separate radio/radios to do anything or is it all self-contained, just add antenna and wiring? What radios are being used?

The Hytera is the radio repeater: a receiver and transmitter in one box. A duplexer is separate and then hardline, tower, and the tower with multiple antennas systems. There’s also various boxes that connect the repeater to a network for remote management, a bank of SLA batteries, an external repeater controller etc.

[Sshannon]

This is similar to our Hytera:

https://www.atlanticradiocorp.com/products/rd982i-hytera?currency=USD&variant=31742610473048&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&stkn=9fee02560796&gad=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-pyqBhDmARIsAKd9XIN4zuXMugwKG2atz2XCpzXUW6Z--X9t6CX64Z221it2rBdS-OljMT8aAmCDEALw_wcB
 

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

2 hours ago, Sshannon said:

This is similar to our Hytera:

https://www.atlanticradiocorp.com/products/rd982i-hytera?currency=USD&variant=31742610473048&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&stkn=9fee02560796&gad=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-pyqBhDmARIsAKd9XIN4zuXMugwKG2atz2XCpzXUW6Z--X9t6CX64Z221it2rBdS-OljMT8aAmCDEALw_wcB
 

So how many of these would be needed to use a duplexer then to the antenna, if I'm understanding you?

Y'all are also using a battery bank to power it all, I assume connected to a solar array for power to the batteries and some way to keep it all cool, what size room is this situated in? Is it air conditioned?

I noticed 2 banks for different channels so I take it one bank is on 462 MHz and the other 467 MHz for cross-banding or do y'all use it to run 2 separate channels like 15 and 20 for example and still have your cross banding on each band? Then it goes out from there to a net to hook up with other towers? Does it do DMR as a separate bank from Analog channels or does it require one of those 2 banks to use it?

Am I understanding this all correctly?

[Sshannon]

47 minutes ago, CyborgAlienWRYG738 said:

So how many of these would be needed to use a duplexer then to the antenna, if I'm understanding you?

Y'all are also using a battery bank to power it all, I assume connected to a solar array for power to the batteries and some way to keep it all cool, what size room is this situated in? Is it air conditioned?

I noticed 2 banks for different channels so I take it one bank is on 462 MHz and the other 467 MHz for cross-banding or do y'all use it to run 2 separate channels like 15 and 20 for example and still have your cross banding on each band? Then it goes out from there to a net to hook up with other towers? Does it do DMR as a separate bank from Analog channels or does it require one of those 2 banks to use it?

Am I understanding this all correctly?

No, I don’t think you are. 
For a repeater you only need one of these boxes. It has two female N ports, one for transmitting and one for receiving.  Two transmission lines run to the input and output ports of the duplexer. Another transmission line runs from the antenna port of the duplexer to the antenna. 
For GMRS the banks are meaningless. Banks are a feature but unnecessary for this purpose.
Your repeater receives on one frequency and transmits on another that is typically exactly 5 MHz lower. That combination of frequencies is a single repeater channel, such as 15RP or possibly 23, depending on the manufacturer. The channel name is unimportant; only the actual frequency is important. 
By regulation the 467 main frequencies are reserved almost entirely for transmitting from portable and mobile radios to repeaters. 
The repeater simultaneously transmits what it receives on the matching frequency in the 462 MHz main frequencies. So, for example a repeater referred to as a 550 repeater receives on 467.550 MHz and retransmits on 462.550 MHz. 
That is not cross-banding. Cross-banding doesn’t happen in GMRS. An example of cross-banding would be for a radio to receive on one band, such as amateur 2 meters, and simultaneously retransmit on 6 meters. 
The battery bank is there in case utility power goes off. We have no solar panels. 
The 70 cm DMR repeater is connected to the Brandmeister network. 
This is installed in a concrete room at the base of an unused lookout tower at nearly 10,000 feet elevation. There’s no need for air conditioning. Here’s a picture:

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

2 hours ago, Sshannon said:

No, I don’t think you are. 
For a repeater you only need one of these boxes. It has two female N ports, one for transmitting and one for receiving.  Two transmission lines run to the input and output ports of the duplexer. Another transmission line runs from the antenna port of the duplexer to the antenna. 
For GMRS the banks are meaningless. Banks are a feature but unnecessary for this purpose.
Your repeater receives on one frequency and transmits on another that is typically exactly 5 MHz lower. That combination of frequencies is a single repeater channel, such as 15RP or possibly 23, depending on the manufacturer. The channel name is unimportant; only the actual frequency is important. 
By regulation the 467 main frequencies are reserved almost entirely for transmitting from portable and mobile radios to repeaters. 
The repeater simultaneously transmits what it receives on the matching frequency in the 462 MHz main frequencies. So, for example a repeater referred to as a 550 repeater receives on 467.550 MHz and retransmits on 462.550 MHz. 
That is not cross-banding. Cross-banding doesn’t happen in GMRS. An example of cross-banding would be for a radio to receive on one band, such as amateur 2 meters, and simultaneously retransmit on 6 meters. 
The battery bank is there in case utility power goes off. We have no solar panels. 
The 70 cm DMR repeater is connected to the Brandmeister network. 
This is installed in a concrete room at the base of an unused lookout tower at nearly 10,000 feet elevation. There’s no need for air conditioning. Here’s a picture:

Thanks for the clarity and the photos, it looks similar to what I had envisioned. Except that I don't have a need for 2M at this point.

[Sshannon]

7 hours ago, CyborgAlienWRYG738 said:

Thanks for the clarity and the photos, it looks similar to what I had envisioned. Except that I don't have a need for 2M at this point.

You seem to be hung up on the fact that one of the repeaters is for 2m.  You asked numerous questions about repeaters. The Hytera in the picture is UHF (70 cm, but could be set up for GMRS).  The band is simply a choice when you order the repeater.  Everything else is applicable.

If you wish to do a repeater, and if you don’t want to use one of the inexpensive all-in-one Retevis RT-97s boxes, then this is typical of what you’ll be dealing with. 

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

2 hours ago, Sshannon said:

You seem to be hung up on the fact that one of the repeaters is for 2m.  You asked numerous questions about repeaters. The Hytera in the picture is UHF (70 cm, but could be set up for GMRS).  The band is simply a choice when you order the repeater.  Everything else is applicable.

If you wish to do a repeater, and if you don’t want to use one of the inexpensive all-in-one Retevis RT-97s boxes, then this is typical of what you’ll be dealing with. 

Thanks again, I thought you mentioned that you were doing both 2m and 70cm previously, I must've misunderstood. I'm wanting to go with something capable of industrial strength use even if it doesn't get used that much, similarly to what you're talking about, so thanks again for the insights. It's exactly what I was looking for. I'm sure that there are other brands out there, so I am also looking for others input on why they use that brand and how popular their choice is.

I didn't know what's cheap and what's industrial, this discussion has helped me a lot, thanks again.

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

14 hours ago, Sshannon said:

No, I don’t think you are. 
...
For GMRS the banks are meaningless. Banks are a feature but unnecessary for this purpose.
Your repeater receives on one frequency and transmits on another that is typically exactly 5 MHz lower. That combination of frequencies is a single repeater channel, such as 15RP or possibly 23, depending on the manufacturer. The channel name is unimportant; only the actual frequency is important. 
By regulation the 467 main frequencies are reserved almost entirely for transmitting from portable and mobile radios to repeaters. 
The repeater simultaneously transmits what it receives on the matching frequency in the 462 MHz main frequencies. So, for example a repeater referred to as a 550 repeater receives on 467.550 MHz and retransmits on 462.550 MHz. 
That is not cross-banding. Cross-banding doesn’t happen in GMRS. An example of cross-banding would be for a radio to receive on one band, such as amateur 2 meters, and simultaneously retransmit on 6 meters. 
 

Thanks for the clarity, I think I didn't clarify myself though. The one you linked to has an "A" and a "B" band, (capable of 2 "Channels" simultaneously,) I was curious if it's possible to basically have 2 repeaters in 1 by using 1 "band" for example on "Channel 20", and another on "Channel 17" for example on GMRS, or maybe if I wanted to, had to use one for DMR use or was that yet a separate "band" setting?

[Sshannon]

6 minutes ago, CyborgAlienWRYG738 said:

Thanks for the clarity, I think I didn't clarify myself though. The one you linked to has an "A" and a "B" band, (capable of 2 "Channels" simultaneously,) I was curious if it's possible to basically have 2 repeaters in 1 by using 1 "band" for example on "Channel 20", and another on "Channel 17" for example on GMRS, or maybe if I wanted to, had to use one for DMR use or was that yet a separate "band" setting?

I don’t know, but I doubt it. If you look at the back there are only two feedline jacks.

It’s not the way we would use it anyway. We dedicate one repeater to a single frequency pair (TX/RX).

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

 

3 hours ago, Sshannon said:

I don’t know, but I doubt it. If you look at the back there are only two feedline jacks.

It’s not the way we would use it anyway. We dedicate one repeater to a single frequency pair (TX/RX).

I'm seeing an input and output and digital "feedlines", so if I'm ONLY using this for GMRS, along with a digital source, (as defined for the band,) it shows on the front panel 2 band capabilities as well as digital, I'm wanting to know if I have to use 1 of those bands to do digital or if I can do 2 analog channels and 1 digital channel? Digital being 2-Way theoretically on the same channel, I would think that this is actually a 3 band repeater. I'm asking if I'm wrong in my assumption.

I'm trying to decide if I would need a separate device if I wanted to have basically 2 repeaters, one analog and digital as well as a separate one for a secondary channel, (I'm thinking for EMS use to extend them into my area.) I'm basically wanting to set up an open "travel channel", along with a separate one for EMS use with digital capabilities as well on it. 

[Sshannon]

39 minutes ago, CyborgAlienWRYG738 said:

 

I'm seeing an input and output and digital "feedlines", so if I'm ONLY using this for GMRS, along with a digital source, (as defined for the band,) it shows on the front panel 2 band capabilities as well as digital, I'm wanting to know if I have to use 1 of those bands to do digital or if I can do 2 analog channels and 1 digital channel? Digital being 2-Way theoretically on the same channel, I would think that this is actually a 3 band repeater. I'm asking if I'm wrong in my assumption.

I'm trying to decide if I would need a separate device if I wanted to have basically 2 repeaters, one analog and digital as well as a separate one for a secondary channel, (I'm thinking for EMS use to extend them into my area.) I'm basically wanting to set up an open "travel channel", along with a separate one for EMS use with digital capabilities as well on it. 

Your feedline is your coaxial transmission line to or from the duplexer. The duplexer allows you to use a single antenna. Those other ports have nothing to do with antennas. 
Digital is restricted on GMRS. DMR on GMRS isn’t generally allowed. 
I don’t know what you’re trying to accomplish, but it sounds like it’s complicated and maybe a moving target. I don’t have the answers for you. I don’t know of any multiple combined repeaters. I do know that the Hytera we use is capable of automatically switching from analog to digital on the same frequency, but that’s on 70 cm where DMR is allowed. That’s just a mode switch, not a different repeater. 

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

3 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

Your feedline is your coaxial transmission line to or from the duplexer. The duplexer allows you to use a single antenna. Those other ports have nothing to do with antennas. 
Digital is restricted on GMRS. DMR on GMRS isn’t generally allowed. 
I don’t know what you’re trying to accomplish, but it sounds like it’s complicated and maybe a moving target. I don’t have the answers for you. I don’t know of any multiple combined repeaters. I do know that the Hytera we use is capable of automatically switching from analog to digital on the same frequency, but that’s on 70 cm where DMR is allowed. That’s just a mode switch, not a different repeater. 

I understand that you have an input and output "feedline" that you connect to the duplexer to just use 1 antenna, my complicated question is, with the Hytera, would I be able to do 2 simultaneous but, different channels, since it's supposedly capable of it, as well as a digital channel, with 1 of those channels being say GMRS channel 20 and the other my local EMS channel that's spotty in my area, with digital also on that line? Would I require a separate device to add the digital capability in?

Sorry I'm just a layman in apprentice training.

[Sshannon]

The Digital LED is just an indicator to let you know when it’s a digital signal. It’s not a separate channel. 
I don’t believe that channel A and channel B can both be used simultaneously, I’ve said that multiple times now. If you want more information you should contact the vendor. 

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

7 minutes ago, Sshannon said:

The Digital LED is just an indicator to let you know when it’s a digital signal. It’s not a separate channel. 
I don’t believe that channel A and channel B can both be used simultaneously, I’ve said that multiple times now. If you want more information you should contact the vendor. 

I think I got you now, thanks for your help. 

[Sshannon]

Okay, curiosity got the better of me.  I downloaded the manual. 

Those "two channels" A and B are really two time-slots on a single frequency.  Each DMR channel has two time-slots.  Both channels use the same frequency, but you can set up the repeater to use Time-slot 1 for one talkgroup and Time-slot 2 for another talkgroup.  Of course that's a moot point in GMRS the way the regs are right now.

So, one frequency pair, broken into two time-division multiplexed "channels".  Not usable for GMRS, and an analog transmission talks over both time slots.  So, you are right that two different conversations could take place at the same time.

Here's the manual: https://www.hytera.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Hytera-RD982i-RD982i-S-RD982i-S-100W-Digital-Repeater-Owners-Manual.pdf

That repeater is beyond end of life.

 

[CyborgAlienWRYG738]

1 hour ago, Sshannon said:

Okay, curiosity got the better of me.  I downloaded the manual. 

Those "two channels" A and B are really two time-slots on a single frequency.  Each DMR channel has two time-slots.  Both channels use the same frequency, but you can set up the repeater to use Time-slot 1 for one talkgroup and Time-slot 2 for another talkgroup.  Of course that's a moot point in GMRS the way the regs are right now.

So, one frequency pair, broken into two time-division multiplexed "channels".  Not usable for GMRS, and an analog transmission talks over both time slots.  So, you are right that two different conversations could take place at the same time.

Here's the manual: https://www.hytera.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Hytera-RD982i-RD982i-S-RD982i-S-100W-Digital-Repeater-Owners-Manual.pdf

That repeater is beyond end of life.

 

Thanks for the information, it's exactly what I needed to know. I can either use it to inject digital into an analog 70cm for EMS or use it for non-digital on GMRS with just one frequency from what I'm gathering from what you're saying. That last sentence says a lot too...