Best radio for a Middle School.

[WRTT642]

Hello all,

I am a teacher at my local middle school and I am in the process of starting a ham radio club for the kids. It has piqued the interest of students, parents, and staff alike. In doing this the principal has been asking me questions about the radios that the staff use for the building. They typically use them for communications in locating kids, lunchtime duties, bus duty, etc. The principal has told me that the radios they currently use are horrible and that they have a hard time reaching across the school. 

The radio that the school is using is the Hytera PD362i, and we have about 8 of them along with some no-frill, basic Motorolas. When I asked him about who runs all the radios for the district and his experience he stated that the individual is IT guy and his knowledge of radios is very limited. The principal does not know why they use these radios specifically, but that was what was given to them. He has made complaints to the district about the radio not being able to reach all around the school and even within closer proximities. When he asked me to find out what radios would be good to have for the school and brought a couple of Baofeng UV-9g's to school and ran a couple of tests to gauge the distance and sound on them. I was very surprised that the UV9g's could be heard loud and clear on FRS frequencies everywhere in the school as well as outside of the building yet the Hytera's could not even make half those distances. I am not a professional in this field and my knowledge in doing such things in this capacity is almost nonexistent. I did tell the principal I would look into it and see what I can find out, I am a history major so business comms is not in my wheelhouse of expertise in any way. So I come to all of you who are experts in such things and know way more than I do in this subject. Any feedback or help would be greatly appreciated. The answers the principal got was that they were going to need to set up a repeater in the school and for some reason was going to cost them $10,000!!!! So as you can see this has been a touchy subject with admin because of the cost, yet these radios are vital for communications around the school. If anyone is willing to help us out and give us some info or if anyone is willing to volunteer their time for a consult over the phone with the principal or just point me in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. 

 

[Radioguy7268]

There are lots of funds available for schools under the Safe Schools funding & government grants for security. Take a look here: schoolsafety.gov

I'm not sure why those compact digital Hytera radios are being out-performed by Baofengs, but I'd definitely try out some other radios with better durability & performance specifications. Radios used for safety & security at a school should not be purchased based upon cheapest price. Repeaters are not necessary for most smaller sized buildings, but I've seen some strange stuff with newer construction with low-E glass. There are also advantages to using digital repeaters for a district-wide network that allows

I'd call in a local wireless company & have them survey the building to see what works. They might also be able to help you out with some direction on grants and funding options available to schools in your State.

[pcradio]

Well that model of Hytera is only 3watt and has a very small antenna. Probably not even transmitting 3w with battery age/use. In any event they will be outclassed by a 5watt radio with a bigger antenna like what the UV-9G has. So, the test result you've seen has plausibility. The real question is what type of building & topographical interference is in the area that is causing the need for larger radios?

GMRS is a licensed service. So, as long as everyone gets a license, you have some GMRS radio options out there, but really a full keypad radio is not a good option in your setting and end users.

Thus, here are some business radios that make sense for you.

Look at the Hytera TC-508 (dual band), PD402i-U1 or BD502i-U1 which are much better alternatives for your environment. Also look at Motorola CP100D, Motorola RM RMU2080, Icom F4001, Kenwood NX-P1302AU.

[Guest]

Our school sites are successfully using Motorola DTR 600 radios (900 MHz - ISM band - license free and open for private and business).

Those are digital and programmed to facilitate private group conversations (reasonably private). The new and cheaper versions of those are the DLR1020, DLR1060, and curve. - The price tag and the low range makes it them an unlikely choice for the casual user (unlike GMRS and even ham).

We have 9 locations and those radios perform well in all of them (all with different building configurations and materials). One of our sites is 2 1/2 miles away from my backyard / veranda (line of sight with little obstructions / structures) and I have no problem reaching those colleagues.

The DLR1060 retails for about $250 and it will take someone to do the initial programming for privacy. - I took on that role for us and programmed 100" DRT600 last summer - a few hours well worth it: We are operating on private groups that only allow for our radios (authorized by their serial number) to talk with each other on three main channels. I also added three "open" channels that allow for new radios to be integrated without having to reprogram all radios. Those are less private (one would have to know the four-digit profile number).

As far as I know, there is only one business in our area (western Mojave Desert in Southern California with a population of 1/2 million) that is using old DTR410 radios (out of the box / no programming) and that has never caused interference although we previously used the same DTRs at our largest site (no programming) for ten years.

[Radioguy7268]

The trouble with relying on cellular phones as a primary communication device in an emergency is that every cellular service is over-subscribed by design. They make money on the idea that thousands of people might be in the vicinity of a local cellular tower, but only a few of those people will actually be trying to use their phones at any given moment. In an emergency, everyone picks up their phone and tries to call, text, livestream, or search up: "what do I do in an active shooter situation?"

Any study done in the aftermath of an emergency will point out poor communication as a primary point of failure. Having a dedicated communication system with proper training and protocols is much better if there is an emergency - rather than relying on a service that piggybacks on top of an overloaded cellular service.

Do NOT use Zello for emergency situations.

[wrci350]

On 12/3/2023 at 6:31 PM, WRKC935 said:

FRS radios that are sold in a big box store in bubble packs are meant by the service they are attached to to NOT be used for commercial / government entity applications.

Same goes for FRS radios being used for school communications.  It's not what that service was intended for.  And improper use of a radio service is technically against the regulations.

Except that it's not.  "Family" radio service or not, commercial use of FRS radios is OK.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-95.503

Not saying that bubble-pack FRS radios would be the best choice for a school although I know there are many that use them.  But there are LOTS of commercial entities using FRS radios, and even some government ones.  One example?  Flaggers for a paving or other road construction crew.  Short distance, not emergency services, cheap solution works fine.  I know of at least one local town that does this.  Sure, their trucks have commercial radios on a DMR frequency, but the two people holding the stop signs on either side of the paving operation are using FRS.  The FCC isn't going to hunt them down and impose a 10K fine, not just because enforcement of FRS rules is at the bottom of their list, but because they aren't doing anything against regulations.

[SteveShannon]

2 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

The trouble with relying on cellular phones as a primary communication device in an emergency is that every cellular service is over-subscribed by design. They make money on the idea that thousands of people might be in the vicinity of a local cellular tower, but only a few of those people will actually be trying to use their phones at any given moment. In an emergency, everyone picks up their phone and tries to call, text, livestream, or search up: "what do I do in an active shooter situation?"

Any study done in the aftermath of an emergency will point out poor communication as a primary point of failure. Having a dedicated communication system with proper training and protocols is much better if there is an emergency - rather than relying on a service that piggybacks on top of an overloaded cellular service.

Do NOT use Zello for emergency situations.

@Radioguy7268 I consider your post one of the best posts in this thread.  

I would only add that, regardless of what your school chooses, you absolutely must train everyone who might possibly ever need to use it and then have them use it frequently (recess duty, sporting events, speech meets, etc.) so in a true emergency its use is second nature. Even though many teachers are often early adopters of technology, some will be intimidated by it and not want to touch it.  They’re the ones who will benefit most from training.  Also, make sure everyone in a position of responsibility gets training, not just teachers and admin staff. Your classroom helpers, janitors, maintenance engineer, bus drivers, lunchroom workers, coaches, resource officers, etc.  It might not hurt to identify some tech savvy students and train them also so they can help if a teacher is incapacitated or distracted by more important details during an emergency. Obviously that’s less likely for younger grades unless you have older students as helpers.  I would also make sure someone on the outside gets a radio and training, such as the school board chairperson, county superintendent, or someone with local law enforcement.

My wife was a teacher at schools of various sizes from one room, where she was responsible for all eight grades, to a large school where she was one of three second grade teachers. She was always having to send one of the older students to tell another teacher something.  The intercoms built into many schools are hampered by the fact that they are permanently installed in the wall.  For normal classroom communications they’re barely adequate. In an emergency it’s nearly impossible to whisper and use the intercom.

Drill.  A lot.

[WRCR724]

IF, and that's a big IF, all you want to do is communicate efficiently around the whole school campus, and IF you don't want to rely on the radios for emergencies, then I would suggest inexpensive network radios. They operate by using either WiFi or cellular data. So without one of those two, they won't work. Here's a couple for around $60 each. 

https://www.amazon.com/Walkie-Network-Smartphone-Android-KSUN/dp/B09ZHZ19YK/ref=sr_1_13?keywords=network+radio&qid=1702990251&sr=8-13&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840

https://www.amazon.com/Smartphone-Wireless-Bluetooth-Function-KSUN-ZL10/dp/B097BFQLBM/ref=sr_1_14?keywords=network+radio&qid=1702990251&sr=8-14&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840

 

Seems like they all use the Zello app. So another option is to just have all the teachers/faculty install Zello on their phones and use that. Totally free with no service or hardware to purchase. Once installed, a channel can be created just for the school's use. One benefit to using Zello is that no one other than those you are connecting to can monitor your communications. 

Just thought it may be something for you to consider. 

[WRTT642]

1 hour ago, Radioguy7268 said:

There are lots of funds available for schools under the Safe Schools funding & government grants for security. Take a look here: schoolsafety.gov

I'm not sure why those compact digital Hytera radios are being out-performed by Baofengs, but I'd definitely try out some other radios with better durability & performance specifications. Radios used for safety & security at a school should not be purchased based upon cheapest price. Repeaters are not necessary for most smaller sized buildings, but I've seen some strange stuff with newer construction with low-E glass. There are also advantages to using digital repeaters for a district-wide network that allows

I'd call in a local wireless company & have them survey the building to see what works. They might also be able to help you out with some direction on grants and funding options available to schools in your State.

Thank you for the info. Yeah, not sure why the Baofeng works better than the Hytera, but it did with multiple people including myself saying it works much much better throughout the whole school. I was very surprised as well. Anyway, I will pass the information along and see what we can do. Thank you again for the help.

[WRTT642]

I agree. I don't think Baofeng is a suitable replacement. I only used it to get an idea of what could possibly work. It is the only set of radios that I have on hand that we can transmit in the building to see a comparison. I'm not sure of the exact size or square footage of the building, but it is a decent-sized building and one of the bigger ones in our district. The entire building is pretty much made of brick, which I suspect is the cause for the interference, but it still doesn't make sense to me as to why the Baofengs worked so well, but the Hyteras don't. There is one location specifically that the principal has concerns for and that is the location where the students who are in I.S.S. (in-school suspension) as well as students who are being sent out of class for disruptive behavior. The room gets very poor reception even with cell phones and the Hytera just sends static, but again when I tested the Baofengs from that room to the front office and cafeteria, etc, they were loud and clear. Anyway, I do appreciate the help and information, I will compile all this info to give to the principal and continue to do more research on the recommendations you have all given. Thank you very much! 

[BoxCar]

One other point no one broached is to talk to the local PD. They will help your school with interoperability issues and may even have some units they can provide your administration for use in a situation requiring police presence. You won't use their radios for bus duty and the like as they would be for emergencies only.

I would steer away from FRS radios because of the issues with possible interference. Talk to a local radio supplier and get some business band units. Yes the brand name ones like Motorola, Kenwood and ICOM are expensive but others like RCA, Hytera and a few others are reasonable. 

[WRTT642]

1 minute ago, BoxCar said:

One other point no one broached is to talk to the local PD. They will help your school with interoperability issues and may even have some units they can provide your administration for use in a situation requiring police presence. You won't use their radios for bus duty and the like as they would be for emergencies only.

I would steer away from FRS radios because of the issues with possible interference. Talk to a local radio supplier and get some business band units. Yes the brand name ones like Motorola, Kenwood and ICOM are expensive but others like RCA, Hytera and a few others are reasonable. 

Thank you for the info. Our schools have pretty good security and I believe the principals, at least at some of the schools such as the high schools, do have one dedicated radio for local law enforcement locked in their office for emergency purposes. Without getting into too much detail our district has done some very good work for our schools as far as security and safety are concerned. My guess about the staff radios as to why they are not making a bigger issue about it at my school is that maybe other schools are not having the same problem. I don't know all the specifics about the comms situation at our district and the principal just brought this up to me so I have only been trying to figure this out for the past couple of days. This is why I bring it to you all because after using the Baofengs and that they worked as well as they did I kinda just scratched my head and said I have no idea what is going on here lol.  

[Radioguy7268]

My only guess on those Hyteras (and it's totally a guess) would be that they are programmed for low power with either .5 or 1 watt on FRS channels. If your school does not have a specific frequency licensed with the FCC, some radio shops and dealers would just plug in some low power random FRS channels as a workaround instead of bothering with Licensing issues.

 

[Flameout]

I have no idea of the legalities of using a gmrs repeater in a school/business scenario, but something like a Motorola GR1225 centralized in the school,  with a good antenna seems like it would do the trick and they can be found for a few hundred dollars. Even the lower power r1225 (1w-11w) would probably work for that small of an area. 

[BoxCar]

Schools can't be licensed for Part 95 or 97. They can license under both 90.20 and 90.37.

[pcradio]

16 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

My only guess on those Hyteras (and it's totally a guess) would be that they are programmed for low power with either .5 or 1 watt on FRS channels.

 

This could be it.

[WRTT642]

5 hours ago, WRXD372 said:

Our school sites are successfully using Motorola DTR 600 radios (900 MHz - ISM band - license free and open for private and business).

Those are digital and programmed to facilitate private group conversations (reasonably private). The new and cheaper versions of those are the DLR1020, DLR1060, and curve. - The price tag and the low range makes it them an unlikely choice for the casual user (unlike GMRS and even ham).

We have 9 locations and those radios perform well in all of them (all with different building configurations and materials). One of our sites is 2 1/2 miles away from my backyard / veranda (line of sight with little obstructions / structures) and I have no problem reaching those colleagues.

The DLR1060 retails for about $250 and it will take someone to do the initial programming for privacy. - I took on that role for us and programmed 100" DRT600 last summer - a few hours well worth it: We are operating on private groups that only allow for our radios (authorized by their serial number) to talk with each other on three main channels. I also added three "open" channels that allow for new radios to be integrated without having to reprogram all radios. Those are less private (one would have to know the four-digit profile number).

As far as I know, there is only one business in our area (western Mojave Desert in Southern California with a population of 1/2 million) that is using old DTR410 radios (out of the box / no programming) and that has never caused interference although we previously used the same DTRs at our largest site (no programming) for ten years.

This sounds like the way to do it. Thank you so much for the info!

[WRKC935]

So the first issue that they may be having is the fact the radios they have are in the Part 90 allocation.  And do you know what frequency they are on?  Could be VHF. could be UHF.  Hard to say.  All this has to do with the noise floor of the area around the facility.  Rural area noise floors are typically going to be lower than urban areas.  The type of license they have is also a consideration.  If they are saddled with an itinerant license, their neighbors across the street may have the same frequencies as they do further limiting their ability to talk.  Lastly, the squelch level of the radios they have, which is programmable only and not user adjustable may have a hand in the lack luster coverage they are experiencing.  GMRS and HAM UHF frequencies are typically fairly quiet and the noise floor there is very low typically.  Much lower than the noise floor in the part 90 allocated frequencies.

But what I can tell you is this.  There are a number of different radio services out there that are for different applications and users.  FRS radios that are sold in a big box store in bubble packs are meant by the service they are attached to to NOT be used for commercial / government entity applications.  Just because you can buy them across the counter doesn't mean they are for every application you can imagine.  FRS specifically stands for FAMILY radio service.  Meaning they are for family use in a similar way that a child's walkie-talkie is meant for that application and NOT as a radio system for public safety.  Could you use kids walkie-talkies in a public safety situation?  Sure, if the range was limited, and the interference was minimal, police could use them to communicate.  But that's not what they are for, and if a police department was to use them for law enforcement activities and the FCC caught wind of it there would be some fall out over it.  Same goes for FRS radios being used for school communications.  It's not what that service was intended for.  And improper use of a radio service is technically against the regulations.  Now, mind you seeing any sort of enforcement with this is pretty far fetched, BUT if the FCC were to get wind of it and decide to levy fines to the schools for using the FRS service as their communications system, those fines could reach over 10K in short order.  So messing about with things of this nature, not being aware of the regulations could get them in hot water.  And while the FCC can't really come for you for violations, the school could seek to create a civil case against you for sending them that direction.

 

[WROQ359]

A lot of the schools here in Arizona have subscribed to one of the several DMR systems in the area, good coverage and quality radios. This allows them to have on campus radios as well as for the bus operations. If your school doesn't have the ability to do something like that, I know a lot of schools have funding issues, why not try Zello? Just about all of your staff members likely have a cell phone, and as long as there is good cell coverage at the school the using Zello would be free. You can setup as many channels as you need and no worry about anyone listening in or having access to the system that isn't authorized. 

[MarkInTampa]

If the school already has existing Hytera DMR and Motorola radios they are probably already licensed for the commercial band. I'm assuming you are in the Matanuska-Susitna area based on your call sign and the FCC shows the school district having 16 registered frequencies in the UHF band. I'd call the school district contact for the FCC license, Chris Remick and ask for his advice. Also let him know according to the FCC licensing system they are up for license renewal, they have sent 3 notices.

[StogieVol]

Very good idea. Teaching the younger generation about radios! 

[Radioguy7268]

Layering communication technology on top of a WiFi network is a really poor choice for an emergency communication channel.

When things go bad, you want to count on LESS technology, not more. The more you can adhere to the KISS principle, the better off things will work once things go wrong. Keep it simple, keep it working.

What happens if the school gets hit by high winds that rip the roof off? Well - at least with conventional portable radios, there's the option of simplex. What's the option with Network radios when there is no functioning Network?

There's already money available for schools for communication equipment through Federal/State grants & funding. No need for Amazon.

[WRCR724]

4 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

Layering communication technology on top of a WiFi network is a really poor choice for an emergency communication channel.

When things go bad, you want to count on LESS technology, not more. The more you can adhere to the KISS principle, the better off things will work once things go wrong. Keep it simple, keep it working.

What happens if the school gets hit by high winds that rip the roof off? Well - at least with conventional portable radios, there's the option of simplex. What's the option with Network radios when there is no functioning Network?

There's already money available for schools for communication equipment through Federal/State grants & funding. No need for Amazon.

Did you not fully read my post? Here's the first sentence again: 

 

"IF, and that's a big IF, all you want to do is communicate efficiently around the whole school campus, and IF you don't want to rely on the radios for emergencies, then I would suggest inexpensive network radios."

[nokones]

Do not buy cheap Chinese crap from Amazon. Buy from a reputable radio dealer such as Motorola

[WRCR724]

Motorola is a  manufacturer, not a dealer. 

[nokones]

1 hour ago, WRCR724 said:

Motorola is a  manufacturer, not a dealer. 

No kidding.

Seriously? Please note what I wrote.

And they (Motorola, the Manufacturer) also have authorized Dealers that sell the high end products, and accessories, and services/repair, for the manufacturing company called "Motorola" and are referred to as an Authorized Motorola Dealer as opposed to a non-dealer that repairs any brand radio but can sell Motorola accessories but not the Motorola radio product.

For many decades, an authorized Motorola sales and service business has been referred to as a Motorola Dealer and/or Shop because they represent Motorola, the manufacturing company, and are not owned by Motorola. You might want to try searching in Google or Yahoo "Motorola Dealer" and see what pops up.

According to Daniel Webster, the definition/meaning of the term "Dealer" is: "A dealer is a person whose business involves buying and selling things".

C'mon, get real and think before acting "Less than Intelligent". Another radio amateur, and I don't mean a HAM radio service or hobbyist.