Radios For Forestry Work

[Guest IDontKnowAboutRadios]

Hello people, I need some help. Can you all please recommend a radio that would be suitable for forestry work? I'm looking for something very durable and reliable, preferably "Public Safety Grade" with little licensing if possible. In this specific line of forestry work, communication is important and our new site is far out in the back county, and cell service is not a viable option. Sorry for my ignorance on the topic, just looking for some help and recommendations.

[WRQC527]

Can you tell us what kind of range you need? Your choices for non-licensed radios are limited to just a couple of watts, so you may have issues with range due to terrain and foliage. GMRS may give you more range because you would be allowed higher power, but each user would need a license.

FRS is the Family Radio Service, limited to 2 watts, mostly handheld radios. No license required.

MURS is the Multi Use Radio Service, limited also to 2 watts, mostly handheld radios. No license required.

GMRS is the General Mobile Radio Service, which allows up to 50 watts, and uses both handhelds (5 watts) and mobile radios. Individual license is required.

 

[DONE]

Without knowing your budget, I would toss a couple idea's your way in the 'reasonable' cost arena.

Motorola on both counts.  First would be the CDM mobiles and HT series portables.  These were in their day the go to for law enforcement and fire service use.  Very rugged and reliable. 

Second, for a slightly newer Motorola radio I would look at the XPR 4550 mobiles and 6550 portables.  Again, the go to for public safety.  They have DMR functionality but that can't be used on GMRS or FRS.  But they are a really good radio as well.

 Any of the radios mentioned will need to be programmed with a computer and the required software.  That being said, having radios that can't be messed with that are being handed out to workers, the fact they are locked down is a good thing.  Having limited channels, functions and the like means that users are less likely to end up off on some random channel or frequency that it's the one you need them on. 

And these radios or similar radios from other manufactures can be used on commercial frequencies if you decide to get a business radio license later down the road.  THe offerings that are GMRS specific radios can't do that, they are going to be locked to the GMRS service. 

[BoxCar]

Your best bet would be a commercial license and commercial grade radios. Almost all the radio dealers can help you decide on exactly what radios and the number of frequencies you would need. My suggestion is for VHF itinerant band radios and frequencies, unless you are going to be in the same area for more than a year or two. Then you would want regular business channels still in the VHF band for coverage. Your HQ or base would need a base station and commercial grade antenna system. Be aware though that just having the radios doesn't mean you'll always have contact with your base or handhelds because of the terrain you'll be working in.

[nokones]

10 hours ago, Guest IDontKnowAboutRadios said:

Hello people, I need some help. Can you all please recommend a radio that would be suitable for forestry work? 

Forestry Work = Meaning what exactly? Planting trees, fighting fires, or clearing out dead tree branches or thining the forest?

Depending on what your intention is on how you plan to use your radio will dictate the frequencies you can legally use during your forestry operation. As I suspect, you are most likely a private entity and not a government agency, you may have to acquire a license for use in the Industrial/Business Radio Pool (Part 90) and depending on your activity that will also dictate which radio service frequency you can be licensed on within that Pool. You should familiarize yourself with Part 95.35.

More than likely, you may not be eligible to use GMRS or any freqs in the Personal Radio Service (Part 95) based on your intended use

Public Safety Grade radios would be the Motorola APX series mobiles and portable for the current generation and the Astro 25 Digital Series such as the XTL/XTS series mobiles and portables for the previous generation of radios.

The cost of the APX series is thousands of dollars for new radios and the used radio market is somewhat limited in inventory but less thousands of dollars.

The Astro 25 Digital XTL/XTS series used radio market is plentiful as most of the public safety agencies along with the federal agencies are changing out these radios for the APX series radios. The cost of these radios are very reasonable and these radios should give you plenty of years if not a decade or two of good service use.

You can buy portables for around $200-400 and mobiles for about $400-600 depending on the features and flash codes. Don't get hung up on if you need the Trunking features although most of the used market radios are flashed for Trunking and Digital operation. 

If your communication needs are just analog conventional than you'll should find these radios are almost a dime a dozen.

[Lscott]

Kenwood offers some very good radios for a reasonable cost. For rugged outdoors use as you mentioned a public safety grade radio is a must. I would recommend the VHF models in the attached brochures. You will need the software and license for them. 

To add some of the digital voice modes to the higher end models requires additional licenses.

The NX-5000 series is the only one that can do three digital voice modes, two at a time, NXDN, DMR and P25. The licenses for the first two are really cheap, about $42 each. The P25 license is very expensive and typically used by government agencies and first responders like police and fire.

If you don't need P25 then the somewhat cheaper NX-3000 series hand held might work for you.

The cheapest option is the NX-1000 series. They are good radios but aren't really public safety grade.

Encryption options are available for some of the digital modes if required.

The attached catalog has all of the options listed and the current "list" price. You may qualify for a discount if you're a local, state or federal government agency etc.

Kenwood Land Mobile Radio Guide 2024.pdf NX-5200_5300_5400.pdf NX-5700, 5800, 5900.pdf NX-3200_3300.pdf NX-1200_1300 Num 1.pdf NX-1700_1800.pdf

[Guest IDontKnowAboutRadios]

21 hours ago, WRQC527 said:

Can you tell us what kind of range you need? Your choices for non-licensed radios are limited to just a couple of watts, so you may have issues with range due to terrain and foliage. GMRS may give you more range because you would be allowed higher power, but each user would need a license.

FRS is the Family Radio Service, limited to 2 watts, mostly handheld radios. No license required.

MURS is the Multi Use Radio Service, limited also to 2 watts, mostly handheld radios. No license required.

GMRS is the General Mobile Radio Service, which allows up to 50 watts, and uses both handhelds (5 watts) and mobile radios. Individual license is required.

 

I would be willing to get the license but I don't want to have to take such a exam as the amateur radio one as long as I can get my guys to do it I'm fine with the getting licenses

[Guest IDontKnowAboutRadios]

20 hours ago, WRKC935 said:

Without knowing your budget, I would toss a couple idea's your way in the 'reasonable' cost arena.

Motorola on both counts.  First would be the CDM mobiles and HT series portables.  These were in their day the go to for law enforcement and fire service use.  Very rugged and reliable. 

Second, for a slightly newer Motorola radio I would look at the XPR 4550 mobiles and 6550 portables.  Again, the go to for public safety.  They have DMR functionality but that can't be used on GMRS or FRS.  But they are a really good radio as well.

 Any of the radios mentioned will need to be programmed with a computer and the required software.  That being said, having radios that can't be messed with that are being handed out to workers, the fact they are locked down is a good thing.  Having limited channels, functions and the like means that users are less likely to end up off on some random channel or frequency that it's the one you need them on. 

And these radios or similar radios from other manufactures can be used on commercial frequencies if you decide to get a business radio license later down the road.  THe offerings that are GMRS specific radios can't do that, they are going to be locked to the GMRS service. 

Yea having them locked down would be nice these seem like a great choice for what were looking for are you aware of what licenses are required to use these

[Guest IDontKnowAboutRadios]

12 hours ago, nokones said:

Forestry Work = Meaning what exactly? Planting trees, fighting fires, or clearing out dead tree branches or thining the forest?

Depending on what your intention is on how you plan to use your radio will dictate the frequencies you can legally use during your forestry operation. As I suspect, you are most likely a private entity and not a government agency, you may have to acquire a license for use in the Industrial/Business Radio Pool (Part 90) and depending on your activity that will also dictate which radio service frequency you can be licensed on within that Pool. You should familiarize yourself with Part 95.35.

More than likely, you may not be eligible to use GMRS or any freqs in the Personal Radio Service (Part 95) based on your intended use

Public Safety Grade radios would be the Motorola APX series mobiles and portable for the current generation and the Astro 25 Digital Series such as the XTL/XTS series mobiles and portables for the previous generation of radios.

The cost of the APX series is thousands of dollars for new radios and the used radio market is somewhat limited in inventory but less thousands of dollars.

The Astro 25 Digital XTL/XTS series used radio market is plentiful as most of the public safety agencies along with the federal agencies are changing out these radios for the APX series radios. The cost of these radios are very reasonable and these radios should give you plenty of years if not a decade or two of good service use.

You can buy portables for around $200-400 and mobiles for about $400-600 depending on the features and flash codes. Don't get hung up on if you need the Trunking features although most of the used market radios are flashed for Trunking and Digital operation. 

If your communication needs are just analog conventional than you'll should find these radios are almost a dime a dozen.

For the use case, our main job is working on and maintaining oil/gas wells as well as the forest around which occasionally takes us underground which is why we are looking for new ones as it is usually 2-5 miles in the backcountry depending on site-to-site but I don't think we would get the ok to spend thousands on one handheld could you recommend any and the required licensing to use it 

[Guest IDontKnowAboutRadios]

12 hours ago, BoxCar said:

Your best bet would be a commercial license and commercial grade radios. Almost all the radio dealers can help you decide on exactly what radios and the number of frequencies you would need. My suggestion is for VHF itinerant band radios and frequencies, unless you are going to be in the same area for more than a year or two. Then you would want regular business channels still in the VHF band for coverage. Your HQ or base would need a base station and commercial grade antenna system. Be aware though that just having the radios doesn't mean you'll always have contact with your base or handhelds because of the terrain you'll be working in.

We are never in more than one place for more than a month Im aware about the coverage ill take a look into VHF bands thanks

 

[Lscott]

33 minutes ago, Guest IDontKnowAboutRadios said:

For the use case, our main job is working on and maintaining oil/gas wells

Oh-oh. The recommendations just changed. That’s an VERY important point. For safety reasons, fire and explosion, you would be well off to get what are called “intrinsically safe” radios. This might actually be a requirement for your work environment! They are specially fitted normal commercial grades radios but have been specifically sealed to prevent any arcing or sparking from the radio’s internals which can precipitate a gas explosion or fire. The same also applies to the battery packs, external speaker microphones etc.

If you look in the Kenwood catalog they do sell that type of radio for the models I recommend along with the safety rated battery packs.

[WRQC527]

1 hour ago, Guest IDontKnowAboutRadios said:

I would be willing to get the license but I don't want to have to take such a exam as the amateur radio one as long as I can get my guys to do it I'm fine with the getting licenses

The only time you would need to test is for amateur radio. The GMRS license is pay-and-play. $35 for ten years. No test, and pinky swear that you'll go by the rules. Also, amateur radio can't be used for business.

[DONE]

11 hours ago, Guest IDontKnowAboutRadios said:

Yea having them locked down would be nice these seem like a great choice for what were looking for are you aware of what licenses are required to use these

For a commercial license, you are going to want to request Itinerant frequencies.  And you will need to request them for coverage in whatever area you are going to be operating in.  Since you are in the logging industry, you will be moving around obviously.  Not sure what part of the country you operate in, but you can indicate that area, or those states when getting the license. 

Not sure how large an area you would be working for a specific job, or if a repeater would be needed.   If you are trying to cover a number of miles, then a repeater might be required to provide that coverage.  There are repeaters out there that will run off 12 volts.  My advice would be putting the antenna up on a topped tree with some sort of chain mount.  Or if you have a piece of equipment that is stationary throughout the job and is at a higher elevation then that might be an option as well.  Mind you I don't know much about the industry past watching the 'logger show' back in the day. 

I just built something similar to this for a utility contractor that repairs storm damage.  They go out and replace poles and wires that are down from storms.  We set them up with a couple repeaters that were in weatherproof cases that would run on 110 or 12 volt and they would just lash a pipe to the top of a pole and setup there. 

What you don't want to do is get a fixed location license and then move around with it.  What I mean by that is if you are in Salem Oregon and get a license for there, you can't take that equipment to Portland and operate on that same frequency legally.  You will no doubt be interfering with someone that has that same frequency there.  SO you have to have a different type of license to remain legal. 

Operating on GMRS can't really be legally done since it's not really for business use.  So again, Itinerant licenses are the way to go here.  And there is NOT a license that you can get in the USA that will allow you to operate in Canada either.  So be aware of that. 

 

EDIT>>>  OIL AND GAS???

Oil and Gas and underground work is going to fall under MSHA regulations in addition to the standard FCC radio stuff.

As mentioned you are going to need radios that are rated for the environments you are working in. 

Honestly, you are going to need professional direction here and NOT the ramblings of some keyboard hero's on a hobby radio site.   Not getting that professional assistance and using the wrong stuff will catch up to you when some MSHA inspector shows up and looks at your radios and slaps you with fines and shuts down your operation.  When you mentioned 'Forestry' as being your industry, there isn't the requirements for specific radios there.  As mentioned by @LScott “intrinsically safe” radios are going to be required for any operations around a well or underground.  That rating insures that the radios will not be a possible ignition source in an explosive gas environment.  Using radios that are not rated as “intrinsically safe” will get you a hefty fine and shut down by an inspector.  And for underground, I believe MSHA requires radio for all personnel working below ground. 

The underground thing becomes a different issue.  Obviously there would be little to no coverage below ground.  If you are working in mines, then that has already been dealt with by the mine owner.  They may have contractor radios for use in there facility, or you can get an MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) giving you permission to have your radios programmed to their radio system.  It would cover what operational abilities you would have when doing so and what types of communication was allowed.  Meaning what types of radio traffic would be permissible, just emergency, emergency and operational, or emergency, operational and general.  But you and your crew would be expected to abide by that when operating on their system. 

Again, this is stuff to be looked at by a professional radio vendor and not just some guys on the Internet.  Yes, I am in the radio industry.  But I am in Ohio and not where you are, so I ain't really trying to push you to a specific radio vendor, but knowing enough about MSHA regulations since we have customers that fall under their regulations, I can say that not getting proper advice on this isn't a good way to proceed.

 

[nokones]

12 hours ago, Guest IDontKnowAboutRadios said:

For the use case, our main job is working on and maintaining oil/gas wells as well as the forest around which occasionally takes us underground which is why we are looking for new ones as it is usually 2-5 miles in the backcountry depending on site-to-site but I don't think we would get the ok to spend thousands on one handheld could you recommend any and the required licensing to use it 

Then more than likely you will need Intrinsically Safe certified radios, the one with the Green Dot. An used Mototola or Kenwood Intrinsically Safe radio would more than meet your needs for just a few hundred dollars and will last you many years.

As for applying for a frequency, it appears  you will need to apply for an Industrial/Business Pool IP frequency and coordinate your application with a Petroleum Frequency Coordinator. I think you would be better off to consider the VHF Highband for your operation.

As mentioned in the above response, an itinerant frequency for the reasons stated would be easier to apply for and won't require any frequency coordination or other application approvals. However, I believe all the itinerant freqs can only be licensed as a mobile (MOI) with only 5-6 watts of RF power. I'm not sure if a base station, even a Temp Base (FBT), operation would be approved with an itinerant freq. You may have to have that operation approved by a Frequency Coordinator.

 

[BoxCar]

The itinerant frequencies can be licensed nationwide. For a frequency coordinator, I would recommend the Forestry Conservation group FCCA although any Part 90.35 Business/Industrial Land Transport coordinator can license the frequencies. A commercial radio shop will be well acquainted with the necessary coordinators. I'd also suggest they shop with the different coordinators, as they will often cut prices to get the business.

[OffRoaderX]

I was also going to suggest a Business (LMR) license - If you pay a service to do the application for you it is actually a very simple process and most only charge a couple hundred $$ - I just go my own LMR/Business license and 5 authorized frequencies from a place called Kemp Wireless in Oregon (yes, I paid full price) - I all needed was a credit card, 15-minutes on the phone with them, and I had to sign one form.  But many radio-resellers can do it for you.

With the Business/LMR license, you just use the radios on your assigned frequency(s) - no need for callsigns or anything.

[Radioguy7268]

9 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

With the Business/LMR license, you just use the radios on your assigned frequency(s) - no need for callsigns or anything.

Business/LMR users are still held to an ID requirement by the FCC - but if they use a repeater most of them just allow the repeater to use the automated Morse Code ID. Most business users who are just using simplex routinely ignore the Callsign/ID requirement - but that doesn't mean the requirement doesn't exist.

Call a local radio shop in the are who has experience with what your doing. Internet advice is full of holes.

[OffRoaderX]

I guess i'm going to jail..  along with the thousands of other business/LMR users in my area.

But @Radioguy7268 is correct -there is a rule and I stood corrected.

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, Radioguy7268 said:

Business/LMR users are still held to an ID requirement by the FCC - but if they use a repeater most of them just allow the repeater to use the automated Morse Code ID. Most business users who are just using simplex routinely ignore the Callsign/ID requirement - but that doesn't mean the requirement doesn't exist.

Call a local radio shop in the are who has experience with what your doing. Internet advice is full of holes.

 

1 hour ago, OffRoaderX said:

I guess i'm going to jail..  along with the thousands of other business/LMR users in my area.

But @Radioguy7268 is correct -there is a rule and I stood corrected.

 

There are many exemptions waving station identification for Part 90.  Especially digitally encrypted communications where the ID is embedded in the signal, when the Commission is provided keys sufficient to decipher the data transmission.

[nokones]

On 3/30/2024 at 9:20 PM, Radioguy7268 said:

Call a local radio shop in the are who has experience with what your doing. Internet advice is full of holes.

There are various entities that provide the subject service for future and existing licensees. Radio Shops, some certified Part 90 Freq Coordinators, and Radio Associations and Organizations, of course for a nominal fee. As a word of caution, and I highly recommend that you be the administrative/control point of contact and not the service provider. If you are not the point of contact you will not get any notification for any FCC matters if your service provider contact information is out of date or no longer provides that service or is out of business and if you let your license expire you more than likely will have to start the whole application process over again.