GMRS Transitioning to Hobbyist-Type Service?

[WRXR255]

4 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

No, I really did miss his joke. But I agree that a lot of people don’t get my humor.  I don’t blame them. I often end up wondering why I thought that what I said was funny.

My fault for my poor attempts at humor is usually alcohol related... what i thought funny, edgy, or in the worst case, "Everyone should get this" is not always as good in the end.

FWIW, I accept my call out when needed, and have no grudge or animosity for them at all.

Were all ok  8-)

[SteveShannon]

1 hour ago, WRXR255 said:

My fault for my poor attempts at humor is usually alcohol related... what i thought funny, edgy, or in the worst case, "Everyone should get this" is not always as good in the end.

FWIW, I accept my call out when needed, and have no grudge or animosity for them at all.

Were all ok  8-)

My fiance took me to her home to meet her parents' friends.  She invited these two very prim and proper spinster sisters.  When they were walking out after a very nice lunch I said "I really enjoyed you ladies; you're just as full of shit as the rest of us."  I still remember the look on everyone's face.  My fiancée was absolutely mortified. Apparently these ladies were not the kind of people to talk to like that.

We've been married for 45 years now and I still don't bring it up very often. 

[wrci350]

9 hours ago, Lscott said:

Well the frequency limitation is one. Second there are no real mobile radios available, and at a two watt limit on power there isn't much incentive to design and market one either. 

There's one, at least.  Not sure how many people actually buy them.  $369.99 is a lot of money for a 2 watt, 5 channel radio.

https://www.buytwowayradios.com/wouxun-kg-1000m.html

I just looked on eBay and you can get a 25W 4 channel Motorola CDM750 for less than half the cost.  I'm sure you could do better from one of the used Motorola dealers.  Of course that radio isn't type-accepted for MURS.

As far as MURS HTs, the Wouxun KG-805M is $79.99.  There are a couple cheaper options (Radioddity MU-5 is $35 or less, BTech MURS V-2 about twice that) on Amazon.  But there aren't a glut of MURS options.

[amaff]

If we're talking non-type-accepted mobile radios, there's LOTS that'll do MURS. My DB20-G for example. Pretty much any unlocked VHF radio is workable for those.

[Ian]

Bluntly what will MURS do that FRS won't?  

Waste your money.  ;-)

(And I say this as someone who's all in on the service!)

Like I said, few products; fewer compelling.

[KevinJ]

On 8/5/2024 at 4:41 PM, WRVG829 said:

GMRS is for what people will use it for, nothing more, nothing less.  I have a "practical communications" use -- comms for our CERT team.  I also use the radio to talk to the guys on the local repeater system because I'm interested in learning new stuff about the hobby.  Although I've been licensed for a couple of years, I just really started using GMRS a few months ago.  I now have *four* GMRS radios in addition to my ham radio equipment.  So I'm a "radio hobbyist" too.  The Queen seems to get pissy when the hobbyist set wants to lecture, and I don't blame him, uh her, uh it, uh Randy.  Telling someone what they can or can't do, what they should or should not do, or being a "rules lawyer" is rarely appreciated by anyone in any walk of life, including radios.   Don't be that person, and I'll bet you can be virtually anything else and be accepted in the hobby.  Even the Queen, although there can only be one.   

As a member of not just the radio/coms hobby/community, but also the guns and cars hobby/communities, I gave this line a standing ovation and IMHO am dubbing it "Best quote I have ever read on an internet forum to date"

[Lscott]

6 hours ago, wrci350 said:

There's one, at least.  Not sure how many people actually buy them.  $369.99 is a lot of money for a 2 watt, 5 channel radio.

Thanks. That has to be the first one I’ve ever seen.

[WRKC935]

I seriously doubt the FCC is going to stop the influx of people getting into GMRS as 'hobbyists' for a few reasons.

First is the application that it was meant for meant it was hardly used for that specific reason.  About the only legal reason to have GMRS, with a repeater would have been family farming operations.  And anyone outside of the family would have needed a license to operate the radios.  I actually spoke to someone the other day that was of the belief that you could ONLY talk to people that were covered under your license (family) and while you could share a repeater, you couldn't communicate with other repeater users that were not under your license.  The application for something like that is such a small part of the user base of GMRS that it would almost not exist if that were the case.

GMRS operators are becoming a source of people being motivated to go further and get a ham license.  Folks get into using GMRS, and then realize that there is more to do with ham and get their license for that.  Of course that puts more money in the FCC bank account.  So screwing with GMRS slows down the income stream from both GMRS and ham licenses. 

Lastly, if they know their history, they know to not screw with a working service by making changes to it for no good reason.  They might remember making CB 40 channels and killing the service.  When they did that, all the 23 channel radios were obsolete over night.  Because consumers want the newest, latest thing, think iPhone crowds when a new one hits the market.  Making a massive change to the service like adding digital, more channels, something else to the service and requiring a new radio.  Then think about what those additions might do to a service that is wide band analog, like adding digital and therefore digital interference to the channels, it quickly becomes a problem with complaints.  Complaints require man power to investigate.  And if it's a service that isn't controlled by frequency coordination then it will turn into a mess and lots of calls.

I have said before, people are typically unwilling to assist with things like repeater maintenance but if their free repeater service goes away, they will call and complain in short order that 'their' radio / repeater isn't working and that's just not acceptable.  Interference is not going to be acceptable to the masses and they will call the FCC to complain, so if it's not there, there is nothing to complain about.

 

[SteveShannon]

On 8/5/2024 at 1:25 PM, WRVG829 said:

I went through the experience of trying to get my local rescue group licensed for amateur radio.  Maybe 25% were capable of doing it without much help just with self-study.  Another 25% were able to get the license with a lot of hand holding.  The remaining 50% couldn't do it, period.  They didn't have a technical background, had no knowledge of how RF and electricity work, and no interest in doing something that other services allow you to do without an exam.  If you're in that latter group, GMRS is the most reasonable choice.  I got 100% of mostly those same people equipped with a GMRS license and radio within a month.  YMMV.

Good job!  A commercial license might have been another alternative to GMRS for this, though.

[gortex2]

1 hour ago, SteveShannon said:

Good job!  A commercial license might have been another alternative to GMRS for this, though.

yup. Expecially if its remotely public safety. Over the years we have had hams join our SAR team and want everyone to use ham. They dont get that most members spend tons of time training on all the other tasks they do. The radio is a tool for them. We use public safety frequencies. We have multiple licenses for all over our area for this reason. I wouldn't put any of my SAR operations on GMRS or ham for that matter. I know some of the k9 folks use FRS for training but that the extent of it. 

[Lscott]

2 hours ago, WRKC935 said:

Lastly, if they know their history, they know to not screw with a working service by making changes to it for no good reason.  They might remember making CB 40 channels and killing the service.  When they did that, all the 23 channel radios were obsolete over night.

Oops, I guess they didn't learn. They added FM to the service now.

So how many people would trash their old obsolete 40 channel AM only CB to get one with AM/FM?

[intermod]

3 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

Good job!  A commercial license might have been another alternative to GMRS for this, though.

This is where many groups should really start.  The organization can pay for one commercial (or public safety) license for ~$300 (for 10 years) and be assigned one callsign that everyone uses.   As opposed to every member having to figure out CORES, FRNs, and pay $35 for a GMRS license.   

GMRS may have been used originally due to the low-cost radios, but Part 90 radios are just as low cost today. 

Eventually PII (Personally Identifiable Information) will be enforced for CERT and SAR organizations, and FCC rules permit encrypted transmissions on commercial and public safety channels.    And they allow for digital for greater clarity and capacity.  And they can be linked easily and without controversy.  And have slightly greater protection from interference, particularly if the groups chooses to use public safety catagory channels.               

Downsides?

[kirk5056]

Ham type "rag chewing" drives me crazy.  If that is what meant by "hobbyist" then I try to avoid it.  I have found the best way to defeat these rag chewers is to change channels.  

Since I only use PL filtered channels for my communication needs I rarely hear them.  The only time I DO hear them is when I scan unfiltered frequencies.   Or when they are very close or very powerful so they bleed over on my channels.  For this reason I mostly use channels 1-7 because I can avoid 50w mobile/bases and powerful repeaters.  I have read that there are about 120 "standard" PL (CTCSS/DCS) filters.  If that is true then we have over 2,500 possible channels (freq + PL) (120 x 22=2,640).

I am in favor of these rag chewers because the more users we have the more options the manufactures will give us.

[Lscott]

51 minutes ago, kirk5056 said:

I have read that there are about 120 "standard" PL (CTCSS/DCS) filters.  If that is true then we have over 2,500 possible channels (freq + PL) (120 x 22=2,640).

You only have 22 channels.

Using CTCSS/DCS you just have more choices on blocking what you don't want to hear on those 22 channels.

[intermod]

But we can get 25 mile range on this portable radio, right?  

[kirk5056]

"You only have 22 channels. 

Using CTCSS/DCS you just have more choices on blocking what you don't want to hear on those 22 channels."

 

You only have 22 FREQUENECIES! I think a "channel" is what I use to communicate, if you cant contact me because your PL filter does not match mine THEN we are on different channels!!

I guess you can define "channel" any way you want but it seems to me that "frequency" better defines what you mean.

[WRXP381]

3 minutes ago, kirk5056 said:

"You only have 22 channels. 

Using CTCSS/DCS you just have more choices on blocking what you don't want to hear on those 22 channels."

 

You only have 22 FREQUENECIES! I think a "channel" is what I use to communicate, if you cant contact me because your PL filter does not match mine THEN we are on different channels!!

I guess you can define "channel" any way you want but it seems to me that "frequency" better defines what you mean.

No a “channel” has nothing to do with tones.   It’s called a channel because it is a universal set of assigned frequencies that are all the same 1-22 on FRS and gmrs.  Just like tv “channels” 2,5,11,13 ect.  We call those channels but they are indeed frequencies.    Plus gmrs assigned matching pairs of repeater “channels”.   Then on top of that you have tones that can be set on any “channel”.  We can be on the same channel and have different tones we are still on the same channel.  One may not just randomly define a channel how ever they want.   

[kirk5056]

OK, I am open to learn new things.  If I say I want to talk to you on "channel" 19, is there a way to communicate if, or if not, there is a PL filter involved?

If we agree on a "channel" AND a PL filter what would that be called? 

 And if we use that same combination over a period of time do we have to continue to say "channel 19 with code 141.3" or could we just say meet me on the "trail" channel?

[WRPG745]

7 hours ago, intermod said:

Eventually PII (Personally Identifiable Information) will be enforced for CERT and SAR organizations,

@intermod, any FCC, FEMA or other source for this, I'm interested to know more, thx

[AdmiralCochrane]

1 hour ago, kirk5056 said:

OK, I am open to learn new things.  If I say I want to talk to you on "channel" 19, is there a way to communicate if, or if not, there is a PL filter involved?

If we agree on a "channel" AND a PL filter what would that be called? 

 And if we use that same combination over a period of time do we have to continue to say "channel 19 with code 141.3" or could we just say meet me on the "trail" channel?

It's called a channel and PL tone

You don't have to say anything.

[marcspaz]

The PL tone (or DCS) is a squelch tool. It limits what opens your squelch, but doesn't give you another channel. 

For example, let's say someone is talking on a specific frequency/channel you are monitoring and you can't hear them due to having a tone set. If someone transmits on that frequency with the tone you have programmed, you will hear every station that is transmitting, because the conditions to open the squelch have been met.

[WRUU653]

Most importantly just because you have a tone set and can’t hear other traffic doesn’t mean it’s not there. You could be walking all over other people on the same channel. Calling it another channel implies that you are broadcasting on another frequency just because you have tones set. Which you are not. 

[WRUE951]

Folks illegally linking repeaters are making a mess out of GMRS and yes the FCC is ‘waking up’ to it and indeed are getting stacks of complaints of this illegal practice.   Will the FCC actually do something??   “some people’ take for granite and think not.   But I’m having a feeling, based on conversations I’ve had that there may be a surprise in the near future,   I don’t know what that means but I do know that fire is warm.  How hot it gets is anyone’s guess 

[OffRoaderX]

14 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

yes the FCC is ‘waking up’ to it and indeed are getting stacks of complaints of this illegal practice

Still waiting to find out what your source is for these "stacks of complaints" or what, exactly the FCCs actions of "waking up" to it are, and what that source is.  Because otherwise, you're just telling fairy tales whilst everyone laughs ...

[WRUU653]

18 minutes ago, WRUE951 said:

Folks illegally linking repeaters are making a mess out of GMRS and yes the FCC

Folks! Step right up to yet another illegal linking thread take over. I was wondering how long before this thread also became a topic on linking.

Is no thread safe? Perhaps FRS or MURS? Stay tuned.