Who owns the repeater channels?

[Guest Old baldy]

I’ve been reading through past discussions and was especially interested by a lengthy discussion about linked repeaters

that got me thinking about who controls the channels available in a given geographic area. 
I know that no one really “owns” the channels and that they are a shared resource but my question is since there are only 8 repeater channels available, what happens when all 8 are already in use or controlled by someone else? 

im not interested at this point in setting up my own repeater at this time because im just starting out and plan on using inexpensive hit radios to start with. But suppose i eventually want to set up my own. How does it work? Can someone say “ sorry i was here first” and then deny your use if their private repeater and in effect prevent you from using your own? 
 

 

[BoxCar]

2 hours ago, Guest Old baldy said:

I’ve been reading through past discussions and was especially interested by a lengthy discussion about linked repeaters

that got me thinking about who controls the channels available in a given geographic area. 
I know that no one really “owns” the channels and that they are a shared resource but my question is since there are only 8 repeater channels available, what happens when all 8 are already in use or controlled by someone else? 

im not interested at this point in setting up my own repeater at this time because im just starting out and plan on using inexpensive hit radios to start with. But suppose i eventually want to set up my own. How does it work? Can someone say “ sorry i was here first” and then deny your use if their private repeater and in effect prevent you from using your own? 
 

 

You are correct in that no one person or entity (other than the FCC) owns or controls the channels. No person or group can stop you from using any of the channels allowed by your license or device. You are free to receive any channel or frequency, however, you are allowed to transmit on authorized channels.

With only 8 channels or frequencies available for repeaters the key concept is sharing use. The rules clearly state that no user is not to intentionally cause interference, and they must accept any interference to their use of the channel. In the situation you asked about, all channels being in use, it then comes down to sharing and accepting the fact you will both cause and receive interference. The users of a single channel should agree between themselves what type of interference is acceptable and how much is considered reasonable. It is against the rule about sharing if one user deliberately causes other users of the frequency interference by causing their transmissions to be interfered with just as any retaliation against an interferer is not allowed.

[Socalgmrs]

You share.  That’s it.  Here in Southern California we have many huge repeaters that cover very large areas many with radiuses of over 100miles. These are not linked repeaters.  All 8 pairs are used several times over.  Then on top of that we have 1000s of kids in back yards,!road crews, Walmarts ect on 15-22 also.  Tones help dramatically but other than that you share.    Unfortunately we have many many people and groups that think it fun to cause malicious interference to other groups and repeaters.  But every one else does their best to share and it works out fine for most people.   

[WRUU653]

@BoxCar pretty much nailed it in his post.
If you decided to add a repeater in a busy area I would try the least used, furthest away from you frequency with different tones. Of course if some of those repeaters are open for you to use you may find you don’t need to add another. 

[Socalgmrs]

1 minute ago, WRUU653 said:

@BoxCar pretty much nailed it in his post.
If you decided to add a repeater in a busy area I would try the least used, furthest away from you frequency with different tones. Of course if some of those repeaters are open for you to use you may find you don’t need to add another. 

I would agree with this also.  Many times a new repeater is not needed.   Most people do not need a repeater at all.  Many times a  communication issue can be solved with a good base station and good mobile units. Usually for less money and head ache. 

[Guest old baldy]

Thanks for your replies. I certainly agree that sharing is the only option. My intention is to hopefully communicate with my wife who works about 12 miles from our home. There is no clear line of sight and if we are unable to connect with mobile radios then my plan B would be to try a repeater. While I don't have access to a 600 ft tower, I could probably get an antenna up 30 - 40 ft, high enough to clear the houses and most trees. Using an online line of sight calculator shows the radio horizon at 12 miles assuming home antenna at 40 ft, and mobile antenna at 6 ft

[Guest old baldy]

thanks for the information

 

[KramerDMZ]

Thanks for this thread.  I'm new to GMRS as well with one of the features being hitting a repeater.  In my area, there are two strong ones that overlap.  One sounds like an active Zello channel.  That tech doesn't appeal to me since it's reliant on the internet.  I've been searching through discussions here about how best to handle.  Your comments about sharing was very helpful.  Thanks --

[GreggInFL]

5 hours ago, WRUU653 said:

Of course if some of those repeaters are open for you to use you may find you don’t need to add another. 

This is important.  I too was eager to set up my own repeater on day one.  Now?  We just use an open one down the street.

[Guest Roha]

On 10/30/2024 at 11:38 AM, Socalgmrs said:

You share.  That’s it.  Here in Southern California we have many huge repeaters that cover very large areas many with radiuses of over 100miles. These are not linked repeaters.  All 8 pairs are used several times over.  Then on top of that we have 1000s of kids in back yards,!road crews, Walmarts ect on 15-22 also.  Tones help dramatically but other than that you share.    Unfortunately we have many many people and groups that think it fun to cause malicious interference to other groups and repeaters.  But every one else does their best to share and it works out fine for most people.   

Somebody from California always steps in to make the rest of the country jealous !"joking " It's great that you have a system like that. I am in Fl. and we have enough to get by. Im going to pitch in and set up a 50 watt repeater in my home town.

[amaff]

I do.

[Hoppyjr]

Can’t speak to ownership, but I do believe Randy is the Queen of GMRS.

[nokones]

On 10/30/2024 at 8:38 AM, Socalgmrs said:

You share.  That’s it.  Here in Southern California we have many huge repeaters that cover very large areas many with radiuses of over 100miles. These are not linked repeaters.  All 8 pairs are used several times over.  Then on top of that we have 1000s of kids in back yards,!road crews, Walmarts ect on 15-22 also.  Tones help dramatically but other than that you share.    Unfortunately we have many many people and groups that think it fun to cause malicious interference to other groups and repeaters.  But every one else does their best to share and it works out fine for most people.   

It is essentially the same way in the Phoenix Metro Region. As you drive throughout the Valley and you scan channels 1-7 and 15-22, you are always locked on a channel and when the channel releases, it is immediately locked on another channel. FRS traffic on channels 15-22 has picked up tremendously in the past year or so.

As for the number of repeaters in the Valley Metro and surrounding areas it works out very well. The 550, 575, 600, 700, and 725 channel pairs are high level sites and the 625, 650, and 675 channel pairs are low level sites and so far no one has come along and put up a repeater on a channel pair currently being used for a low-level site, on a high-level site, probably because those low-level channel pairs are well spread out and reused many times.

We are very fortunate with the 550, 575, and 600 channel pairs being on high-level sites (4,000+ for the 550 channel pair to 7,000+ for the 575 and 600 channel pairs in elevation) that we have very good extended range coverage throughout the hender-lands surrounding the Valley for Off-Road Trail Comm, and if need, for emergencies.  Cellular coverage off-road is non-existent .

[WQAI363]

Anyone is allowed to own and set up a repeater; however, when it comes to the repeater pair channel, no one can claim ownership according to FCC rules and regulations. These rules state that no one can prohibit other licensed individuals from using any GMRS channel. It's possible for me to establish a repeater on 462.5750/467.5750 using the same PL as LEARN, and they could not object provided I do not interfere with their operations. Nevertheless, it would be sensible to use a different tone for the input to avoid any potential issues.

Now, on the subject of using MDC Signaling on GMRS, especial for non-public safety use. It shouldn't be allowed. Using the ROGER BEEP is fine as long as you can transmit ROGER BEEP on repeaters, but MDC nah. MDC has a place in Public Safety and Commercial Businesses, but for Civilian Use.

 

[nokones]

50 minutes ago, WQAI363 said:

Anyone is allowed to own and set up a repeater; however, when it comes to the repeater pair channel, no one can claim ownership according to FCC rules and regulations. These rules state that no one can prohibit other licensed individuals from using any GMRS channel. It's possible for me to establish a repeater on 462.5750/467.5750 using the same PL as LEARN, and they could not object provided I do not interfere with their operations. Nevertheless, it would be sensible to use a different tone for the input to avoid any potential issues.

Now, on the subject of using MDC Signaling on GMRS, especial for non-public safety use. It shouldn't be allowed. Using the ROGER BEEP is fine as long as you can transmit ROGER BEEP on repeaters, but MDC nah. MDC has a place in Public Safety and Commercial Businesses, but for Civilian Use.

 

Well, the rules don't prohibit and some repeater owners use it for authenticating authorized users for their repeater. So, with that being said, with is the problem on this subject?

[marcspaz]

Just to touch a bit more on the whole sharing concept... lets talk about simplex.  Lets say you are on channel 15.  No repeater... you just want to talk radio to radio.  If someone else is on the frequency, common methods are to either wait until the ongoing call is over or request a break in their conversation to call someone expecting to hear from you on that channel.  In most cases, if people are just killing time by chatting on the radio, they have zero issue yielding the channel for a few minutes for someone else to use the channel.

 

Well, channel sharing with repeaters should be handled the same way.  Use a tone squelch on your repeater that is not already in use on a neighboring radio, so you don't have to hear everyone else talking.  However, before you transmit (start a new conversation) open your squelch and monitor the channel.  Make sure one of the other repeaters on the same channel are not in use.  If the frequency is clear, just like on simplex, use the repeater.  If the frequency is in use, wait your turn or ask for a quick break to use your machine, just like on simplex.  While you are using the repeater, keep the monitor on, so if someone else either on simplex or on another repeater that shares the channel would like to use the frequency, you can heard them call you and ask for a break.

 

That is really about as simple as it gets.  Listen before you transmit and learn how to use tone/digital squelching and the monitor features.  These 3 things will make an otherwise crowed 8 channels, a fun and useful space.

[AdmiralCochrane]

Should be, but I'm pretty sure this is above the skill and understanding of 999 out of every 1,000 GMRS licensees.  Probably above the equipment capability of the majority as well.

[WQAI363]

2 hours ago, nokones said:

Well, the rules don't prohibit and some repeater owners use it for authenticating authorized users for their repeater. So, with that being said, with is the problem on this subject?

True!

I meant in regard to GMRS, it's more of Gentlemans that respect the wishes of the repeater owner or trustee. However, in Emergency and it has to be a true emergency, forget all and just call for assistance. Explain later.

[marcspaz]

1 hour ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

Should be, but I'm pretty sure this is above the skill and understanding of 999 out of every 1,000 GMRS licensees.  Probably above the equipment capability of the majority as well.

 

I definitely agree with the human factor part, which is why I am sharing. However, i don't recall ever seeing a GMRS radio that you can't turn tone squelch off nor having a monitor button. I think it's mostly educational and getting people to be courteous.

[AdmiralCochrane]

I'm talking about

7 hours ago, marcspaz said:

Make sure one of the other repeaters on the same channel are not in use.  If the frequency is clear, just like on simplex, use the repeater.  If the frequency is in use, wait your turn or ask for a quick break to use your machine, just like on simplex.  While you are using the repeater, keep the monitor on, so if someone else either on simplex or on another repeater that shares the channel would like to use the frequency, you can heard them call you and ask for a break.

One would have to monitor the channel bare with no tone, then switch to your channel with tone ... how could you keep monitor without tone on while using tone unless you had dual receiver?  Not all radios have dual and not all users would begin to be able to do this.

[marcspaz]

54 minutes ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

I'm talking about

One would have to monitor the channel bare with no tone, then switch to your channel with tone ... how could you keep monitor without tone on while using tone unless you had dual receiver?  Not all radios have dual and not all users would begin to be able to do this.

 

You can use a transmit tone to unlock a repeater without using tone squelching on your mobile/handheld radio.  That is a standard feature on every radio I have owned in the last 20 years.

[SteveShannon]

7 hours ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

I'm talking about

One would have to monitor the channel bare with no tone, then switch to your channel with tone ... how could you keep monitor without tone on while using tone unless you had dual receiver?  Not all radios have dual and not all users would begin to be able to do this.

Just push the button marked “Mon” or “Moni”.  You might want to turn down the volume first. That’s exactly what it’s for, temporarily listening to a frequency with no squelch.

[nokones]

8 hours ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

I'm talking about

One would have to monitor the channel bare with no tone, then switch to your channel with tone ... how could you keep monitor without tone on while using tone unless you had dual receiver?  Not all radios have dual and not all users would begin to be able to do this.

Real radios have a monitor feature that when enabled, will defeat the PL (CTCSS) by disabling the decoder until the monitor feature is turned back off thus, reactivating the decoder, just by a push of a soft programmable button. The POS CCRs don't have this feature and if they have a monitor feature, it usually just blows squelch by a momentary push of a button.

[LeoG]

On 11/7/2024 at 3:20 PM, marcspaz said:

Just to touch a bit more on the whole sharing concept... lets talk about simplex.  Lets say you are on channel 15.  No repeater... you just want to talk radio to radio.  If someone else is on the frequency, common methods are to either wait until the ongoing call is over or request a break in their conversation to call someone expecting to hear from you on that channel.  In most cases, if people are just killing time by chatting on the radio, they have zero issue yielding the channel for a few minutes for someone else to use the channel.

 

Well, channel sharing with repeaters should be handled the same way.  Use a tone squelch on your repeater that is not already in use on a neighboring radio, so you don't have to hear everyone else talking.  However, before you transmit (start a new conversation) open your squelch and monitor the channel.  Make sure one of the other repeaters on the same channel are not in use.  If the frequency is clear, just like on simplex, use the repeater.  If the frequency is in use, wait your turn or ask for a quick break to use your machine, just like on simplex.  While you are using the repeater, keep the monitor on, so if someone else either on simplex or on another repeater that shares the channel would like to use the frequency, you can heard them call you and ask for a break.

 

That is really about as simple as it gets.  Listen before you transmit and learn how to use tone/digital squelching and the monitor features.  These 3 things will make an otherwise crowed 8 channels, a fun and useful space.

Don't need to open squelch if you have a meter.  If it's showing incoming then you wait.

[AdmiralCochrane]

So ... this depends on whether the radio has tone defeat and whether it has a meter.  I still posit that this is above the average GMRS owner.