Soladaddy

I wouldn't say changing from WB to NB is an easy way to get rid of GMRS. The real question is just how many people are running NB now and don't even know it? I see frequent questions about Midland equipment which seems to be NB only. Apparently they sell enough of them. If the FCC switched to NB those users wouldn't notice and most likely wouldn't care since their radios would continue to work reasonably well after the switch.
 
The question of how it would impact repeater owners and users all depends on what equipment they use. If the repeater owner used old Part 90 radios that have both WB and NB capability the switch wouldn't be all that big of a deal. Same for ordinary users. In my particular case most of the HT's I have include both WB and NB functionality. All I need to do is fire up the computer, dig out the programming cables, read the codes plugs, switch bandwidth and then writing them back. Done. A bit of work but not a show stopper. Most of my radios already have dual sets of memories programmed, one for WB and another for NB. Yes it's a pain to flip from one to another depending on bandwidth but I can do it when necessary.
 
Your last point is an excellent one. Sooner or later the FCC is likely to address this with another rule change "tweak". Expecting FRS radios to disappear to solve the problem isn't realistic. There are far too many of them. Perhaps as a group we could start a move towards NB operation for those that have the equipment. After a period of time, with enough GMRS users have switched, any potential forced switch by the FCC won't be so painful.
 
Also a suggestion by others changing the rules to make GMRS the primary service and FRS secondary likely will fail too. People purchased the old combo FRS/GMRS radios, never read the instructions advising the necessity of getting a GMRS license, or just didn't care and used all the channels anyway. Expecting those kinds of people to respect, understand or yield the frequency to the primary user will result in about the same compliance experience, little to none.

Hey folks!  I know I said I was going to wait a few days... possibly a week... before my GMRS-50X1 features review, but I spent hours using this radio today and I had a great time.  I figured I would just go ahead and get it out there.
 
For the features review, I am going to start with the Cons this time.  Since the quasi-tech review ended with the focus on the negatives, I would like to end this review with a positive vibe.  Please keep in mind, this is purely opinion based after using the radio.
 
There are tons of features... I am only going to cover what I believe would be the most common/popular to use among most people.
 
 
Cons -
1.) While talking simplex to a station that is closer than 2 miles, I had to use low power, NFM and turn the mic gain down to 1.  If not, the person I was talking to complained about audio clipping and audible popping sounds.  After 2 miles, I could turn the mic gain back up and use WB FM.
 
2.) The display is going to be both in the Pros and Cons section.  As some are aware, I daily drive a Jeep Wrangler.  For at least 50% of the year, my Jeep has no roof and no doors.  That fact brought out a big drawback for me.
 
The display has no means of adjusting the brightness.  Regardless of what I did, while the sun was out and the roof and doors were off, the display was 100% washed out.  I literally could not tell the radio was on by looking at the display.  At first, I put the soft top on, and the display was still heavily washed out, but was usable.  I had to put on my top and my doors with 20% light transmission tint on the windows, before the display was good to use.
 
Another drawback for the display is, there is a lot of very useful information in a tiny little spot.  It takes a bit of focus to look at the display and get a feel for exactly what is going on.  This is not good if you are driving and want to make a quick change.  I found that I had to pull over to be safe while making minor adjustments.
 
2.) They advertise that it has NOAA radio built-in, but it really doesn't.  The VFO covers a frequency spectrum that includes those frequencies.  Not a big deal, but it is up to you to manually tune to those channels and save them to memory. 
 
3.) You can't add new GMRS saved channels that are capable of transmitting.  On my iCom, I have multiple saved channels for channel 15, for example.  One with no DPL, one with tone coding and one with digital coding.  Depending on who I am with or the group I am talking with, I need to use different values.  With the BTech radio, I will have to manually change it every time.  I am assuming this is so they could get FCC type approval.
 
4.) You can't transmit in VFO mode, at all, not even on GMRS frequencies.  This was probably needed for FCC type approval.  Still a drag that you can't manually dial to a GMRS frequency and use it.
 
5.) There are a lot of unneeded features and unusable functions that are locked out.  Seems pointless to even have them because they will likely add a lot of confusion to new operators.  Examples are Remote Stun which remotely disables transmitting and Remote Kill remotely disables transmit and receive.  These are typically repeater management features that a typical GMRS mobile user just doesn't need. 
 
While the aforementioned features are present and function, there are a ton of other repeater related functions that are still in the menu, but you can't change them.  It almost seems like they took a shortcut and used UV-50Xx software and just tweaked it for this radio. 
 
 
Pros -
1.) Range....  My son and I ran a field test today; both simplex and repeater use.  Anyone who has read my quasi-technical opinion review, knows I was less than impress with what I saw.  That said, going from my BTech mobile to my son's HT inside his car, we easily talked 5.5 miles in rough terrain and while I was on the blind side of a hill, 100 feet+ below the top of a hill and there were lots of trees, buildings, etc. between us.
 
I was pretty impressed that we got that range with my son's radio "inside" his car, while driving, and he was using an HT that has a maximum power of 8 watts.  That was more than twice as far as the results we had with another brand mobile I own... using the same HT.
 
Once we were out of simplex range, we switched to a local repeater.  I am 22 miles from the repeater as the crow flies.  I was using low power (2.5w) WB FM.  My son was 19 miles away from the repeater using the HT, on full power and WB FM.  My son gave me the the same signal report as others.  He said there was some noise on low power, but when I switched to medium power (18w) I was full quite and great audio quality.  Given the RF signal quality I observed with analyzing tools, I am seriously shocked.
 
2.) While the display washed out very easily by the sun light, the display colors are extremely flexible, allowing the user to adjust the color contrast, making it easier to read as well as using font color to further segment the many items displayed on the screen.
 
3.) The owners manual states that the device has a 50% duty cycle.  There is no power level specified, but I assume in low power.  My son and I talked for more than 30 minutes, with most of my transmit time being at medium power and at about 35-40% duty cycle.  During our conversation my son reported that there was no noticeable deviation of carrier or modulation.  My receive quality stayed great the whole time as well.
 
4.) The radio only draws 3.5 amps while using the radio at full power, with the cooling fan running.  The radio came with large gauge power wires.  They are not labeled, but they measure about 2mm.  They are likely 14 gauge, rated for 15 amps.  That's a plus, as you are less likely to have voltage drop over the length of the wire and the fuse will pop long before the wires become a fire risk.
 
5.) While its not very useful for most cars/trucks, it does receive commercial FM Radio.  This is great feature for vehicles that don't have a radio, such as ATV's, older work trucks, construction equipment, etc.
 
6.) You are able to monitor up to 4 frequencies and/or channels at once.  The ability to mix monitoring VFO and Memory channels can be pretty handy.
 
7.) A cool feature that this radio has is, you can sync the displays in pairs of two.  This can be a pretty neat feature.  I set display A (top left) and display B (bottom left) to be in sync.  This means when I change the channel on Channel A, channel B changes as well.  The inverse also occurs.  This allows a user to do things like have the channel Name displayed and the frequency displayed at the same time. You don't have to guess where you are if you are using channel names.
 
8.) This unit displays the DPL code and method on the screen.  This is awesome, because you don't have to guess if your DPL is set or to what value.  Its right there to read.
 
9.) This unit has a feature that is getting more popular; DPL scanning.  If there is a group that is using DPL and you want to be part of the conversation, you can have the radio scan tone squelch and DCS values while the other station is transmitting and the radio will detect the value that the group is using.
 
 
Indifferent -
Something that is not really a pro or con... since we can only transmit on the hard-coded GMRS channels, 225 additional memory channels does not make a lot of sense to me.  I'm sure some will love it.  With the exception of programming the WX channels, I likely wont use any more than that.
 
 
Summary -
Quasi-tech review aside, if you are willing to tolerate some of the technology shortcomings I noticed in my radio (noted in another thread), for a low cost radio, this can be a lot of fun to play with.  Sadly, the display washout is a deal-breaker for me, personally.  However, I think I am in the minority there.
 
In short, I am not going to recommend or condemn the radio.  It's not for me, even with all the cool features.  That said, I leave it to you to use my two threads as a tool to make an informed decision.  I'm just 1 guy with one radio... but there it is.
 
Thanks,
Spaz

GMRS - mainly talking to people you know within a limited distance - 2 - 50 miles. (unless you are in N GA). Mostly utilitarian communications.
 
ham - mainly talking to people you don't know (unless local repeaters and simplex VHF/UHF). Mostly experimental communications. Last weekend I talked 250 miles on VHF with an omni-directional antenna. That same evening some people with beams were getting 800 miles. All done via FM mode.

Thank you for a useful post. I might be reaching out when my order arrives. 

Well its sure does. I have 1.2:1 SWR on 462 and 467. 

Keep in mind that among the TK880 series, only the -1 has Part 95 certification.

Wait, what? the X200a tunes up on GMRS? I'm move my coax right now.

Today, I put together a new portable repeater antenna setup together.  I do a lot of work with Amateur Radio Emergency Service. Often, we need a repeater setup so our people can run around with HT's and still be able to communicate direct with everyone.
 
The antenna is setup for 2m, 70cm and GMRS.  In all services, the SWR is 1.2:1 or better.  It's sitting on top of a fiberglass mast.
 
The total height is 47 feet from the ground to the top of the antenna. The bottom of the antenna is 40' from the ground. My son Nick is next to it to use as a reference.
 
I tested it out on 2m. Full quiet to another station 40 miles away, with only 5 watts. I'm pretty happy with that. On 70cm and GMRS, I was full quiet to a repeater 22 miles away with just 2 watts.
 
I am pretty happy with this setup.  I am going to be doing a training drill on March 28.  We'll see how it goes.
 
 
 
http://fiveguysracing.com/marc/HAM-GMRS/Pot_2m-440_Repeater_Antenna_2.jpg
 
 
http://fiveguysracing.com/marc/HAM-GMRS/Pot_2m-440_Repeater_Antenna_3.jpg

lol, I know the feeling. Being in IT I like to focus on analog radio to get away from computers.

I didn't thought much of grounding antennas until I moved to my current house and needed every bit of range I could muster. Grounding the antenna made a significant reception difference, as in, it went from ~5 miles max to ~15 miles easy... grounding the antenna did lower the dB floor according to my spectrum analyzer, thus substantially improving reception range.
 
To do grounding I read a lot of advice from people who do commercial tower installations and the NEC guidelines, etc.
 
So, here is what worked for me:
 
I purchased two Times Microwave Arresters, both N female, both Low PIM (low Passive Inter-Modulation), and both are bolted to the metal mast that holds the antenna(s) and the mast (1.25" steel pipe) is grounded using two copper clamps and a 10AWG wire to the house ground rod electrical box.
 
The first arrester is placed right before the antenna, at the top of the mast. The second one is at the bottom of the mast. The short run between the antenna and the first arrester is a 4 foot LMR400 patch, coiled twice and both ends are silver plated connectors for low PIM. Then, from the first arrester (at the top) to the 2nd arrester at the bottom of the mast there is a 20 feet Heliax 1/2" cable run, both are N male ends and tri-metal low PIM connectors. The bottom arrester has a 90 degree elbow (silver plated) and another Heliax 1/2" 6 feet run, (both ends of this cable are also tri-metal low PIM) to the input of the "radio box" ... Inside the radio box I am using MILSPEC RG-214 patch cables with N male silver plated connectors for low PIM. The only connections that have any chrome plating are the antenna's SO239 and the Vertex Standard EVX-5300's mini-UHF connector.
 
As you can see, I ditched all the UHF connectors and my SWR no longer creeps over time due to connectors being exposed to the crap weather. It was a "Copernican turn" for me, as all I had before was 239 stuff... glad I moved away from those, and from chrome plating... which caused a host of problems with the massive 1400 Candelabra tower sitting less than 2 miles from my antenna mast...
 
All my radios are connected to a solar panel array and a 12VDC battery bank, thus not sharing anything electrical with the house, but the negative (ground) of the battery bank is connected to the same ground 10AWG wire the antenna mast is.
 
G.

Interesting discussion, gentlemen.
There is a specific language in Part 95 that specifically, very clearly prohibits simplex repeaters on FRS and CB. There are no such statements in Part 95E. I will find the relevant references later, when have time.
 
Regarding the Argent Data repeater, it is not a repeater, but rather a repeater controller. It uses your (certified, of course!!!) radio to receive, record and transmit if asked, so it does not have to be Part 95 certified. The default setting on ADS-SR1 is to record and do nothing. Only when DTMF "0" is heard on air, then the last recording is transmitted out. Of course, you can configure it as a true parrot repeater and annoy everybody in the range of 5 miles from your location. To deploy such system in urban area would be uncourteous at least.
I use it when camping and hiking deep in the woods. Car with ADS-SR1 connected to TK-880 is parked somewhere (preferably high, but often not). Family is spread out and left for they own devices, some at the river bank, some sleep, some cook, some carve spoons out of pieces of wood. I could be 2 to 7 miles out from the camp. When I need to check on kids and adults, I call out and wait 20-30 seconds for them to answer. No answer heard, I send "0", and TK-880H blasts out my last transmission at 40W, now I've got everybody's attention.

Well, I wouldn't use ham grade gear as the standard to measure the CCRs up against either, when in reality most ham gear is also pretty subpar when compared to commercial or military grade gear. Receiver performance, in particular intermod rejection and selectivity is where most CCRs and ham gear tends to fall flat.
 
The receiver sensitivity is a meaningless figure without taking into account selectivity. The TM-V71a has 0.16 uV sensitivity @ 12 SINAD in VHF/ UHF, which beats the 0.18uV of the IC-7000, and the 0.25uV of the Vertex Standard EVX-5400... but suffers heavily from intermod. When the TM-V71a is tuned to VHF frequencies, the NOAA weather station sitting 2 1/2 miles from home breaks through randomly regardless of whatever frequency you have the radio tuned to. On the other hand, the EVX-5400 hooked to the same antenna, in the same frequency never hears the NOAA station. That is an example of poor receiver performance. The TM-V71a can barely hear anything beyond 10 miles due to the receiver being saturated by the nearby RF noise, but the EVX-5400 almost full quiets from 10 miles away when talking to home from the same 5W portable... The CCRs, in particular all the TYT brands, those will simply desense down to zero when connected to my base antenna so reception range goes to zero.
 
Now, perhaps If you live in a lower RF congested area then, perhaps, a CCR would be fine; but the again, owning a radio that only works in certain conditions is not a good radio to own IMO. If you need urban performance in crowded RF environments, then most of these Cheap Chinese Radios will disappoint.
 
With that said, cheapies CCRs have their uses. For example, the Baofeng BF-1801 (Clone of the TYT  MD-760) works great as a floor intercom radio... just don't expect that radio to make miracles in terms of range.
 
Considering a lot of the Kenwood/Icom/Motorola commercial grade radios are sold for quite a bargain on eBay, I really don't see any reason to own a subpar radio...
 
Buying cheap in radio gear is the surest way to buying twice.
 
G.
 
 
 

I like the battery power supply option, You would purchase a nice deep cycle battery and an appropriate low noise charger for said battery. then connect your gear to the battery via a fused circuit. Your power will generally be 13.8v and during grid power fail, you will still have 12.5 to 13v and several hours of stand by power. In my case, I have a 110AH lead acid battery under my bench and 12v power outlets at my work space. I also have several 12v powered tools and a ventilation fan. I also have a 9" LED TV that only uses 5.5 watts. Great post storm set up, keeps communications going for several hours. Our repeater has a 55 AH AGM battery and operates for up to a day of lite to moderate use. clean quite power supplies like Astron can cost several hundred, this set is comparable in price.

Well Ft. Lauderdale is flat as a pancake so 55ft HAAT is above the tree line and over most anything in a residential 'hood.  If I could get 50ft up I'd be over the same obstacles as I'm in Florida as well. That said my lil mast is at 25 ft and VHF has much better range than UHF. Just need an extra 25ft that the HOA won't see.
 

Lot of information you need there sir, and so far Boxcar, N4GIX, and Zack have covered several parts of your requests. Here is my take on it:

1) GMRS covers your family only. I remember the local CERT wanting to use my GMRS repeater in the event of a major storm. I explained that in order for them to legally do this, each user would need their own license. I also explained that unlike ham radio where an emergency net has priority, GMRS has no stipulations, anyone can use it. For what you wish to use it for, I believe there are "Private" licenses, which are not on the GMRS frequencies, that you can apply for. This allows you to designate any person or group to transmit on your licensed frequency, and you would be responsible for any compliance issues that may come up. Likewise, you can use other radio services such as MURS without a license, however you cannot use a repeater and are restricted to 2 watts.

2) I've never been a fan of the micro mobile series. To me, the functionality does not meet the price. I can order a Kenwood TK880 for about $50 and have 25 watts output, plus I can program and save specific repeater splits into the radio with names and such. For about $25 more you can purchase the "H" model which will give you 45 watts. 880 series is smaller than most car stereos and fits almost anywhere. As for overheating, I am a strong believer in using TOT's or Time Out Timers. This prevents you from transmitting for long periods without giving the radio a chance to "rest and cool down." As for antenna's, I really don't have an opinion on them. Try to get something good from a brand you trust. 1/4 wave antennas if I recall dont need a ground plane and would be best if you plan to carry it around with you.

3) After reviewing the rules, I do not see a ban on store and forward devices, which fall under automatic control and is allowed by the FCC by licensed users. Store and forward MUST be on one of the repeater output channels and must be used in conjunction of a license. Store and forward is also restricted to low power. I may have overlooked something though so make sure to study the rules yourself and make your best judgement call.

4) Your repeater is only as good as your antenna. You should try to get your antenna up high so that you gt the best coverage you can. As for station grounding and lightning protection, a qualified electrician should be called in. I've seen some operators use the ground post for the AC mains power for protection however this isn't recommended as it gives lightning another path into the house. For proper protection, the best way to go would be to talk to an electrician about installing a lightning protected ground rod, which is longer than your mains ground rod. (Lightning protected ground rods can be anywhere from 16-100 feet depending on the soil type.) You would then need to install lightning arresters to your feedline, one near the antenna, one near the entrance to whatever structure you will store the radio in (house or shed.)

5) back to #2, TK880 is small and light weight.

6) See #2 and #5, TK880 is inexpensive but a workhorse. The big things to check are, Is the radio type accepted for GMRS (Part 95) you'll need to put the radios FCC ID into the FCC lookup and see what the FCC has certified it for. If its part 95 then your doing good. The other is the band. for GMRS you need something that covers from 460-470. TK880 has 3 UHF radios, Type 1 I believe covers 400-430, type two covers 450-490 and type three covers 480-520. You would need a type 2 radio 450-490 for GMRS use. Outside of that, its just features that YOU may want. Things like scan or radio ID or channel grouping.

7) GMRS was not exactly developed for emergency operations, though it can be used for such. It was designed to keep family members in touch with one another and to allow like minded licensed individuals to meet up with one another. Don't expect SHTF operations should all comms go down. For that, stick with ham radio where there is training and procedure to emcomms

For GMRS, Ver. 1 and Ver. 2  radios are the same. Ver. 2 radios have a slightly different schematic and some different features that are used in LMR/commercial  operations.

TK-880 datasheet:
https://criticalradio.com/Kenwood%20Spec%20Sheets/Data%20Sheets/TK780h_880h_ver2_k.pdf
 
"H" means high power and bigger heat sink on the back, refer to the datasheet for the dimensions. There is some difference between v2.0 version and earlier (non-versioned, that is often called V1.0), but I can't weigh on that, since I do not own one. The "-1", "-2" and "-3" are not versions of the hardware, they are versions of alignment, refer to the datasheet.

Access is not bad. It is on the circuit board that is behind the front panel. With the top and bottom covers off, the front panel pops off via a couple of clips. Then a couple of screws hold the board in place. You don't have to disconnect the ribbon cable; just flip the board over.
 
It also gives you a perfect opportunity to pull the keypad out and clean it. Or better yet, replace it with a nice new, white one that is intended for the 863G. It fits, is not expensive and in my opinion, the white keys look better.
 
Software programming is simpler than FPP. FPP is just something that is nice to have, just in case.
I didn't expect that Used Radios would remove the resistor. But if you can get them to enable FPP in software when they program it, if you ever get around to removing the resistor yourself, FPP will then work without any further software programming. In that case you could add a couple of additional channels to your existing 15 channels, without ever needing to connect it to a computer.
 
If you get your ham license and want to program some ham frequencies in your radio, you will definitely need to be able to program it yourself. You will also need to tweak a couple of things in the radio to get it to work properly down in the ham band. It will still work fine on GMRS, too. I've done that on a few of them too, so just hit me up for the info when you need it.

The 7180, 7280, 8180, and 8280 use KPG-89D software.  The 780 and 880 use KPG-49D.  I'm not sure which software the 8160 uses.
 
The cable will be the same.

link for software  https://hamfiles.co.uk/index.php?page=downloads&type=entry&id=radio-programming%2Fkenwood-programming%2Fkpg-76d_v100 also can confirm that the programming cable is 8-pin however it only utilizes 4 ( 3v txd rxd and ground ) cant recommend a cable as I build my own using a usb to ttl converter CP2102 , have heard a lot of good reviews about bluemax49ers cables https://www.ebay.com/usr/bluemax49ers?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

The keypads are interchangeable. Also, they are readily available as replacement parts.
The 880 V1 will program just fine from the same Windows program that works on the V2. You will just get a notification that any V2 only functions will not load into the radio. I have both V1s and 2s and use the same cable, software and data file for both.
 
Download the service manual, too. It goes into a lot more detail on programming.
 
Yes, I would recommend getting 1-7 and 15-22 programmed. I would ask for 1-7 as low power, narrow bandwidth, simplex. I use 67 Hz PL TX and RX. This is to make it compatible with the widest range of handheld radios, including cheap, old FRS-only radios.
 
15-22 I would program as repeater pairs, high power, wide bandwidth, 141.3 Hz PL TX and RX. That gives you the best chance of being able to get into a repeater if you need to.
 
I would have the buttons programmed as follows: left up/dn = volume. Right up/dn = channel. MON = CSQ toggle. A = TA. B = Scan D/A C and D = group up/dn and SCN = scan.
 
I would in fact probably put 1-7 in one group, 15-22 in a different group.
 
So, here's how that works: Unless your group has the PL tones set the same as yours, keep it set to monitor (MON will appear in the display). That allows you to hear all traffic on the channel, regardless of tone or lack thereof.
Keep TA set to on (TA in display). That makes all channels simplex, whether they are set as repeater pairs or simplex.
 
I would have the scan set to "multi" so it will scan all programmed frequencies as opposed to just the group/bank you are on.
If there is something on a channel that is a nuisance, just press the B button while it is on that channel to lock it out from scan. That function will reset when you cycle the power.
 
TK-880 can be programmed from the front panel, but first you have to remove a zero ohm resistor and enable that function in software. By default, that function is not available.

Update.  Installed yagis on both ends.  We can understand every word on every channel now.  Next phase, raising both by 6 feet and make sure the aim from mine is good.  I was actually out on the roof in my underwear re-aiming it just now haha.  I did the map aim and drew a straight line but didn't have a vantage point for beyond my house, garage roof mount on existing dish antenna j mount with a piece of toprail that probably barely clears the apex of the main roof, and it may not, didn't get on main roof to look.  I think I'm close to aimed but I don't think I can get much improvement with a little more height.
 
Stay tuned 

I have the V1 the 701c and the 771. The 701c is supposed to be tuned for 150-165 and 450-470Mhz so it should help with the transmit by sending out more RF. I have not seen a noticeable difference on the receive side and that is what my V1 mainly does. Guess its time to set up a transmit test to see if there is a noticeable difference. A better tuned antenna should yield a longer transmitter life so that alone would make it worth the $15.

The straight answer is: No, a longer antenna will NOT help. An antenna HIGHER UP IN THE AIR will help tremendously.
 
Those guys walking around with a 19-24 inch long rubber antenna flopping around from the top of their walkie-talkies are on VHF ham bands, not GMRS.   ...or else they are idiots.
 
BTECH will gladly recommend that you buy anything that they sell, if it makes you happy.