mbrun

"You ask what Morse Code is good for? I'll tell you. Morse Code is used exclusively by Electronics Based Life Forms to communicate amongst themselves using advanced Organic Digital Signal Processors, running state of the art Artificial Intelligence Software, to perform the highly complex transmit encryption, receive decryption and error correction functions."

My interpretation of the ‘licensed by rule’ rule is that you are licensed to operate in a LBR service only when you abide by the rules. If the rules for a service require the use of certified equipment and one does use such equipment then they are not licensed to use the service frequencies, thus not licensed.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

Thanks again for the tips. I'll see what I can do about filtering but might just need to wait for a break in the weather to make some outside adjustments. I never did get a chance to get up on my roof with an HT to try out, but will do that as soon as I possibly can. As for putting the Comet inside my garage, when I first got it, I did try it in here and really wasn't working very well. The antenna is just over 10' in length and my ceiling height is 10'.  Checking the SWR, using a MFJ-847, they are almost identical transmitting on 467.700 - the photos are the SWR on that frequency and on 462.700 both are 1.01 and 1.02
 
Yep, radio is fun!!  I would be much more frustrated without forums like this and help and tips from you guys!

I don’t believe that the the Nagoya is outperforming the Comet but I certainly acknowledge and accept what you are experiencing. RF is a weird animal.

What experience did you have when you used an HT while up on your roof and communicated with the subject repeater? What experience did you have when using your Nagoya antenna up on the roof at or near the same location as the Comet or the former slim jim?

A quick little story that occurred in the last 7 days. There is a 675 repeater in Wyoming, a suburb north of Cincinnati. It is used for the city-wide GMRS net weekly. I am on the fringe of that repeater and seldom participate because of poor signal quality in and out from my location. It is around 22 miles NW of me. Recently I was scanning the band, including scanning of repeater input frequencies, and suddenly I was listening to one side of a conversation from a guy actively using a different city repeater. Knowing him and what repeater he was on I reached out to him to ask his current location. He was about 3-5 miles further away in the same general direction as that 675 repeater; he was using his 50w mobile radio in the vehicle. I only heard him on input frequency for about a minute. What that suggested to me was that there were fewer obstructions between his antenna and mine for that mile or so stretch of roadway he was traveling than there is between the 675 repeater and me. The point of this being, location can be everything, even when that location is seems counter intuitive.

Since you know what the Nagoya performance is in the garage, what is like when it is located where the Comet is? Same? Better? Worse? Then a logical thing to ask is, what is the Comets performance in the garage when located at the location where the Nagoya works well?

Assuming all else is equal (same radio, same coax, same physical location, same SWR) the Comet should result in a stronger signal into the your radio, and into the repeater from your radio, from most locations where you compare the two antennas against one another. So ask yourself, what is technically different, if anything, other than location?

Isn’t radio fun?


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

Press and hold the ‘Exit’ key until the lock icon appears. Press and hold again until the lock icon disappears.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

I was out for one of my daily walks. My wife tried to reach me off and one for about 15 minutes. Hearing no response she gave up and went looking for me. She found me safe and sound with radio in hand still walking but asked why I did not respond. I apologized but informed her that I did not hear the calls over the radio. Despite the base radio being set correctly when I got home, no dice, no Tx. Turned out I was at fault. I had disconnected the antenna from the radio the night before doing some testing and apparently I had forgotten to reattach. At 50w the radio survived the periodic calls.

Sure is a good thing I did not do that on the day I had her read the whole US constitution over the air while I checked coverage in our area for about an hour.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

I was out for one of my daily walks. My wife tried to reach me off and one for about 15 minutes. Hearing no response she gave up and went looking for me. She found me safe and sound with radio in hand still walking but asked why I did not respond. I apologized but informed her that I did not hear the calls over the radio. Despite the base radio being set correctly when I got home, no dice, no Tx. Turned out I was at fault. I had disconnected the antenna from the radio the night before doing some testing and apparently I had forgotten to reattach. At 50w the radio survived the periodic calls.

Sure is a good thing I did not do that on the day I had her read the whole US constitution over the air while I checked coverage in our area for about an hour.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

Yeah, the 8000 is in a class of its own... with a mighty impressive price tag too...

Having measured the sensitivity of the KG935G and KGUV9P I can and say that the base sensitivity of my subjects was about the same. But in side-by-side real-world practice, the weakest signals always seem to be reproduced with less noise and audio a bit more clear on the 9P. I bring up the 9P because I believe it to be identical to the 9G except for the part 95e firmware. I will take the menus, keypad and display of the 935 over the 9.

For what its worth.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

@wayoverthere plus 1 on the BNC and use of adapters to absorb the wear rather than the radio connector.

The HTs that I frequently switch between mobile and handheld use have BNC connectors on them. Antennas have them as well. Easy on, easy off. My adapter cable in the vehicle has 90-degree BNC on the radio end of cable, as does one cable I often use in the shack for hooking up the HT to the base antenna for various tests/experiments I may be doing.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

Having measured the sensitivity of the KG935G and KGUV9P I can and say that the base sensitivity of my subjects was about the same. But in side-by-side real-world practice, the weakest signals always seem to be reproduced with less noise and audio a bit more clear on the 9P. I bring up the 9P because I believe it to be identical to the 9G except for the part 95e firmware. I will take the menus, keypad and display of the 935 over the 9.

For what its worth.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

I have to agree, and I believe whole heartedly, that it is indeed a money thing. While the hardware platform on which the radios are based technically is built to serve the needs in many markets, in many countries, the cost of custom firmware, government regulations and certifications for the ultimate market can be costly. If the market is small, or the potential customer’s expenditure willingness is minimal, corners get cut, more compromises occur.

I don’t consider Wouxun radios cheap, I don’t consider them to be expensive, and I don’t necessarily consider some of them polished either. What I can presume however is that products that sell for less are less polished, have limited capability, and likely will not perform as well higher priced units. Similarly, I would expect if I paid more I would get more. Call me old fashioned.

The programming weakness of the BF, Midlands and other brands is well known and documented on this forum. Many don’t come here until they have made a purchase however. They purchase low or on sizzle and end up being disappointed and wonder why. I have to admit I have chuckled quite a few times when I read some messages.

In 2020 when I made the decision to purchase my first repeater capable GMRS HT, I made a personal decision to purchase a KG-805G. I was pleased then, and still am pleased with that purchase. But I also concluded quickly that I wanted more. WIth that I reconciled that I would likely need to pay more. I knew that if I bought down, I am not supporting future efforts to get more of what I want. While some on this forum have taughted the 935G as providing a really good user experience (and I agree that it does) I still desire a radio with an even better user experience. I know to achieve this that there is cost involved. But if there are not sufficient numbers of consumers willing to pay to get it, we live with what the masses will buy.

Bottom line. There is no technical limitation that prevents a manufacturer from making, or any consumer from owning, a radio that at can accommodate a large quantity of fully usable configurable memory channels in a FCC Part 95 compliant radio. They and we both just need to be willing to pay for it. Fortunately, at least manufacturer, Wouxun, has made it possible throughout there whole GMRS lineup to fully configure every memory channel available in the model. This ranges from a minimum of 128 on the KG-805G, to 256 on the 905 to 999 on the KG-935G, KG-1000G and KG-UV9G models. Since they have set themselves aside in this regard, I would expect they would do the same on any future models that may come to market as well.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

That’s more like it.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

I have to agree, and I believe whole heartedly, that it is indeed a money thing. While the hardware platform on which the radios are based technically is built to serve the needs in many markets, in many countries, the cost of custom firmware, government regulations and certifications for the ultimate market can be costly. If the market is small, or the potential customer’s expenditure willingness is minimal, corners get cut, more compromises occur.

I don’t consider Wouxun radios cheap, I don’t consider them to be expensive, and I don’t necessarily consider some of them polished either. What I can presume however is that products that sell for less are less polished, have limited capability, and likely will not perform as well higher priced units. Similarly, I would expect if I paid more I would get more. Call me old fashioned.

The programming weakness of the BF, Midlands and other brands is well known and documented on this forum. Many don’t come here until they have made a purchase however. They purchase low or on sizzle and end up being disappointed and wonder why. I have to admit I have chuckled quite a few times when I read some messages.

In 2020 when I made the decision to purchase my first repeater capable GMRS HT, I made a personal decision to purchase a KG-805G. I was pleased then, and still am pleased with that purchase. But I also concluded quickly that I wanted more. WIth that I reconciled that I would likely need to pay more. I knew that if I bought down, I am not supporting future efforts to get more of what I want. While some on this forum have taughted the 935G as providing a really good user experience (and I agree that it does) I still desire a radio with an even better user experience. I know to achieve this that there is cost involved. But if there are not sufficient numbers of consumers willing to pay to get it, we live with what the masses will buy.

Bottom line. There is no technical limitation that prevents a manufacturer from making, or any consumer from owning, a radio that at can accommodate a large quantity of fully usable configurable memory channels in a FCC Part 95 compliant radio. They and we both just need to be willing to pay for it. Fortunately, at least manufacturer, Wouxun, has made it possible throughout there whole GMRS lineup to fully configure every memory channel available in the model. This ranges from a minimum of 128 on the KG-805G, to 256 on the 905 to 999 on the KG-935G, KG-1000G and KG-UV9G models. Since they have set themselves aside in this regard, I would expect they would do the same on any future models that may come to market as well.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

I have to agree, and I believe whole heartedly, that it is indeed a money thing. While the hardware platform on which the radios are based technically is built to serve the needs in many markets, in many countries, the cost of custom firmware, government regulations and certifications for the ultimate market can be costly. If the market is small, or the potential customer’s expenditure willingness is minimal, corners get cut, more compromises occur.

I don’t consider Wouxun radios cheap, I don’t consider them to be expensive, and I don’t necessarily consider some of them polished either. What I can presume however is that products that sell for less are less polished, have limited capability, and likely will not perform as well higher priced units. Similarly, I would expect if I paid more I would get more. Call me old fashioned.

The programming weakness of the BF, Midlands and other brands is well known and documented on this forum. Many don’t come here until they have made a purchase however. They purchase low or on sizzle and end up being disappointed and wonder why. I have to admit I have chuckled quite a few times when I read some messages.

In 2020 when I made the decision to purchase my first repeater capable GMRS HT, I made a personal decision to purchase a KG-805G. I was pleased then, and still am pleased with that purchase. But I also concluded quickly that I wanted more. WIth that I reconciled that I would likely need to pay more. I knew that if I bought down, I am not supporting future efforts to get more of what I want. While some on this forum have taughted the 935G as providing a really good user experience (and I agree that it does) I still desire a radio with an even better user experience. I know to achieve this that there is cost involved. But if there are not sufficient numbers of consumers willing to pay to get it, we live with what the masses will buy.

Bottom line. There is no technical limitation that prevents a manufacturer from making, or any consumer from owning, a radio that at can accommodate a large quantity of fully usable configurable memory channels in a FCC Part 95 compliant radio. They and we both just need to be willing to pay for it. Fortunately, at least manufacturer, Wouxun, has made it possible throughout there whole GMRS lineup to fully configure every memory channel available in the model. This ranges from a minimum of 128 on the KG-805G, to 256 on the 905 to 999 on the KG-935G, KG-1000G and KG-UV9G models. Since they have set themselves aside in this regard, I would expect they would do the same on any future models that may come to market as well.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

I have to agree, and I believe whole heartedly, that it is indeed a money thing. While the hardware platform on which the radios are based technically is built to serve the needs in many markets, in many countries, the cost of custom firmware, government regulations and certifications for the ultimate market can be costly. If the market is small, or the potential customer’s expenditure willingness is minimal, corners get cut, more compromises occur.

I don’t consider Wouxun radios cheap, I don’t consider them to be expensive, and I don’t necessarily consider some of them polished either. What I can presume however is that products that sell for less are less polished, have limited capability, and likely will not perform as well higher priced units. Similarly, I would expect if I paid more I would get more. Call me old fashioned.

The programming weakness of the BF, Midlands and other brands is well known and documented on this forum. Many don’t come here until they have made a purchase however. They purchase low or on sizzle and end up being disappointed and wonder why. I have to admit I have chuckled quite a few times when I read some messages.

In 2020 when I made the decision to purchase my first repeater capable GMRS HT, I made a personal decision to purchase a KG-805G. I was pleased then, and still am pleased with that purchase. But I also concluded quickly that I wanted more. WIth that I reconciled that I would likely need to pay more. I knew that if I bought down, I am not supporting future efforts to get more of what I want. While some on this forum have taughted the 935G as providing a really good user experience (and I agree that it does) I still desire a radio with an even better user experience. I know to achieve this that there is cost involved. But if there are not sufficient numbers of consumers willing to pay to get it, we live with what the masses will buy.

Bottom line. There is no technical limitation that prevents a manufacturer from making, or any consumer from owning, a radio that at can accommodate a large quantity of fully usable configurable memory channels in a FCC Part 95 compliant radio. They and we both just need to be willing to pay for it. Fortunately, at least manufacturer, Wouxun, has made it possible throughout there whole GMRS lineup to fully configure every memory channel available in the model. This ranges from a minimum of 128 on the KG-805G, to 256 on the 905 to 999 on the KG-935G, KG-1000G and KG-UV9G models. Since they have set themselves aside in this regard, I would expect they would do the same on any future models that may come to market as well.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

@Mikeam
I'm a new guy to all of this GMRS stuff, but here's why the KG-1000g or any other non-handheld GMRS can't transmit on channels 8 - 14:
"The popular answer provided in these venues commonly focuses on the wattage limitation imposed by the FCC on these channels. The typical line of reasoning is that these channels have a one half watt transmit limit, and high powered mobile radios simply can't reduce their power to such a low level, so therefore they can't transmit on those channels legally. While the wattage theory does make some sense, and the inability to go below one watt may indeed be the case with some mobile radios, this answer is not actually correct.
The real reason can be easily found within the FCC rules for GMRS. Specifically, the rule in Part 95, Subpart E which limits the frequencies commonly assigned to channels 8-14 to hand-held radios only. Here is the applicable section (from § 95.1763 GMRS channels):
(d) 467 MHz interstitial channels. Only hand-held portable units may transmit on these 7 channels. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5675, 467.5875, 467.6125, 467.6375, 467.6625, 467.6875, and 467.7125 MHz.
Those channel center frequencies are the seven frequencies assigned to GMRS channels 8-14.
In other words, only handheld GMRS radios can transmit on channels 8-14 because, well, you can only transmit on channels 8-14 with a handheld GMRS radio.
Yep, because the FCC said so. That's all it is. And there you go."

Quite simple…obstacles. Trees, homes, water towers, rolling hills.

The repeater antenna is somewhere around 900’ higher in elevation than mine. If you connected my antenna to the repeater antenna with a string, it would pass through very few trees and likely very few or no buildings. In contrast, when talking simplex (mobile or HT to base), the signal needs to pass through many thousands of trees, homes commercial buildings other obstacles.

You will hear over and over that GMRS is line so sight communications. This means if you have clear line of sight (i.e. your antennas can literally see one another) you can talk great distances. However, every obstacle you put between your transmit and receive antenna attenuates your signal and thus lessens your effective distance. The worst of these is the earth.

Midland gets away with misleading advertising of ‘37 miles’ because they actually can go 37 miles…if both radios are in outer space where there are no obstacles. Hear on earth…typically 1/2-2 miles.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

One of the first two things I do when looking at a radio model I don't presently own, typically the commercial versions, is find the manufacture's brochure for it and then look to see if the programming software with cable is available. 
The brochure answers most of the questions one might have about number of memory channels, power and other features of interest. It's better than trying to ask people on forums like this while trying to figure out if radio fits with your operating requirements.
Also if I can't get the programming software I have ZERO interest in the radio regardless of how good it looks. If I can't program it then it's just a paper weight.

While this is not a spreadsheet, these are the basic things you need:
1. Receiver - This is the radio that receives the incoming signal on the 467.xxx (repeater input) frequency
2. Transmitter - This is the radio that takes the received signal and re-transmits it on the 462.xxx (repeater output) frequency
3. Repeater Controller - This is the device that connects the receiver to the transmitter, and may add repeater ID functionality, and other features. Some radios like the Wouxon KG-1000G have repeater functions built in, so only a patch cable is required to connect the receiver to the transmitter.
4. Receiving antenna - can be combined with the transmitting antenna when using a duplexer
5. Transmitting antenna - can be combined with the receiving antenna when using a duplexer
6. Appropriate feedline for each antenna
7. Source of power for receiver and transmitter
8. Duplexer (optional) - allows receiver and transmitter to both use the same antenna and feedline, eliminating the need for a second antenna and feedline.
 
While the items above are what is needed, there are a lot of nuances that come into play. While theoretically you might be able to build a repeater using any combination of each of the above items, many things just may not work well in this circumstance. Certain combinations work well, while other combinations just don't do so.
If you obtain a purpose-built repeater, such as a Vertex VXR-7000 or Retevis RT-97, it will combine at least items 1, 2, and 3 into a single device.
You can use a duplexer to allow the use of only one antenna and feedline for both receive and transmit. Of course, if you do, you'll also need the appropriate patch cables to connect the duplexer to the receiver and transmitter. The Retevis RT-97 includes a built-in duplexer, and on other repeater models a duplexer may be included, but often is not.
About the simplest way to get a repeater up and running is to use a purpose built device like the Retevis RT-97, along with a decent antenna and feedline, as well as an appropriate power source. Because it is a relatively low power unit, many people use it with a solar panel and 12V battery, rather than connecting it to the "grid." This is often done in a portable configuration using a "roll-up" J-pole antenna hoisted into a tree.
Overall, a repeater is, in many ways, like a car. A car has an engine, transmission, wheels, and so on, while a repeater has the parts mentioned above. It is a system of component parts, which when properly matched, performs well the function for which it was intended. If they are not properly matched, the system will not work well.
For more information, you might want to check out repeater-builder.com.
 

I appreciate the knowledge and sharing of your experiences with the set up. I'm down the Rabbit trail now. I have searched endlessly for a mast or tower that is tall enough that I can do away with guys and tilt/pivot. Tough to find one that supports higher than 40' on a tilt base without guying. Might be my only option to guying. Shipping is getting costly, so I may have to drive and pick one up also. The joys!!! Thanks for sharing WRHS965

That’s more like it.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

Quite simple…obstacles. Trees, homes, water towers, rolling hills.

The repeater antenna is somewhere around 900’ higher in elevation than mine. If you connected my antenna to the repeater antenna with a string, it would pass through very few trees and likely very few or no buildings. In contrast, when talking simplex (mobile or HT to base), the signal needs to pass through many thousands of trees, homes commercial buildings other obstacles.

You will hear over and over that GMRS is line so sight communications. This means if you have clear line of sight (i.e. your antennas can literally see one another) you can talk great distances. However, every obstacle you put between your transmit and receive antenna attenuates your signal and thus lessens your effective distance. The worst of these is the earth.

Midland gets away with misleading advertising of ‘37 miles’ because they actually can go 37 miles…if both radios are in outer space where there are no obstacles. Hear on earth…typically 1/2-2 miles.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

Your experience sounds soooooo familiar.

Your experience is pretty consistent with mine under similar conditions and setup. I too have loads of trees.

Spoiler alert. I expect zero difference in your tests if you swap the radios and keep everything else the same, nor do I expect there to be any more than a small insignificant increase in range if you put high-power mobiles in both location. Since you are experimenting, please do so. We always learn best by doing.

Now that you are one your journey to a true understanding of the real meaning behind ‘line of site’ communications, consider this. In my experience, because of all the trees and other obstacles in your path, small increases in antenna height will be met with minor, if not completely undetectable, differences. Double your height and I expect you’ll clearly detect a change, albeit modest. Get one of your antennas above the trees and suddenly things really open up. Get both above the trees and WOW!.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM