WRMH343

So, how does the Garmin Rino work?  They claim to be able to send position data to everyone on the same channel as them.  Sounds a whole lot like APRS... Unless they invented their own propriety standard??

No. One input frequency and one output frequency (aka “Repeater Pair”) at at time. And despite the ability to change frequencies on the radio, expect performance to suffer if you set the radio’s frequency to something other than what the internal duplexer has been optimized for.

Hope that helps.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

I drove 180 miles to get free fast charging from the Calif Department of Transportation in Kettleman City for my EV (and some BBQ at Bravo Farms)! Hahaha ?

The revamp of the MyGMRS forums looks amazing on desktop and functions very well on mobile. However, these "Open this topic on..." nag screens that pop up every time on mobile browsers are very annoying:
     
There doesn't appear to be a way to permanently disable this as every time I navigate to the forums page I see it. "Chrome" is always shown as the option for all Chromium-based browsers, and this yields a confusing UX. Who even uses Tapatalk anymore in this day and age of mobile-first web development? So many forums I subscribe to have dropped support for this app long ago, RadioReference included. Anyway, my 2¢...

Actually FRS/MURS would be a better fit. Just have to use a fixed mount antenna. Most of the channels on FRS are already 2 watts. All the MURS channels are also 2 watts. Both services are license free provided one uses FCC certified radios. This would give the average everyday user up to 27 channels split between FRS and MURS.
This allows the user to pick which band works better under the current conditions without carrying two radios or having to pick one over the other, and maybe getting poor results because it was the wrong choice. There is a reason why dual band VHF/UHF radios are so popular in the Ham world for example.

The nice thing about the 980/1000 chassis is the wide receive capability.  It can listen to airband, 6m/2m/70cm ham, GMRS, NOAA, Marine, non-digital LMR, etc.  That said, it is a little sad, knowing that the chassis can do a full 50w, but it's limited due to the MURS regulation. 

I have run across several articles that support the idea that alternative, non-OEM HT antennas do not necessarily perform better than a radio's stock OEM one.  Here is one such article...
https://www.hamradio.me/antennas/ht-antenna-comparisons.html
The author also showed that the use of a tiger tail aka counterpoise does not provide a universal benefit - it does in some cases but not others.
The author's takeaways:
1) For his Yaesu FT1D, the stock antenna performed well. (Perhaps the Yaesu/ICOM/Kenwood) engineers design an antenna tuned well for each particular model.)
2) If he needs a more capable antenna for demanding situations, he recommends a roll up antenna (e.g., Ed Fong DBJ-2).  Note that there are amateur radio and commercial versions of that antenna.  The commercial one is suitable for GMRS and MURS.  The rollup antenna would be good for home use or for stationary work camping or hiking.
Finally, and this is a personal decision for each of us - how many non-conspicuous extras do we want to add to our "portable" HTs?  A giant whippy antenna?  A counterpoise hanging off the radio?  Maybe a suit of armor with an NMO mount at the top of the helmet?  What a ground plane that would make.  ? 
4 out of 5 dentists say that walking around with an HT automatically disqualifies one from getting an invite to a Victoria's Secret show.  Walking around with an HT loaded with octopus-like accessories may go a step further - it might result in a regular block party invite getting "lost in the mail."  ??

In a SHTF situation, the best I currently hope for is local comms with locals, either simplex or through repeaters that may remain online. A couple of local repeaters on located on hospitals and are known to be powered by emergency power. Although I am on the fringe, in an emergency situation I can listen to and get into both with marginal audio.

I have no family members within radio range, only radio-enthusiast friends and acquaintances. I figure bench depth in this area will be a huge help in keeping information flowing. Once I have my HF antenna up, effective comm range will improve.

My original focus for radio has been simplex communication with my wife. Both HT to HT and HT to base for when one or both of use if one or both need to wonder out for a while.

I have SLA in my shack but with limited capacity. I also have additional large SLA on float to power the sump pumps in grid down. I know I have limited capacity and no recharge capability in a GD situation and also no generator. Note to self…Improve this.

We always keep loads of spare batteries, battery packs, flashlights, lanterns, food and propane on hand for cooking and heat supplement. Propane would be my source of energy if I added a backup generator.

We have plenty of NOAA radios, including those with solar capabilities. We have some external LiPo batteries to help with cell phones in the event cell service remains up with available capacity.

I have been hoping to move my shack into the basement, but if I do that I know I need have even more need for extended runtime capability on the sump to keep basement dry and usable to protect the shack and food stores in an extended GD scenario.

Overall, on scale of 1-10, I feel I am only prepared about to a level 2. Good for a few days in some areas and a few months in others. But honestly, not very well balanced. Note to self…Improve this.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

I agree with OldRadioGuy, start by reaching out to the club and go to the lunch meetings.  My 12 yo grand daughter "GD" and I started with GMRS, the some fellow GMRS people we meet who where Hams as well suggested that we get our Ham Ticket.  So I asked around for a Ham coach from the club which they call Elmers.  Most suggestions was to study online which we did for a month and we took test and back in May we past.  It was great time with my 12 yo GD study buddy, we even bonded more.  So I put vanity plates with GD call sign and she on the air every Sunday night Net.  So if you want go find one of your kids/Grand kids to be a study buddy.
Enjoy the journey,
MacJack

The nice thing about both GMRS and HAM is you can put as much effort into it as you want and enjoy radio. I got a HAM license years and years ago and upgraded to General. I recently got into GMRS because my family can get involved and don't have to take the test. There is not much traffic on GMRS where I live. I still listen to 2m and 70cm via local repeaters. I also still listen to SW. Enjoy whatever part of the radio world you choose to use. These days there are a lot of good resources on the web.
Sean

The higher up in frequency you go, the more line-of-site it becomes. This means that, in part, obstacles have an increasingly adverse affect on range. In GMRS, height is might. The fewer the obstacles between two antennas the greater the effective range of the signal travel. 50, 60, 70 miles on earth is truly possible, but these ranges are also truly exceptional, not the norm.

When a city has a repeater that seems to work well and covers the whole city it is because the repeater antenna is usually way above average terrain and well above most buildings. If you could put an antenna up to that same degree at your home you too would experience that same wonderful coverage.

Case in point. I can open a repeater 50 miles north of my home using just a 5w HT while standing outside. Why? Because the repeater antenna is 500’ or so higher than me. Now, if I hook up that same HT to my base antenna at 40’, 5 watts is more than enough to carry on a clear conversation through that repeater. However, the base antenna, again at 40’ feet, is still only sufficient for reliable simplex communications from my base to a 5 watt HT out to about 1.5-2 miles. My base antenna needs to be raised higher to get more base-to-HT range. When I do raise the antenna to 55’ or so and I gain an additional couple of miles. Raising the antenna nearly always decreases the number of obstacles that attenuate the signal, so that is why it is so important for good communications.

Hope this helps some.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

I think a good part of the issue, at least for me, is that there are no APRS facilities near me. As such, I can only see if I got it working when I go on a long drive.

I do not believe you should have had to do anything at all to communicate with an FRS radio. I believe the BTECH channel 17 was already factory configured to use the same frequency. Only change to that channel that may be necessary is enabling CTCSS or DCS if it was applicable.

If I interpret correctly the various posts from other users on this forum I have read, you can program loads of your own channels for receive only on the BTECH, but you can only transmit on the ones that are factory programmed for you. A weakness of BTECH and Midland Radios. I will need to let owners of said radios comment further.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

That sounds like an Ed Fong antenna. Quality product, just make sure to follow his instructions (including using the correct type of PVC, and not messing with the wound coil). 
My first thought is the cable.  50' of RG8X might have a fair bit of loss.  For long runs, LMR-400 is a much better choice.  To test, bring the antenna close to the radio, use a short cord (less than 6 feet), and see what the range is like.  If you get equal (or better) range with the short cable, then the problem is either the cable, or interference along the cable's route. 

The only issue I had with this is that they declined to enforce a Busy Channel Lockout for automatic data/location bursts. You could set up your radio to transmit every 30 seconds, for example, and it'll beacon regardless of whether the channel is busy with voice traffic. Add in multiple radios in the same range, and I fear the GMRS channels will start to sound like APRS with data bursts all over the place.
I had proposed the busy channel lockout feature but they specifically rejected it, claiming it was up to the licensee to ensure their radio is not causing interference. But once you enable an automatic location report, the licensee is relinquishing control to the radio for some period of time. It only seems like common sense for the radio to hold off the transmission until the channel is clear again. I'd also think the manufacturers would voluntarily add this feature as it would increase the reliability of their messages in the presence of co-channel interference.
As far as FM on CB, I think it's great. It throws a lifeline to the CB radio manufacturers who can now introduce new FM-capable radios and revitalize the service a little bit. Seems GMRS has been taking over for quite a while, which is why some companies like Midland have all but given up on CB and moved onto making mobile GMRS products. For me, the interesting thing is that the reasons the FCC rejected digital voice on GMRS are the same reasons they initially denied Cobra's request to allow FM on CB. It fundamentally changes the nature of the service, it creates a compatibility issue between existing users and FM users, etc. They chose to mandate that AM is required on any FM-capable radios to ensure backwards compatibility. Using the same workaround, we could petition for digital voice on GMRS as long as digital radios are backwards compatible with analog on these channels so you can always talk to the analog people and hear the traffic on the channel. So for that, I'm very excited for the next round of interest in digital voice on GMRS. Seems a no-brainer now, we just need to file a well-organized petition for it with support from users and manufacturers.

I am just learning that the FCC has given serious consideration to allowing location positioning information to be included in GMRS communications on all channels, and allowing FM modulation on existing CB channels.
 
Here is a fresh-off-the-press YouTube video that provides an overview:
 
741 Channel -
 
And here is the FCC rules amendment that that covers the proposed changes:
 
https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-374114A1.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3GQrL1LL_zjxMRzjiNi4Kxf8VqgojRP4bKAKCsrOxSskyFMxfceV-umjE
 
Looks like Motorola is is behind the petition for location positioning capability and Cobra is behind the petition for FM on CB frequencies.
 
The FCC document should be a good read. I have not read the whole thing yet. I hope to find something in there too that officially legalizes part 90 radios for GMRS.
 
 
Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

You are absolutely correct.

A technique that I and others have used is to leave the factory programming intact, including the factory repeater channel combinations. Then add a range of pre-configured repeater pairs or your own for all standard repeater pairs. (For example, my radios have the standard 30 channels assignments from the factory, plus 8 channels preconfigured for each of the 8 possible repeater pairs. They are labelled 550A through 550H all the way up to 725A through 725H).

Using this pattern I can, on the fly, dedicate any of those preconfigured pairs to a valid repeater by assigning the tones and naming the channel in the field.

So far that has worked very well for me.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

There are actually 22 GMRS frequencies. How did you even pass the FCC GMRS exam?

He does indeed sound like him.  Even sounds like he is in to off-road vehicles as well. Weird ?

OffRoaderX, You sound like one of my favorite youtube hobos. I am his favorite youtube watcher, he told me so. He also has a calibrated couch.
Good advice, by the way. Unless nerding out on building antennas is your "thing" let someone else do the work and enjoy offroading.

I thought I would do a report out of some testing I conducted this weekend.

One of my original curiosities has been how much signal actually finds itself being picked up by the offset antenna when the other is used to transmit in the same band. To settle this I separately transmitted using my GMRS and amateur radios (70cm) and measured the signal level present on the non-transmitting antenna. While transmitting at 50w, the offset antenna showed about -15dBm (about 25 uW or .04V ) of signal present. This was nearly the same regardless of direction.

This tells me a couple of things:
1) The power levels being picked up by the opposing antenna is well with the safe range of the receiver connected to the opposing antenna.
2) Expect serious desense of the opposing receiver during those periods when transmitting on the other radio within the same band as the receiving radio.

In addition, I did do some operational tests to see if there was any material desense of the opposing radio when operating in different bands. So far, no desense of concern. This was checked while listening to weak VHF signals on the amateur radio while transmitting on GMRS, and transmitting VHF while listening to weak signals on the GMRS radio. This was purely a subjective test under conditions in which I know the desired incoming signal to both radios was -110dBm or less. So, not bad.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

In a number of posts on this forum I have mentioned my intent to side mount my amateur radio antenna on the same mast that I use for the GMRS antenna. I can now say that it is done and has been working for almost a week. As promised elsewhere, here are some pics.
 

 

 

 
The side mount bracket is home crafted and painted a color similar to the main fiberglass mast. The amateur antenna is currently about 6-1/2ft below the bottom of the GMRS antenna. There is about 21” between the amateur antenna and the nearest metal (the GMRS feed line).
 
I am using LMR400 feed-line for both antennas and have ferrite chokes installed over the coax. I have not yet detected any material interference or objectionable desense in the GMRS radio while transmitting on the amateur radio. I do however observe one bar on the GMRS radio’s meter flutter while transmitting at 50w UHF on the amateur radio, if the GMRS radio is receiving a usable low-level signal at the point I key up the amateur radio, just not enough to be of concern presently.
 
I will be operating both antennas at the lower height you see in the picture until I am ready to guy the mast at full height, which is about 16’ higher.
 
One of the inquires I received elsewhere is listed below along with my original response. Posted here to prevent derailing another thread.
 

 
I will be running 50w UHF and VHF, 50w GMRS.
 
I will let you know once it is operational. I may not have it installed for two weeks.
 
I do expect some desensitization of the listening receiver while I am transmitting on the other service, but nothing that I expect will affect my operations. I will have ferrite chokes on the GMRS feed-line to cut down on the noise and reduce ingress from the 2m/70cm since that line will be running parallel to the amateur antenna.
 
 
Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

There is indeed two factors at play. 
Foremost you are 100% on point about maximizing your station's potential and getting a good antenna on a good ground is paramount.  No HT is going to be ideal and even if it's radiating well just the fact that it's being held by a bag of meat absorbing RF at a bad angle is going to cut your range.  That 5 watts is doing more work warming you up than radiating useful signal. 
The original point was line of sight.

Two HTs at 4 feet can expect a range of about 5.6 miles (2.8 miles each) absent any obstructions.  Moving one station to 6 feet high increases this to 6.3 miles (3.5 miles plus the HT's 2.8), so less than 1/2 mile improvement.  Putting your trailer antenna on a crank up 30 foot tower increases this to 10.6 miles (the 30' tower will now have a range of 7.8 miles). 
The original point is valid, though.  Going from an HT at 4 feet to a truck roof at 6 feet isn't going to make much difference in increased coverage and especially when you're blocked by terrain and buildings. 
If there's houses with roofs 15' or 20' high the handhelds and mobile still won't go more than city blocks while the antenna on the 30' tower will be more likely to work out to at least a couple of miles since it's eliminating half the obstructions.  Getting an antenna into the clear makes a big difference.  This is still true with an HT.  Having one HT user simply walk up a hill or stand on the roof will do more than pushing more power into a perfect antenna on your truck roof if you're between buildings.

Certainly can see where GMRS has a place in your individual disaster plan potentially.  At a family or neighborhood level it could very well make more sense to use it since it requires no test and is much less of a hurdle to get everyone on board. 
The reason I bought up ham was it sounds like the original poster is talking about providing emcomm for an organization which requires some imposed formality if not actual conformity with Red Cross and FEMA training, procedures and infrastructure, which local amateur radio groups may have already in place.  So while he may have to get his ticket but that opens up a huge world of options.

The legal basis I’m not so sure if it would pass under the FCC rules. This is my reason for asking if anybody knows of such a system in operation with the FCC’s blessing.
The radios are transmitting digital data using sub audible signals to the trunking system’s repeater. Also what I read the repeaters are sending digital data out every 10 seconds on an open channel. See the links in my opening post.
The FCC has some requirements, limits, on the duration, frequency and type of digital data that can be transmitted. Somehow a burp of digital data every 10 seconds will effectively preclude having another conventional repeater on the same channel. I don’t think this would be compliant with the rules.