coryb27

If the vehicles (factory) ground strap from the battery to the engine block fails, the radio acts as the negative side for the whole vehicle. The radio might not like seeing all the current of the starter motor. I have seen equipment fail this way, the end result is the junk pile or needs repair table at the next ham fest....
 
Yea I'm am back from my forum break

Sorry... I misspoke.  I do realize that you have stated what your objectives are.  I guess I didn't understand why you are trying to get a multi-service beam or vertical.  After re-reading, if you are trying to get the most value per dollar, that makes sense.  Unfortunately, however, it doesn't work to our benefit very often.  Most multi-function devices accommodate convenience at the detriment of performance.
 
The map you shared is showing about 70 miles from point to point.  That is the very edge for 50 watts on a vertical.  Hopefully setting the antennas higher will do the trick.
 
Good luck with the Amateur radio test.  It opens up a whole new real of possibilities. 

A legend in his own mind, a super hero to all GMRS users and radio extraordinaire   guys nuts, I trolled him for about a year, I know more about this guy than he does himself.
 
Mr. Becker
 
Just so you know who I am, I'm a 66 year old individual who spent most of my working life (over 30 years) within the two-way radio communications field as a dealer, service center, tower owner, designer and mobile data public safety systems provider. Plus I have also applied for and was granted more licenses by FCC than you will probably ever be in your life time
 
William R Howell,
GMRS License Call Sign: WQYX489
CEO, USGMRS Repeater & Users Group Association

A legend in his own mind, a super hero to all GMRS users and radio extraordinaire   guys nuts, I trolled him for about a year, I know more about this guy than he does himself.
 
Mr. Becker
 
Just so you know who I am, I'm a 66 year old individual who spent most of my working life (over 30 years) within the two-way radio communications field as a dealer, service center, tower owner, designer and mobile data public safety systems provider. Plus I have also applied for and was granted more licenses by FCC than you will probably ever be in your life time
 
William R Howell,
GMRS License Call Sign: WQYX489
CEO, USGMRS Repeater & Users Group Association

A legend in his own mind, a super hero to all GMRS users and radio extraordinaire   guys nuts, I trolled him for about a year, I know more about this guy than he does himself.
 
Mr. Becker
 
Just so you know who I am, I'm a 66 year old individual who spent most of my working life (over 30 years) within the two-way radio communications field as a dealer, service center, tower owner, designer and mobile data public safety systems provider. Plus I have also applied for and was granted more licenses by FCC than you will probably ever be in your life time
 
William R Howell,
GMRS License Call Sign: WQYX489
CEO, USGMRS Repeater & Users Group Association

A legend in his own mind, a super hero to all GMRS users and radio extraordinaire   guys nuts, I trolled him for about a year, I know more about this guy than he does himself.
 
Mr. Becker
 
Just so you know who I am, I'm a 66 year old individual who spent most of my working life (over 30 years) within the two-way radio communications field as a dealer, service center, tower owner, designer and mobile data public safety systems provider. Plus I have also applied for and was granted more licenses by FCC than you will probably ever be in your life time
 
William R Howell,
GMRS License Call Sign: WQYX489
CEO, USGMRS Repeater & Users Group Association

Ah, yes. Corey will have lots to add here as his dealings have gone much further.
 
Long story short, the guy is a nutcase and I had to ban him from myGMRS after constant nonsense. It started with him trying to list dozens of fake repeaters claiming he has hundreds of repeaters he was going to personally finance and put up all over the country for everyone to use for a fee. Needless to say, he lives in a trailer in the middle of nowhere and everything he said was a lie.
 
Don't send any money whatever you do! If you're going to waste perfectly good cash, at least go spend it in our store so you get something in return, and not empty promises. 

I’ve had a run in or two with him myself.
 
He runs a Facebook page which is a fun read but don’t believe any of what he says.
 
He’s on RadioRefetence as amphibian. He behaves for a while and then his behavior goes off the rails. They ban him for a while and then let him back. He occasionally has a decent tech tip to offer, but it’s value get lost in his BS.

Test equipment can be costly depending how much your using it.

We are using Asterisk as the server (running on a raspberry pi 3) and the RTCM made by micro-node. Cheaper hardware solutions vs the RTCM are available but require other configuration. I have not used any of the other hardware so I wont touch on that. I chose the RTCM for its single unit design and application specific properties. The interfacing with the RTCM is rather simple, I went with the MTR2000 repeater for reliability, full duty cycle and used market availability. 
 
Our group hosts its own local node server (Asterisk running on a raspberry pi 3) with 6 repeaters connected to it. This local node also allows us access to the MyGMRS national linking network hosted by the owner of this site. By entering commands in Asterisk or using DTMF,  links to other systems can be connected or disconnected on the fly. Things like usage counters and the visual map show links with red lines as well as what site is transmitting by changing its marker from green to red, all of this in real time.
 
Its not as hard as it sounds, Rich from MyGMRS was a huge help, you can also find a linking thread in the private section here. Along the way I found a company that was able to build a custom cable for interfacing the MTR2000 with the RTCM, it provides a reliable solution that's repeatable and works flawless. The MTR2000 repeater can be configured to work with the RTCM rather simply using the repeaters wire-line card to handle the audio and the 96 pin J5 connector to pull ctcss, core, ptt and power.
 
We are using the RTCM and MTR at 6 sites with a stand alone MTR at a 7th and could not be happier. These machines are worth every penny, its not 2 mobiles in a box its a true full duty cycle, commercial grade repeater. Due to the simplicity I have several more RTCM / MRT2000 combos ready to go I just need to fined a few more tower sites with internet.
 
Hope this answers a few questions.

Funny no matter what Forum linking comes up in it always starts a POTS debate, one that's been beat to death. Nothing I do is over POTS, in fact the Asterisk server is sitting on optical fiber and the nodes on dedicated point to point connections or cable. As an IT professional of 25 years I can assure you DSL is not POTS. Unless you are doing an auto patch to a POTS line or using dial up for your internet chances are your internet has been been off the last mile for years.

This is no different from any of the cheap Chinese radios that have come across my bench. I think its time the FCC starts doing its own testing, this goes to show the Chinese manufactures dont care and will fudge the paperwork to make this junk sellable in the US. As I have stated before none of these CCR's belong in use on GMRS as even the certified ones don't meet spec or standard. The spurs in the 900 band where strong enough to pick them up several 100 feet away on a scanner.

I operate a linked GMRS repeater network that's part of MyGMRS. It uses 5 MTR2000 part 90 machines linked with Voip and covers 1/4 of the state of Wisconsin. Just like NavyBOFH said you will at some point need to make a compromise on your requirements for a total part 95 certified solution. From the title of your post "a beginners repeater" you sure had a strange list of demands, I am still hung up on the Solid-state ladder filters as I have never seen these in use in GMRS or LMR of witch I own repeaters in both services and user either duplexers or vertical separation with separate antennas.
 

I have tested Motorola, Kenwood, Icom, Midland, Macom, etc.. All of these radios are for the most part spectrally clean, the audio does not over deviate and the error rate on the transmitters is always within spec. This just goes to show you get what you pay for in electronics.

Why does every new license holder want to setup a repeater? I would like to shed a little light on some of the important things to consider if you recently got your GMRS license and now want your own repeater.
 
First thing to consider, are there any open well placed repeaters in your area that you are able to use? I can assure you most repeater owners want people to use there repeater. Owning several repeaters I can assure you all are welcome and encouraged to use my machines.
 
Do you have access to a location to host your repeater? If your answer is your garage roof you should reconsider. Your garage roof will give you about the same coverage as simplex. Unless you’re on top of a mountain and all your users are at the bottom you will never be happy with this setup.
 
GMRS is not as popular as one would like to think, unless your repeater covers 20 miles or more you may find you only have 1 or 2 users in the area. Unless you already have a group of friends together you may want to consider this before spending money on a decent well positioned site to install your repeater.
 
So you found a nice high site and the price is right, all you need to do is get the repeater installed, sounds simple right? Some thigs to consider first and foremost are the costs because they can add up quickly. Are you on a commercial tower that requires a license and bonded climber? If so this could be by far your largest expense depending on your area. I have spent $600 to $1200 on a climber; I have had quotes as high as $2500 depending on the amount of work and heights involved.  Keep in mind commercial sites require certified mounts, hard line cable, cable clamps, engineered grounding solutions and commercial grade antennas. No tower owner is going to let you install a comet antenna and 200’ of braided shield coax.
 
This brings me to my next point, the antenna. Because of the costs involved with climbers you will want to expend your budget on the antenna. Remember a $2000 repeater on a $200 antenna is going to work about as good as a $200 repeater.  Whereas a $200 repeater on a $2000 antenna is going to work like a $2000 repeater. On my first repeater I was gifted use of a 150’ tower, I installed a DB-420 on the top and 160’ of 7/8 hardline. Total cost of equipment for the antenna install was $2500, with the climbers labor coming in at an additional $800. This left me with enough to purchase an old Motorola R100 repeater running at 25W. To my surprise it had 30 miles of coverage, all due to the cash spent on the antenna and waiting for a decent spot.
 
Things happen, more so if you have an antenna 200’ in the air with a conductive cable connected to sensitive electronics. Antenna issues, feedline issues, repeater issues all cost money and I promise at some point you will have issues that need repair and require your money!
 
It is my opinion that the GMRS community does not need another 2 to 5 miles repeater as it just becomes background noise. What use is a public listed repeater if somebody in a mobile can’t use it 5 miles away while moving or the portable coverage is only a mile? If after reading this you are still going to build a repeater for your garage more power to you, just don’t expect 20 people to show up if it only reaches a mile.
 
As the owner of several GMRS and Commercial repeaters I can attest to the amount of money and effort go into my repeaters. I have only touched on the basics, if you add in any kind of testing services, duplexer tuning, addition of a combiner channel to an existing tower system, RF engineering, rent and insurance your costs can sky rocket. The best advice I can give any new licensee is to try and use the available systems in the area. Take the time to learn a little about what you’re doing and to assess the usability of the service before investing in a repeater for the sole reason of saying you own one.

I might add that GMRS has tolerances as far as frequency that are far lower then most HAM gear. With GMRS being smack in the middle of the part 90 portion of the band it is important to maintain some type of standard as to not cause interference to the adjacent service. Requiring a type accepted and certified transmitter is the best way to do this. Posted this again just to be clear, I am a HAM but use part 90 gear for UHF and VHF. If the chart below posts you will see that typical HAM banded gear can allow error rates as high as 10ppm, With GMRS being a wide band service in the middle of the narrow banded part part 90 service its important to use certified transmitters. I have had plenty of HAM gear on my Aeroflex 2975, very little would pass 2.5ppm tolerance. 
 
http://mwgmrs.com/mygmrs/error.jpg

I might add that GMRS has tolerances as far as frequency that are far lower then most HAM gear. With GMRS being smack in the middle of the part 90 portion of the band it is important to maintain some type of standard as to not cause interference to the adjacent service. Requiring a type accepted and certified transmitter is the best way to do this. Posted this again just to be clear, I am a HAM but use part 90 gear for UHF and VHF. If the chart below posts you will see that typical HAM banded gear can allow error rates as high as 10ppm, With GMRS being a wide band service in the middle of the narrow banded part part 90 service its important to use certified transmitters. I have had plenty of HAM gear on my Aeroflex 2975, very little would pass 2.5ppm tolerance. 
 
http://mwgmrs.com/mygmrs/error.jpg

Linking is the least of this guys issues, he claims to be building a nationwide GMRS network and plans to charge users for access. He also claims to have 150 repeaters in his shop with tower space, internet and linking hardware ready to go. Best part, hes a new license holder, checking his FRN on FCC shows hes not involved in any other type of radio and hes plastering the main site with tons of future repeaters. This is all sham and the FCC is already aware of him and looking into it. If his pay for play network is real hes in big trouble....... Not sure how long Rich is going to let this guy fill his site with fake networks and repeaters. I found the website, poor grammar and the page looks to be made in MS word and Paint.
 
http://www.usgmrsgroup.club/

What does “duty cycle” mean?
 
I bring up duty cycle every time I hear somebody talking about making a repeater out of cheap Chinese mobiles and worse any type of handhelds. Duty cycle is the maximum time an amplifier may transmit within a five minute interval, expressed as a percentage, to avoid overheating. Suppose a mobile amplifier is rated at 30% duty cycle. This means that it may transmit for no longer than 1.5 minutes and must remain off for not less than 3.5 minutes. Some people forget that a repeater is transmitting for 2 or more people, duty cycle will be reached quickly if you get into conversation. More people in the conversation just amplifies the issue.
 
Once a radio reaches it's thermal design limits it will no longer be able to adequately cool the output transistors. Even if a radio is not hot to the touch the transistors are, in part because of the inefficient transfer of heat to the units housing or internal heat sink. The longer you exceed the duty cycle the more heat builds on the transistors, surrounding electronics and heat sink effecting it's ability to remain on frequency without spurious emissions. Exceed duty cycle long enough and you will need a new transmitter or radio.
 
I have tested a few Baofang and TYT radios on my service monitor without great results. All of the radios started deviating outside of the allotted channel bandwidth after simulated conversation at 50% duty cycle, the longer I allowed this the worse if got. Testing was done using an Aeroflex 2975 IFR recently back from the calibration lab. 
 
GMRS is a tiny sliver of spectrum surrounded by the commercial land mobile part 90 service. It is important that any repeaters that are built or re-purposed are held to the highest standards and operated as to not cause any interference inside or outside of our allocated spectrum. I wont get into the part 90/95 debate but i do stand firm that non certified import equipment has no place on GMRS. 

Great follow up! I was hoping this topic would generate some conversation. I personally don't own any repeaters that are less then full duty cycle and I dont use time out timers on the repeaters. We link several machines together using VOIP and at times the conversations can get long winded with many users engaging I have seen them go for 45 min or longer. In the beginning we set the TOT for 2 min and had different machines resetting at different times causing lots of missed conversations etc. After a year of that we went to a system wide TOT of 5 min and that's been working out great as all the machines will reset at once. As far as the repeaters, we only use Motorola MTR2000's of the 100 watt configuration. At full power these machines are designed for 100% duty cycle, so at our allowed 50 watts they are hardly breaking a sweat.

What does “duty cycle” mean?
 
I bring up duty cycle every time I hear somebody talking about making a repeater out of cheap Chinese mobiles and worse any type of handhelds. Duty cycle is the maximum time an amplifier may transmit within a five minute interval, expressed as a percentage, to avoid overheating. Suppose a mobile amplifier is rated at 30% duty cycle. This means that it may transmit for no longer than 1.5 minutes and must remain off for not less than 3.5 minutes. Some people forget that a repeater is transmitting for 2 or more people, duty cycle will be reached quickly if you get into conversation. More people in the conversation just amplifies the issue.
 
Once a radio reaches it's thermal design limits it will no longer be able to adequately cool the output transistors. Even if a radio is not hot to the touch the transistors are, in part because of the inefficient transfer of heat to the units housing or internal heat sink. The longer you exceed the duty cycle the more heat builds on the transistors, surrounding electronics and heat sink effecting it's ability to remain on frequency without spurious emissions. Exceed duty cycle long enough and you will need a new transmitter or radio.
 
I have tested a few Baofang and TYT radios on my service monitor without great results. All of the radios started deviating outside of the allotted channel bandwidth after simulated conversation at 50% duty cycle, the longer I allowed this the worse if got. Testing was done using an Aeroflex 2975 IFR recently back from the calibration lab. 
 
GMRS is a tiny sliver of spectrum surrounded by the commercial land mobile part 90 service. It is important that any repeaters that are built or re-purposed are held to the highest standards and operated as to not cause any interference inside or outside of our allocated spectrum. I wont get into the part 90/95 debate but i do stand firm that non certified import equipment has no place on GMRS. 

I have not had any issues with Comscope, I can't say that for RFS, several have shorted internally.
 
That cable job was to cure some issues with a paging transmitter next to me getting into the amp, it did solve the issue. I am sure i could have used something smaller but i had a ton of 1/2 on hand.

I never read to the bottom of this thread, just wanted to share my 1/2" Heliax plumbing job on this part 90 DMR repeater
 
http://mwgmrs.com/mygmrs/jumpers.jpg

I just have to ask, why would you set up a repeater if you have no idea how to program it or how it works? I highly recommend reading my post here. https://forums.mygmrs.com/topic/1402-you-just-got-your-gmrs-license-now-you-want-your-own-repeater/

https://mygmrs.com  click on the map link