Emergency comms: HAM or GMRS?

[GuySagi]

13 hours ago, gman1971 said:

Well, 1 watt on VHF will reach a LOT further than 2 watt on UHF, under nearly all conditions, and especially so if you append the keyword Motorola to it. 1 watt VHF is equivalent, roughly, to ~10W UHF, or around 10 dB difference in free space loss at equal distance. VHF also hugs the terrain much better too... again, VHF-hi beats the pants off UHF for long range comms.

My XPR7550e radios, on VHF, on just 1W can reach well over 2 miles under most conditions, and in open terrain, atop a modest sized hill we've managed 20 miles on 1 W VHF, with the 6.5 inch duck... again, even my XPR7550e in UHF flavor can't compete with the VHF variants at the long range game.  VHF != UHF, an those 10 dB of additional loss per equal distance is a significant difference between the two bands that cannot be easily overcome with rubber duck antennas.

Now, if you involve repeaters and other infrastructure, then that will be certainly a huge crutch for crap CCR radios (be it FRS, or penta-band CCR garbage) 

Motorola, ICOM, Kenwood, Vertex, et. all, commercial or LEO grade radios, even on 1W, are not the same thing as a FRS HT... not even close.

G.

Sure no argument on VHF beating the pants off UHF in most outdoor cases, or the poor performance of cheap radios. I can beat you on 1 watt VHF distance, though. 155.16 mhz, on a cliff at night (elevation maybe 7,000 feet), I had no problem sending vitals to the helicopter PJ as he and the pilot waited for authorization to take off (they were at about 2,800 feet). Distance 30 miles, Motorola brick in my hand and I have no clue what the Air Force had in that old UH1 Huey at the time, but it was obviously amazing. Straight line of sight, unimpeded, but crystal clear enough I that I breathed a sigh of relief when I could hear the blades whir to life. I was young and dumb enough to take that kind of performance for granted, sigh. 

[gman1971]

Well, like I said, VHF reaches very far... at 20 miles, or 30 miles, etc, that is already pretty decent range... for 1 w.

Antennas on helicopters vary, it could've been a good old inverted Vee dipole on the tail (like the OH-6 had) etc... 

[gman1971]

On 10/25/2021 at 9:33 PM, Lscott said:

if VHF != UHF {
    UHF *= 10db_gain;

}
             

This will not compile, you are missing the declaration of VHF, UHF and 10db_gain.... along with brackets around the (VHF != UHF) if statement...

G.

[gman1971]

Depends on several factors to chose VHF over UHF (or the other way around). The biggest drawback of VHF as of lately is the ever increasing noise floor due to Cheap China LED bulbs... which pollute the heck out of the VHF band... also most electronics found inside buildings (in particular LED fixtures and wired Ethernet) will put out a lot of VHF noise, thus reducing your range indoors... so its a tradeoff, you need to determine the noise floor of the site, and determine with an RSSI meter which radio works best. The lower the noise threshold the better.

G.

[Lscott]

14 hours ago, gman1971 said:

This will not compile, you are missing the declaration of VHF, UHF and 10db_gain.... along with brackets around the (VHF != UHF) if statement...

G.

oops.

float VHF, UHF, 10db_gain;

if (VHF != UHF) {
    UHF *= 10db_gain;

}

[IanM]

On 10/28/2021 at 3:52 PM, gman1971 said:

Depends on several factors to chose VHF over UHF (or the other way around). The biggest drawback of VHF as of lately is the ever increasing noise floor due to Cheap China LED bulbs... which pollute the heck out of the VHF band... also most electronics found inside buildings (in particular LED fixtures and wired Ethernet) will put out a lot of VHF noise, thus reducing your range indoors... so its a tradeoff, you need to determine the noise floor of the site, and determine with an RSSI meter which radio works best. The lower the noise threshold the better.

G.

Interesting observation, and might explain my experiences. I'm maybe a mile and a half from a local 2m repeater up on a hill I regularly use, and the voice modulation comes in strong and clear, there's a very high noise floor of static and buzz. UHF, both 70cm and GMRS come in just fine, very quiet. I'm in a midrise in the middle of Seattle. There's for sure a lot of noise pollution in every band (don't even get me started about WiFi interference in a 150 unit building!), but that might be why VHF is particularly problematic. 

To the earlier topic about power vs sensitivity/selectivity; my observations jive with @mbrun as well as to there being little correlation; I was up on the roof doing a side-by-side with the 905G, UV8H and a commercial-grade Motorola  this evening, playing musical antennas (a test for another thread) and testing with someone on a distant repeater, both 70cm and GMRS. The 8W, SoC UV8H was the loser on all counts, and the 4W Motorola ( @gman1971—an XPR6550, also with the stock, albeit UHF antenna) came out way ahead on reception. Again, we're talking very fringe situations on a site 30+ miles away. 

That all said—I have no idea how Wyoming's SAR operates, but good on them for advertising this frequency. Looks like it's not actively monitored. @GuySagi, thanks for sharing your SAR experience as well, and I wonder what equipment they specifically will implement; around here, both SAR volunteers and the Sheriff's Office are on VHF, so at the very least its another radio to pack.

Remember, we're not talking about intra-agency communications. We're talking about them being able to monitor a frequency in the off chance someone's got a radio on them, which is such a huge advantage. No, cheap bubble-packs are not the optimum means of communications backwoods, but it's still another tool, period—I can't think of anyone else I know outside my family and regular hiking friends that carry a radio of any kind, let alone the kind of gear we use here. If someone is going to have anything at all outside a cellphone, It'll likely be a Talkabout or a Midland or some such, capped at 5W, so the channel itself is sort of a moot point as long as it's memorable. That might be a problem for those with a 50W mobile with power output locked on certain channels, but I also think most of us here might be savvy enough to figure a way around that.

For myself, if I'm in the woods (as I somewhat often am) and an emergency arises outside a cell site, heck, I'll try anything—146.52, GMRS 1 or 20, any repeater on either service. Tremendously valuable just to have that with me anyway.

[gman1971]

18 hours ago, Lscott said:

oops.

float VHF, UHF, 10db_gain;

if (VHF != UHF) {
    UHF *= 10db_gain;

}

Well, thats better, but you will get some warnings about uninitialized variables ... LOL

G.

[gman1971]

2 hours ago, IanM said:

Interesting observation, and might explain my experiences. I'm maybe a mile and a half from a local 2m repeater up on a hill I regularly use, and the voice modulation comes in strong and clear, there's a very high noise floor of static and buzz. UHF, both 70cm and GMRS come in just fine, very quiet. I'm in a midrise in the middle of Seattle. There's for sure a lot of noise pollution in every band (don't even get me started about WiFi interference in a 150 unit building!), but that might be why VHF is particularly problematic. 

To the earlier topic about power vs sensitivity/selectivity; my observations jive with @mbrun as well as to there being little correlation; I was up on the roof doing a side-by-side with the 905G, UV8H and a commercial-grade Motorola  this evening, playing musical antennas (a test for another thread) and testing with someone on a distant repeater, both 70cm and GMRS. The 8W, SoC UV8H was the loser on all counts, and the 4W Motorola ( @gman1971—an XPR6550, also with the stock, albeit UHF antenna) came out way ahead on reception. Again, we're talking very fringe situations on a site 30+ miles away. 

That all said—I have no idea how Wyoming's SAR operates, but good on them for advertising this frequency. Looks like it's not actively monitored. @GuySagi, thanks for sharing your SAR experience as well, and I wonder what equipment they specifically will implement; around here, both SAR volunteers and the Sheriff's Office are on VHF, so at the very least its another radio to pack.

Remember, we're not talking about intra-agency communications. We're talking about them being able to monitor a frequency in the off chance someone's got a radio on them, which is such a huge advantage. No, cheap bubble-packs are not the optimum means of communications backwoods, but it's still another tool, period—I can't think of anyone else I know outside my family and regular hiking friends that carry a radio of any kind, let alone the kind of gear we use here. If someone is going to have anything at all outside a cellphone, It'll likely be a Talkabout or a Midland or some such, capped at 5W, so the channel itself is sort of a moot point as long as it's memorable. That might be a problem for those with a 50W mobile with power output locked on certain channels, but I also think most of us here might be savvy enough to figure a way around that.

For myself, if I'm in the woods (as I somewhat often am) and an emergency arises outside a cell site, heck, I'll try anything—146.52, GMRS 1 or 20, any repeater on either service. Tremendously valuable just to have that with me anyway.

 

Absolutely, carrying a properly setup radio on you is having another means of communication at your disposal, more so if you've also taken the time, and gone through the effort, to setup a solid infrastructure around it to meet your needs.

Unfortunately, tho, for most people it will be just dead weight, given than most people won't even bother learning how to use the radio, let alone build any infrastructure to use it even remotely effective.

Emergencies are all about fringe situations, as in: if something can go wrong, it will, and the worst possible moment...  and when something goes wrong, you really want on you a radio that has the capability to save your life... (not that it will) but also keep in mind that a radio is only as useful/important/capable as the person listening on the other side is... so you really want to make sure beforehand that your radio is capable of reaching the people that can, and will do something about the situation.

G.

[MichaelLAX]

You never know what information can result in a rescue.

Local Ham, Benjamin Kuo, AI6YR:

Missing Hiker Found After Man Using Computer at Home Pinpoints His Location

 

[Lscott]

15 hours ago, gman1971 said:

Well, thats better, but you will get some warnings about uninitialized variables ... LOL

G.

I believe they would be initialized to zero by default. One could also set the compiler warnings to ignore it too depending on whose you use.

[gman1971]

On 10/30/2021 at 7:03 PM, Lscott said:

I believe they would be initialized to zero by default. One could also set the compiler warnings to ignore it too depending on whose you use.

Only when optimizations are disabled, once you do /03, etc the memory is not guaranteed to be zero.  lol

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, gman1971 said:

Only when optimizations are disabled, once you do /03, etc the memory is not guaranteed to be zero.  lol

You're likely right about that. I haven't written much code in a while. I do mostly power electronics design. From time to time I do get involved with some embedded microcontroller stuff.  

[GMRSNetwork]

On 3/9/2021 at 6:47 PM, n4gix said:

Here in NW Indiana District 1, we are in the process of integrating GMRS repeaters and operators into the revived ARES program. Training is being given, and periodic exercises are being conducted. The goal is to have trained and efficient coms in case of emergencies.

I visited your area, great repeaters! However, one in particular served as a political, religious, and ideological stump during a "rag chew" net. Kind of off-putting. Politics & religion should be off the table if you want a community-based communications group that truly represents the people. 

[WRUE951]

2 hours ago, WRUQ758 said:

I visited your area, great repeaters! However, one in particular served as a political, religious, and ideological stump during a "rag chew" net. Kind of off-putting. Politics & religion should be off the table if you want a community-based communications group that truly represents the people. 

I think you missed the boat..  The local repeaters are being 'integrated' for purpose of emergency uses during times of emergencies, which is a good idea.   These repeaters are still owned by private parties and these owners may have no problem with what content is discussed on their repeater.  Even many HAM repeaters are no longer policing or controlling discussions and allowing civil freedom of speech. As far as i'm concerned, speak your mind, just keep it civil.    

[WSEZ864]

10 hours ago, WRUE951 said:

I think you missed the boat..  The local repeaters are being 'integrated' for purpose of emergency uses during times of emergencies, which is a good idea.   These repeaters are still owned by private parties and these owners may have no problem with what content is discussed on their repeater.  Even many HAM repeaters are no longer policing or controlling discussions and allowing civil freedom of speech. As far as i'm concerned, speak your mind, just keep it civil.    

Agreed. Our ham club operates two repeaters and as long as discussion remains civil, there is no real limit to what subjects may be discussed.

Most operators do avoid volatile subjects just out of simple courtesy, knowing some subjects can evoke strong emotions. Another aspect is the "shared" nature of repeaters and some subjects tend to devolve into one-on-one debates that can exclude other users unless there is a control station involved. One should be mindful of what their choice of topics is inflicting on fellow users - your opinion might be correct and popular (like mine), but then other listeners have to hear the opposing idiot's take on it. Boring, but better to keep it bland; gall bladders, hemorrhoids, reflux, lunch menus, stuff like that...

[WSEZ864]

12 hours ago, WRUQ758 said:

I visited your area, great repeaters! However, one in particular served as a political, religious, and ideological stump during a "rag chew" net. Kind of off-putting. Politics & religion should be off the table if you want a community-based communications group that truly represents the people. 

There ARE some places one might go that specialize in controversial subjects, and take pride in their ability to have free-speech discussions. If the subject at hand isn't interesting, spin the dial.

[WRUE951]

44 minutes ago, WSEZ864 said:

Agreed. Our ham club operates two repeaters and as long as discussion remains civil, there is no real limit to what subjects may be discussed.

Most operators do avoid volatile subjects just out of simple courtesy, knowing some subjects can evoke strong emotions. Another aspect is the "shared" nature of repeaters and some subjects tend to devolve into one-on-one debates that can exclude other users unless there is a control station involved. One should be mindful of what their choice of topics is inflicting on fellow users - your opinion might be correct and popular (like mine), but then other listeners have to hear the opposing idiot's take on it. Boring, but better to keep it bland; gall bladders, hemorrhoids, reflux, lunch menus, stuff like that...

I go by the rule,, if i don't like what im hearing, i change the channel or selct the off button. ..  Same goes for news channels.   Nothing in this world forces me to listen to something i dislike and or where my opinion doesn't matter.   Over  a week ago there was some discussions on my repeater about the Charile Kirk deal.. Out of fear the discussion would esculate  to anger i almost shut down my repeater.   But i let the discusscio go and it turned out i actully joined in and it tunred out to be an enjoyable discussion. Even  other people  joined in.    Completely Civil.   Freedom of speech is what this country is all about and i i even felt bad for thinking i was goint to shut the conversation down..  Shame on me..  

[WRQI583]

From what I have noticed, Neither!
Go to your local EMA/EOC/EMC or whatever they call it in your area, and get a job there. In my area, when we have disasters such as widespread road closures, power outages and flooding from storms, it is not Ham Radio or GMRS that saves the day nor is it what is used to communicate. It is the guys at the local EMA who operate EMA radios who do the coordinating between the 911 RCC and the power companies and shelters. I don't know if there are areas of the country where Ham or GMRS is still used, but the norm where I am is public safety and their counterparts. Make sure you check into this before investing in a ton of EMCOMM radio stuff. You may not need to bother with the licenses. I am sure that it will help if you do have them and by all means go for both, but if you are only looking for EMCOMM stuff, you may be able to get away with just joining the local emergency agency for your state or county.

[WSEZ864]

Our local emergency communications system coordinates with our club on 'Field Day'. Their mobile EmComm RV is impressive and they bring it out to our location, set up and allow us to operate from it. They have radios installed for every common service, antennas mounted on the vehicle and a patch panel on the side that allows them to use remote antenna connections.

[WRZK526]

As many forms of comms as you can get. GMRS radio's are reasonable and easy to use and the license is also easy and cheap. It also depends on how many repeaters you have access to and how involved others in your community are. I am very lucky in my area I can hit repeaters from 25 to 50+ miles away and a very active GMRS community. Even if you do not have a HAM license get one have someone program it for you and in an emergency you can always listen and if needed scream out for help.  

[AdmiralCochrane]

8 hours ago, WRZK526 said:

As many forms of comms as you can get. GMRS radio's are reasonable and easy to use and the license is also easy and cheap. It also depends on how many repeaters you have access to and how involved others in your community are. I am very lucky in my area I can hit repeaters from 25 to 50+ miles away and a very active GMRS community. Even if you do not have a HAM license get one have someone program it for you and in an emergency you can always listen and if needed scream out for help.  

But is is best to learn the advantages and limitations before the emergency to know what to expect from the hardware.

[WRZK526]

36 minutes ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

But is is best to learn the advantages and limitations before the emergency to know what to expect from the hardware.

Like that great philosopher once said "A man has to know his limitations"

[nokones]

Any normal person that has the ability to successfully pass the Technician Class Amateur Radio Service License exam should also have the knowledge/skills to program radios or have the skills to quickly learn how. But I guess when a majority of the people seeking a Technician License only skill is, remembering the answers to the exam, and they have no clue about anything radio, is the product you get these days. That is typical of the younger generations.

I am really amazed with the number of people that I program radios for, and have their Technician License, really don't know anything about which frequency and tone to program in their radios. What is this world coming to.

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, nokones said:

I am really amazed with the number of people that I program radios for, and have their Technician License, really don't know anything about which frequency and tone to program in their radios. What is this world coming to.

I wouldn't be too hard on people for this. I just finished programming some Chinese radios, RT-860's and RT-880G, for a couple of the older guys in my radio coffee group. They were in their 70's and 80's with Extra class licenses too. The programming software had ZERO help files so either you waste a lot of time watching a bunch of YouTube videos or guess. With as many radios I've programmed over the years I still got things wrong. The Chinese radios don't always function in a logical manner. Without the help files all you can do is guess, try it out, and try again. 

[WRUE951]

6 hours ago, nokones said:

I am really amazed with the number of people that I program radios for, and have their Technician License, really don't know anything about which frequency and tone to program in their radios. What is this world coming to.

But i'll bet they have decent 'memories'