Are there frequencies that I can use 50 watts on simplex, that are not on repeater output freq ?

[WRMS528]

I have posed this question not knowing if its allowable to transmit on repeater output and or input frequencies in simplex.

I would prefer to use as little power as needed to make the trip.  But if needed are there frequencies I can transmit simplex on full power ?  Even if I use different PL tones or no tones , as to not directly interfere (transmit) over the repeater, would GMRS users monitoring repeater frequencies here me.  Or do most people use a TSQL to only here repeater transmissions ? Even if all repeater users used a TSQL, could me being on the freq. still cause interference ?   Also, I guess it would be best for me to pick a freq. that isnt used by a repeater close to me.  

thanks wrms528

 

 

[mbrun]

I have posed this question not knowing if its allowable to transmit on repeater output and or input frequencies in simplex.
I would prefer to use as little power as needed to make the trip.  But if needed are there frequencies I can transmit simplex on full power ?  Even if I use different PL tones or no tones , as to not directly interfere (transmit) over the repeater, would GMRS users monitoring repeater frequencies here me.  Or do most people use a TSQL to only here repeater transmissions ? Even if all repeater users used a TSQL, could me being on the freq. still cause interference ?   Also, I guess it would be best for me to pick a freq. that isnt used by a repeater close to me.  
thanks wrms528
 
 

Absolutely. Eight of the main GMRS frequencies (462.550, .575, .600, .625, .650, .675, .700, .725) are all allowed 50watts when used simplex or with a repeater. These are often called channels 15-22. Their 467MHZ companions (i.e. the other eight main GMRS frequencies) are not permitted for simplex use.

If you were to illegally use the 467MHz Main frequencies for simplex, you are likely to negatively affect local repeaters that use them as their input frequencies, so do not ever do that.

You are on the right track. Always use as little power as necessary to get the job done. Finally, you are also on the right track too to pick a simplex frequency that is not being used so as to avoid interference with others. That is always a wise decision.

Hope this helps.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[MichaelLAX]

On 7/2/2021 at 4:33 AM, mbrun said:

...Their 467MHZ companions (i.e. the other eight main GMRS frequencies) are not permitted for simplex use.

If you were to illegally use the 467MHz Main frequencies for simplex, you are likely to negatively affect local repeaters that use them as their input frequencies, so do not ever do that...

What exactly do you mean by "illegally?"

How would you know if we are using 467.xxxx simplex or simply as the input to a repeater that you cannot hear?

[mbrun]

What exactly do you mean by "illegally?"
How would you know if we are using 467.xxxx simplex or simply as the input to a repeater that you cannot hear?

Technically the average user would not know if you were using the repeater input frequencies in a simplex capacity. The issue with using the GMRS main 467.xxxxx frequencies for simplex is that use of them can render area repeaters ineffective or perhaps even useless if there were to be wide-spread traffic on them.

What I mean by “illegally” is a follows from the FCC Part 95 rules:

95.1763 © 467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and control stations may transmit on these channels only when communicating through a repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with § 95.319©. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.

By leaving these main frequencies solely for repeater input frequencies we preserve the usefulness of the service with repeaters. It has been reported on this forum and elsewhere that even the use of the 467 interstitials by FRS radios has been a become a serious problem for some repeaters.

Hope that helps.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[MichaelLAX]

That does help; thank you!

Looking at the section of Part 95 you quote, it is clear to me that a fixed station can communicate on simplex with another fixed station on these so-called repeater input channels.

Of course, all interference is to be avoided, including using the output frequencies for simplex; and can be easily avoided with a bit of research and experience reviewing these channels for local repeaters.

In any event, I think that the word "illegally" is a bit harsh and off base for simplex communications by fixed stations (that do not interfere) on these channels.

[BoxCar]

No, the rule states THROUGH a repeater system. Units are limited to test transmissions only otherwise. Using an input frequency for simplex communications is not permitted.

[jwilkers]

In any event, I think that the word "illegally" is a bit harsh and off base for simplex communications (that do not interfere) on these channels.

No it is not. Simplex communication on those frequencies *is* illegal. It has been repeatedly explained to you.

Sent from my SM-A125U using Tapatalk

[MichaelLAX]

I’ll let the rule speak for itself:

“95.1763 © 467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and FIXED STATIONS may transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and control stations* may transmit on these channels only when communicating through a repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with § 95.319©. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.”

*NOTE: the lack of requirement through repeaters for FIXED STATIONS. 
 

You may not like the Rule; you may disagree with the Rule; but I’ll follow the language of the Rule and not your advice, no matter how many times the Rule is incorrectly explained to me. 

[SEIGLER001]

Quote

Even if all repeater users used a TSQL, could me being on the freq. still cause interference ?

Yes, especially if you are as strong or stronger than stations trying to access the repeater at the same time you are transmitting. If they open the repeater it won't matter if your PL is different. A good reason not to do it (and also a good reason to use as low power as possible when accessing your local repeater). Why not use the repeater outputs? Don't want to be heard by bubble packs?

[BoxCar]

2 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

I’ll let the rule speak for itself:

“95.1763 © 467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and FIXED STATIONS may transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and control stations* may transmit on these channels only when communicating through a repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with § 95.319©. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.”

*NOTE: the lack of requirement through repeaters for FIXED STATIONS. 
 

You may not like the Rule; you may disagree with the Rule; but I’ll follow the language of the Rule and not your advice, no matter how many times the Rule is incorrectly explained to me. 

Like I stated, you need to read ALL the rules.

47 CFR 90.7 Base station. A station at a specified site authorized to communicate with mobile stations.

Control station. An Operational Fixed Station, the transmissions of which are used to control automatically the emissions or operation of another radio station at a specified location.

Fixed relay station. A station at a specified site used to communicate with another station at another specified site.

Land station. A station in the mobile service not intended to be used while in motion. [As used in this part, the term may be used to describe a base, control, fixed, operational fixed or fixed relay station, or any such station authorized to operate in the “temporary” mode.]

Mobile station. A station in the mobile service intended to be used while in motion or during halts at unspecified points. This includes hand carried transmitters.

Mobile relay station. A base station in the mobile service authorized to retransmit automatically on a mobile service frequency communications which originate on the transmitting frequency of the mobile station.

Mobile repeater station. A mobile station authorized to retransmit automatically on a mobile service frequency, communications to or from hand-carried transmitters.

Operational fixed station. A fixed station, not open to public correspondence, operated by, and for the sole use of those agencies operating their own radiocommunication facilities in the Public Safety, Industrial, Land Transportation, Marine, or Aviation Radio Services. (This includes all stations in the fixed service under this part.)

Person. An individual, partnership, association, joint stock company, trust or corporation.

 

[MichaelLAX]

47 CFR § 95.303 - Definitions...

Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed  stations only.

47 CFR § 95.1763 - GMRS channels...

(c) 467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may  transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and  control stations [but NOT fixed stations] may  transmit on these channels only when communicating through a  repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with § 95.319(c). The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.

[emphasis and additions mine]

Hence: Fixed Stations may talk simplex to other fixed stations on these frequencies.

Your mileage obviously differs! 

[BoxCar]

While we can continue this discussion on almost ad infinitium, you cannot use a hand-held transmitter on those frequencies except through a repeater. Control stations are used for the purpose of automation such as turning remote devices on or off or reporting status such as water levels in tanks and rivers or activating sprinkler systems. Control stations are in fixed locations meaning they are not meant to be moved from where they are installed. For a GMRS example, a repeater's input receiver functions as a control station in that its purpose is to trigger the output transmitter. Its transmitter is not used. While in practice two mobile or base transceivers are often used to construct a repeater site, each of the two units only uses half their capabilities. The two sections are hardwired together to form one unit. In any shape or form, a hand-held transmitter is defined as a mobile unit even if it is cast in concrete and cannot move. I suggest you drop a note to the FCC Wireless Telecommunications Bureau and ask their opinion of your scheme. I have found them to be quite responsive to queries of this type in my experience as a frequency coordinator under this section of the regulations. (And yes, you can look up the definition of a frequency coordinator in 90.7.)

[mbrun]

47 CFR § 95.303 - Definitions...

Fixed station. A station at a fixed location that directly communicates with other fixed  stations only.
47 CFR § 95.1763 - GMRS channels...
© 467 MHz main channels. Only mobile, hand-held portable, control and fixed stations may  transmit on these 8 channels. Mobile, hand-held portable and  control stations [but NOT fixed stations] may  transmit on these channels only when communicating through a  repeater station or making brief test transmissions in accordance with § 95.319©. The channel center frequencies are: 467.5500, 467.5750, 467.6000, 467.6250, 467.6500, 467.6750, 467.7000, and 467.7250 MHz.
[emphasis and additions mine]
Hence: Fixed Stations may talk simplex to other fixed stations on these frequencies.
Your mileage obviously differs! 

Good Day Michael,

I think you are hung up on the bending the term “Fixed Station” to our lay definition of it. I get it. I wrestled it as well for a long time also. We are playing with a term that has a steep legal meaning and tradition. While you may have a station at your home that never moves (i.e. is fixed), and you intend to use it communicate always and forever with only one other person that has a station at their home that too intends to use it to always and forever talk only to you, I do not believe it is likely to happen and do believe this meets the FCC’s legal definition and intent of an FCC fixed station. Of course, I am not a lawyer.

Given how much manufacturers like to push legal limits, I think it is fair to say if any manufacturer could even remotely conclude that simplex communication on the 467 main channels was legal they would certainly have them already programmed into hardware so they could sell them as 38 channel radios instead of 22 or 30 that they do now.

No matter how you slice and dice it, what makes GMRS special is the fact that it allows and supports repeaters. If people start operating simplex using repeater input frequencies the repeaters will loose their effectiveness do to all the interference. Once that happens you are back to bubble wrap radio performance in the service.

Respectfully,


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[WRNA236]

1 hour ago, mbrun said:

Good Day Michael,

I think you are hung up on the bending the term “Fixed Station” to our lay definition of it. I get it. I wrestled it as well for a long time also. We are playing with a term that has a steep legal meaning and tradition. While you may have a station at your home that never moves (i.e. is fixed), and you intend to use it communicate always and forever with only one other person that has a station at their home that too intends to use it to always and forever talk only to you, I do not believe it is likely to happen and do believe this meets the FCC’s legal definition and intent of an FCC fixed station. Of course, I am not a lawyer.

This is a fixed station. 

It's similar to a base or repeater station in that it's in a fixed location.  But key distinctions are that it's normally unmanned (like a repeater but mainly different than a base).

Fixed stations also usually talk only to other fixed stations (e.g. a remote sensing site talks back to a central site collecting data), which means they usually have Yagis and don't have wide, general coverage.  They also may operate on a predictable schedule on predetermined frequencies.

BTW, this isn't a GMRS fixed station, but rather a weather station in Rocky Mountain National Park that sends data from the Loch Vale watershed for the USGS and NOAA.

 

[n4gix]

16 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

*NOTE: the lack of requirement through repeaters for FIXED STATIONS. 

Fixed Stations by definition cannot communicate through a repeater. Fixed Stations communicate with other Fixed Stations.

[MichaelLAX]

7 hours ago, mbrun said:

Given how much manufacturers like to push legal limits, I think it is fair to say if any manufacturer could even remotely conclude that simplex communication on the 467 main channels was legal they would certainly have them already programmed into hardware so they could sell them as 38 channel radios instead of 22 or 30 that they do now...

Really?!?

 

Q.E.D.

[MichaelLAX]

7 hours ago, mbrun said:

No matter how you slice and dice it, what makes GMRS special is the fact that it allows and supports repeaters. If people start operating simplex using repeater input frequencies the repeaters will loose their effectiveness do to all the interference. Once that happens you are back to bubble wrap radio performance in the service.

I always stress it would have to be operated with such research and utility as to NOT cause interference.

Are Hams prohibited by FCC Rule from transmitting on the input frequencies of out of area Ham repeaters?

[gortex2]

28 minutes ago, MichaelLAX said:

Really?!?

 

Q.E.D.

Being that has VHF ham stuff guessing its not a Part 95 mobile which is what he was referring to. If your using a true GMRS mobile it will not TX on any of the 467.xxx repeater splits other than in R mode.

 

[BoxCar]

1 hour ago, MichaelLAX said:

Are Hams prohibited by FCC Rule from transmitting on the input frequencies of out of area Ham repeaters?

Amateurs are restricted to bands of frequencies that are not channelized. Depending on a ham's authorization they may transmit on any frequency within that range. FRS/GMRS users are not authorized to operate on any frequency within their band but only on specific frequencies (channels) within that band allocation. FRS/GMRS users are also limited in the type of emission their radio may use. Amateurs are not to allow for the development of new emission types which may be adopted by other services. Amateurs also use frequency coordinators to assign repeater channels and once that frequency is assigned other hams avoid the input and output frequencies to prevent interference. Additionally, repeater frequencies are assigned from a specific frequency range in each band which is also published. 

[MichaelLAX]

2 hours ago, kb2ztx said:

Being that has VHF ham stuff guessing its not a Part 95 mobile which is what he was referring to. If your using a true GMRS mobile it will not TX on any of the 467.xxx repeater splits other than in R mode.

 

You’d better tell that to AnyTone (and Radioddity for their clone: DB20-G)

They’re the ones who included this capability in their Part 95 certification, and personally, I love being able to scan all my favorite 2 mtr, 70 cm and GMRS  repeaters all at the same time!

[MichaelLAX]

[reposted due to error]

[MichaelLAX]

1 hour ago, BoxCar said:

Amateurs also use frequency coordinators to assign repeater channels and once that frequency is assigned other hams avoid the input and output frequencies to prevent interference. 

[MichaelLAX]

So in other words, Hams can transmit simplex on the inputs of out of area repeaters. 

[jwilkers]

I always stress it would have to be operated with such research and utility as to NOT cause interference.
Are Hams prohibited by FCC Rule from transmitting on the input frequencies of out of area Ham repeaters?

Not by regulation. However, hams tend to follow voluntary band plans and gentleman's agreements.

Sent from my SM-A125U using Tapatalk

[JLeikhim]