What NOT to do

[WRKC935]

I just finished a conversation on one of my repeaters about the antics of an operator on the system last night. 

Like I personally have any control over it.  But then I realized I do have control of it.  By yanking the cord out of the wall feeding power to the repeaters.

At this point Johnstown675 and Johnstown600 (the linked repeater to midwest) are off. And may well be for good. 

 

So here's what NOT to do.  When you are a GMRS user, and you are using someone else's repeater FOR FREE because they make a serious effort to provide and maintain equipment for you to use.  Don't complain to them that someone 3 states away on a linked system was acting the fool, cussing and drunk on the repeater system.  It's a REALLY good way to make them mad.  For them to decide it's NOT worth the trouble to keep the equipment on the air and then decide to just pull the plug.

For those of you in this area that were using the link and the 675.  The jury is still out on what I am gonna do going forward.  You have ONE person to thank for it being gone.  And that's for you to figure out.  But I ain't listening to people complain to me about the actions of another on a linked system.  And if you happen to be the guy that complained.... CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!! You got the repeaters shut down.  SO there will be no more bad words on the repeater, since there will be no repeater.

 

RANT OFF>...

 

 

[kidphc]

Kinda sucks.

I feel for you. Only takes one bad apple to spoil it for everyone.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[MacJack]

36 minutes ago, WRKC935 said:

I just finished a conversation on one of my repeaters about the antics of an operator on the system last night. 

Like I personally have any control over it.  But then I realized I do have control of it.  By yanking the cord out of the wall feeding power to the repeaters.

At this point Johnstown675 and Johnstown600 (the linked repeater to midwest) are off. And may well be for good. 

 

So here's what NOT to do.  When you are a GMRS user, and you are using someone else's repeater FOR FREE because they make a serious effort to provide and maintain equipment for you to use.  Don't complain to them that someone 3 states away on a linked system was acting the fool, cussing and drunk on the repeater system.  It's a REALLY good way to make them mad.  For them to decide it's NOT worth the trouble to keep the equipment on the air and then decide to just pull the plug.

For those of you in this area that were using the link and the 675.  The jury is still out on what I am gonna do going forward.  You have ONE person to thank for it being gone.  And that's for you to figure out.  But I ain't listening to people complain to me about the actions of another on a linked system.  And if you happen to be the guy that complained.... CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!! You got the repeaters shut down.  SO there will be no more bad words on the repeater, since there will be no repeater.

 

RANT OFF>...

 

 

As a fellow repeater owner... I agree with your rant...  In fact, I have an aproved only closed repeater and first problem maker, change the codes.  Per FCC I have the rules in my favor.  There are two types of users, those so thankful and the other who think it like public access and they can say whatever.  Keep to you guns...

EDIT: My repeater is not listed and it more word of mouth, friend of a friend....

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by MacJack
added more comment

[Screech]

3 hours ago, MacJack said:

As a fellow repeater owner... I agree with your rant...  In fact, I have an aproved only closed repeater and first problem maker, change the codes.  Per FCC I have the rules in my favor.  There are two types of users, those so thankful and the other who think it like public access and they can say whatever.  Keep to you guns...

EDIT: My repeater is not listed and it more word of mouth, friend of a friend....

 

Yeah, but anyone with a scanner, or a decent radio can get any code you set it to as soon as you start using it. So you can stop them from using it, as long as you go silent as well.

 

[Lscott]

14 minutes ago, Screech said:

Yeah, but anyone with a scanner, or a decent radio can get any code you set it to as soon as you start using it. So you can stop them from using it, as long as you go silent as well.

 

I seem to remember somebody claimed to have setup their repeater as a trunked system which required the radio to electronically send its serial number. The serial number(s) for “approved” radios was entered into the repeater’s system software. In that case tones were useless to gain access. Spoofing a radio’s ESN takes expertise in hacking the radio’s firmware and or hex editing the image loaded into the radio’s micro’s memory. This is something basically your average repeater jammer/clown likely won’t have.

[Screech]

11 minutes ago, Lscott said:

I seem to remember somebody claimed to have setup their repeater as a trunked system which required the radio to electronically send its serial number. The serial number(s) for “approved” radios was entered into the repeater’s system software. In that case tones were useless to gain access. Spoofing a radio’s ESN takes expertise in hacking the radio’s firmware and or hex editing the image loaded into the radio’s micro’s memory. This is something basically your average repeater jammer/clown likely won’t have.

For jamming no trucking (I've not heard of this on GMRS, but I'm new to anything more than a basic radio) or CTCSS/DCS is going to matter if they have the wattage and duty cycle to hold the input frequency open. For clowns it sounds like a trunked setup could work, but I'm not familiar with how that would be setup on a simple GMRS radio, so perhaps that affects more than the clown losing access. Also, if they have the wattage and antenna, they could just talk around, so unless every user's radio supported trucked input (not sure I'm saying that right, but I think you'll understand) the clown can still troll some or all of the repeaters' users depending on location and range of output the clown has. 

Heck, even unplugging as the OP did the repeater the clown can keep going... even my most basic HT can monitor 467.xxx and TX on 462.xxx, so any user that wasn't aware of the repeater getting turned off is now in a one on one with a clown. 

[Lscott]

One specific example is the attached file.

Understanding Passport Radio Systems App Note.pdf

[Lscott]

2 minutes ago, Screech said:

For jamming no trucking (I've not heard of this on GMRS, but I'm new to anything more than a basic radio) or CTCSS/DCS is going to matter if they have the wattage and duty cycle to hold the input frequency open. For clowns it sounds like a trunked setup could work, but I'm not familiar with how that would be setup on a simple GMRS radio, so perhaps that affects more than the clown losing access. Also, if they have the wattage and antenna, they could just talk around, so unless every user's radio supported trucked input (not sure I'm saying that right, but I think you'll understand) the clown can still troll some or all of the repeaters' users depending on location and range of output the clown has. 

Heck, even unplugging as the OP did the repeater the clown can keep going... even my most basic HT can monitor 467.xxx and TX on 462.xxx, so any user that wasn't aware of the repeater getting turned off is now in a one on one with a clown. 

No measure is perfect. If the offender is persistent enough they can still be a problem. The idea is making it more work for them than any chuckles they might get out of it. After all if it’s a lot of work for them it’s not fun anymore.

The ESN method I’m aware of is Passport Trunking. There is the non serial number validation version commonly called Logical Trunked Radio, LTR, which might be enough of a hassle to detour the offender. It, however, uses a form of radio ID/address. Either one requires a commercial type radio with builtin trunking. Your typical cheap GMRS radios won’t have it. 
 

One thing about LTR, noted in the attached file, is it will network several repeaters together. This is a topic that has come up on this forum before. Might be a solution for some people.

LTR Systems.pdf

[WRDB702]

4 hours ago, WRKC935 said:

Like I personally have any control over it.  But then I realized I do have control of it.  By yanking the cord out of the wall feeding power to the repeaters.

At this point Johnstown675 and Johnstown600 (the linked repeater to midwest) are off.

So that's what happened??

  I was up on the roof of my house trying to determine the best location for the antenna at the time and thought I fried something.  I was scratching my head,  "Why can't I connect now that I'm on the roof? It was fine on the ground.!?" I did figure it out, but it was "fun" for a few minutes.

I was laughing about my timing, but now that I know it wasn't just maintenance, I'm not smiling anymore. 

I do hope there is a better solution, but after all the time & money you have invested, I don't fault you for not wanting to put up with the whining.

 

[Screech]

@Lscottthanks for sharing the info. I'm still not sure if that "can" be applied to GMRS. I'm sure the version that uses a channel for dedicated control data is not allowed. The decentralized setup that sends the data with voice audio, I'm not sure. I don't really have that much time to research that at the time, also little interest since I highly doubt that is a feature any of my radio would support. Offhand it feels like a commercial function and since only grandfathered businesses have GMRS licenses I'm not sure there is much value there to even look into getting a radio with those features. I would guess those majority radios are a bit older, from when businesses could obtain GMRS, for top of the business class pricing.  

[WRKC935]

Oh,,, geeze.  Long day. 

So first off.  I couldn't give a rip about the guy in Wisconsin getting blasted and then talking on the repeater,,, even if it was MY local repeater.  I am guessing he ruffled a few feathers.  I didn't hear him on today before I pulled the plug, and my guess is that he got up this morning and remembered what he did and out of pure embarrassment stayed off the air.  I believe there were a few comments made about him being blitzed as the night wore on. But again, don't care.... not my problem.  Others may feel differently, but that's my stance.

So what spun me into a rant filled tizzy.  I had a user of all 3 of the repeaters at the site contact me on one of the OTHER repeaters, not the 600 that's linked.  And he started in about the way the guy was drunk and using vulgarity (his words) on the repeater.  I replied that I had heard part of it and was aware.  I explained that it was a linked system and that I had little control over someone in the middle of the night, 3 states away acting the fool on the linked repeater system.  This for some reason didn't seem to be the response he was expecting.  Reading between the lines of what he was saying, he expected me to be equally offended and that it was totally unacceptable that someone acted that way and something needed to be done.  But I wasn't doing it and that was unacceptable in his mind.   So I reacted.  I keyed the radio up, told him he was right, and further more, since he was obviously offended by the FREE REPEATERS that I provide to the community, and that I would just pull the plug and he would no longer be offended.  Or if he was he wouldn't have me to complain to about it. 

Yes, to put it plainly, I was pissed that I was getting this passive aggressive holier than thou crap for someone I provide free GMRS repeater access to.  So I reacted in the most polite and politically correct manner I could muster.  I pulled the plug on two of the three repeaters. 

Ultimately, here's the real truth.  People say and do things that are not acceptable at times.  God knows I have, more than a bunch of times.  Now I haven't done it on a repeater, I refrain from that out of respect for others.  But I have more than a bunch of times went into a cuss word filled rant when something broke, didn't work as planned, got away from me and fell, fell on me, fell near me and was expensive, and a whole list of other reasons.  That's the way SOME people are... and I accept that.  Smack your thumb hard enough that the skin tears on the bottom side, not the side you hit, and try to refrain from letting the colorful adjectives come spewing forth.  If you can do that, you are a better man than I.  But people are people.  If you choose to NOT partake of the booze ( i personally don't) then cool.  If you choose to have a couple, that's fine.  And there are instances that a few turns into a few more and you might start acting dumb.  Again, human nature, and I ain't gonna judge.   Ol boy decided I personally needed to be offended by the acts of another.  And HE wanted to push HIS belief structure on ME.  THAT ain't gonna happen.  

 

 

 

[WRKC935]

Now, what LScott and a couple others were talking about.

RAC or repeater access code, which is a Motorola thing that sounds like MDC but isn't will control the access of a repeater if enabled.

First thing you need to know about it, it's only a Motorola thing.  So if you go down that road, only Motorola radios, WITH RAC ability will be able to access your repeater.

I suppose you COULD setup a single channel LTR trunking system and use that to control access.  But again, You are limiting access to a few radio types.  Standard conventional radios will not run on LTR.  So you would need to be very specific in the radios you choose to buy. 

 

My take is different.  If I am putting up a GMRS repeater, it's gonna be open.  I would rather pull the plug on it than need to go through dealing with all the crap of trying to put split PL's or RAC or any of that crap on it.  If I need to talk on the radio to someone else and I need it to be that tightly controlled, I will get a commercial repeater pair and load up some encryption in my radios and disappear.  Or just call them on the phone.  It's just simpler. 

If you are so worried about unauthorized people getting on your GMRS repeater, turn the stupid thing off and find another way to communicate.

 

[Lscott]

1 hour ago, WRKC935 said:

Now, what LScott and a couple others were talking about.

RAC or repeater access code, which is a Motorola thing that sounds like MDC but isn't will control the access of a repeater if enabled.

First thing you need to know about it, it's only a Motorola thing.  So if you go down that road, only Motorola radios, WITH RAC ability will be able to access your repeater.

I suppose you COULD setup a single channel LTR trunking system and use that to control access.  But again, You are limiting access to a few radio types.  Standard conventional radios will not run on LTR.  So you would need to be very specific in the radios you choose to buy. 

 

My take is different.  If I am putting up a GMRS repeater, it's gonna be open.  I would rather pull the plug on it than need to go through dealing with all the crap of trying to put split PL's or RAC or any of that crap on it.  If I need to talk on the radio to someone else and I need it to be that tightly controlled, I will get a commercial repeater pair and load up some encryption in my radios and disappear.  Or just call them on the phone.  It's just simpler. 

If you are so worried about unauthorized people getting on your GMRS repeater, turn the stupid thing off and find another way to communicate.

 

You use what works for you. It’s your repeater.

[marcspaz]

As a repeater owner, I support whatever you do. 

 

That said, I would have explained that as a repeater owner, you are only responsible for content that originates on your device.  You are not responsible for transmissions that originate on someone else's device.  If they have a complaint, they need to complain to the originating station. 

 

If that isn't good enough for them, its too bad.  The level of stress I am seeing in your post is way to high and not worth it.  Don't let them get to you.  If unplugging the system brings that stress level down, more power to you.

 

 

[WRPC505]

@WRKC935I don't own a repeater (and not sure that I ever will), but I have known many repeater owners over the years (both GMRS and Amateur Radio) and they have shared your pain at one time or another so I certainly understand what you're saying.

They are your repeaters, so you have to do whatever you need to do to keep them up for others to use. But ultimately, if that means pulling the plug on them because of an idiot or three...so be it. I can't say that I blame you one bit.

[ABTOCMEPTb]

People with power to pull the plug must be people with thick skin. "I am taking my ball and going home" is very immature. At best can be done silently. Leave drama to opposite sex.

[marcspaz]

43 minutes ago, ABTOCMEPTb said:

People with power to pull the plug must be people with thick skin. "I am taking my ball and going home" is very immature.

It's personal property.  We don't owe anyone anything.  I think stopping someone from verbally abusing you and threatening you by removing their access to your personal property sounds smart, not immature.  

Too many people seem to overlook the point that this is personal property and the owner has all the rights and privileges that go with that honor.

  

43 minutes ago, ABTOCMEPTb said:

At best can be done silently. Leave drama to opposite sex.

 

Just my opinion, rather have the owner hear venting instead of losing their cool.  Having people to talk to and work through problems is healthy and we are hear to support like-minded people in the GMRS community.  Sounds like the perfect place for the discussion.

 

[Sshannon]

It’s absolutely his right to shut it down, but it might have been a little less “scorched earth” if he had simply found a way to block the complaints from the repeater user who was whining about outside traffic.  There’s no point in owning and operating a repeater if ownership causes such misery. At this point his repeater users might not consider the repeater reliable.

If he has gotten to the point of shutting it down completely (for his own peace of mind or any other reason) he might as well sell it to someone else or convert it to a 70cm DMR ham repeater so he can control access.

[BoxCar]

The thing that would infuriate the complainer even more would have been to stop responding by turning your receiver off. The point would have been made, "I'm not listening to you rant about something I have no control over." It puts the adage "never argue with an idiot as they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" to the forefront.

[ABTOCMEPTb]

1 hour ago, marcspaz said:

It's personal property.  We don't owe anyone anything.  I think stopping someone from verbally abusing you and threatening you by removing their access to your personal property sounds smart, not immature.  

Too many people seem to overlook the point that this is personal property and the owner has all the rights and privileges that go with that honor.

  

 

 

As I understood he pulled the plug not because of rough operator, but because someone dared to complain about it. On a grand scale: if no one using his repeater - it wasn't a big deal to begin with. If people depending on his repeater for signal - I would consider this repeater as unreliable.

[marcspaz]

I am curious @WRKC935, if this was a one time thing or has there been some BS and this was the proverbial straw?

[Lscott]

2 hours ago, BoxCar said:

It puts the adage "never argue with an idiot as they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" to the forefront.

Never get down in the mud to wrestle with a pig. The pig like it’s.

[axorlov]

4 hours ago, ABTOCMEPTb said:

As I understood he pulled the plug not because of rough operator, but because someone dared to complain about it. On a grand scale: if no one using his repeater - it wasn't a big deal to begin with. If people depending on his repeater for signal - I would consider this repeater as unreliable.

He pulled the plug because he felt like it. Feel free to step in with your resources to fill the void. Keep it reliable.

[WRKC935]

9 hours ago, ABTOCMEPTb said:

As I understood he pulled the plug not because of rough operator, but because someone dared to complain about it. On a grand scale: if no one using his repeater - it wasn't a big deal to begin with. If people depending on his repeater for signal - I would consider this repeater as unreliable.

Not exactly.... It wasn't that he was complaining, it was that he REALLY got indignant when I blew it off and DIDN'T at first act like it was some huge deal and react accordingly.  And It's my understanding that the group or whatever he is with was about to put up a repeater.  Went and had a discussion with the property owner, and had everything sealed up.  Then somewhere in the discussion the property owner dropped an F-bomb and they immediately decided they were NOT going to do anything there because he used a bad word.  Now I am getting that third hand.  But this dude was on a tear about the guy up north being drunk on the repeater and really felt I needed to do something about it.  And since at first I wasn't, he seemed to get irritated with me because it came out of my repeater.  He understood that it was a linked system and the guy getting wild was three states away.  He didn't care.... I needed to react.  So I did.... Scorched Earth.  Which was WAY over reacting.  But I was mad.  I am ok with someone disagreeing with me.  I am ok with him being offended by cussing drunks.... What I was actually mad at we HE decided I was wrong for not being really mad and offended that some guy in Wisconsin was drunk on a linked repeater system I have a node on.  And when I told him I heard part of it, earlier in the evening, he was really indignant.  I am good with someone having a different belief structure than I do.   What I am NOT ok with is when they try to force their belief structure on me.  Which is basically what happened here.  I SHOULD have ask him if he got the guys call sign and then told him to contact the FCC about THAT guy.  But I sometimes over react a bit. And pulled the plug out of pure irritation over his nonsense.

 

On a side note.  The repeaters are BOTH back on the air.  Now, if I hear him on my repeaters again, I may well tell him he's not welcome to use them any more.... But I may not even bother with that. 

And regardless of how technically reliable a system is.  If it's not YOUR system you shouldn't 100% rely on it.  Because someone can decide to pull the plug. 

 

[WRKC935]

9 hours ago, marcspaz said:

I am curious @WRKC935, if this was a one time thing or has there been some BS and this was the proverbial straw?

It was a culmination of several 'complaints' I have had over time from him and others.  And was at the end of a rather rough day to boot. 

I over reacted.  Pure and simple.  And I have put everything back on the air, and not loaded it up to be sold at the Hamfest this weekend. 

I do have a BUNCH of stuff to go over there... but that ain't part of it.  Which reminds me I DO need to pull a couple other repeaters that are VHF to drag over there and turn into cash..... There are no available VHF ham pairs in my area, so I am gonna dump the VHF repeaters I have since I can't use them.