New CB. First Impressions

[Davichko5650]

2 hours ago, marcspaz said:

 

Actually, FM is allow almost everywhere phone/voice is allowed on the HF bands.  The only modulation restrictions I have ever found in the rules are on 60m where you must us USB for phone, and on 10m tech segment (28.3-28.5) and only if you have a tech license.  Then, you have to use AM or sideband.

The only other restrictions I found specifically for HF voice is that the total bandwidth of a sideband emission with a B designation or a multiplexed image and phone emission cannot exceed the communications quality A3E emission.  Which is kinda of stupid, but whatever.

I'm a bit rusty on the FM side of things, having studied it last circa 1978 (not counting whatever studying done on the Amateur Radio side of things), but I thought the limiting factor for FM below 28 MHz was based on the Modulation Index. For the most part, the band allocations below 28 aren't wide enough???

 

[marcspaz]

3 hours ago, Davichko5650 said:

I'm a bit rusty on the FM side of things, having studied it last circa 1978 (not counting whatever studying done on the Amateur Radio side of things), but I thought the limiting factor for FM below 28 MHz was based on the Modulation Index. For the most part, the band allocations below 28 aren't wide enough???

 

With limited exception, there are almost no rules on bandwidth on HF. The bandwidth limitations are typically defined by the modulation type authorized. Most of the HF radios that I've seen that transmit FM only occupy 1.8 kilohertz of bandwidth. Which is well below the common bandwidth of 3 kilohertz used for single sideband, and it works great. I personally have used FM as low as 3.85 MHz and spoke to people as far as 300 miles away without issue.

[nokones]

I would like to see the 11M flourish again, especially the FM modulation side of 11M. I think it can if the FCC would allow 11M enthusiasts increase the output power in order to increase the effective range to something reasonable.

I don't think the use of repeaters would be in the best interest at this point. I also think that the use of CTCSS/DPL kinda defeats the purpose of sharing the use of the band.  Channel protection would just create too many private conversations and cause a lot of co-channel use contention problems. The channel should be shared as it is today.

If the FCC amends the GMRS license to authorize the use of 50 watts of FM modulation on 11M, I believe this would be a great start in getting more use on the 11M band. The existing rule not requiring a license for using 4 watts or less could remain as is today.

[UncleYoda]

3 hours ago, nokones said:

If the FCC amends the GMRS license to authorize the use of 50 watts of FM modulation on 11M, I believe this would be a great start in getting more use on the 11M band. The existing rule not requiring a license for using 4 watts or less could remain as is today.

Such a half-assed merging of CB and GMRS seems crazy to me.   How would one tell who is a GMRS user?  You want some to be required to use call signs and others not?  Since a listener can't always tell who is using high power it would be a free-for-all for everyone to use 50 watts if they have it.  It would be a regulatory disaster, kind of like their past mistake of putting FRS and GMRS together on shared frequencies.

[SteveShannon]

Is CB underutilized?

[WRQC527]

3 hours ago, UncleYoda said:

Such a half-assed merging of CB and GMRS seems crazy to me.   How would one tell who is a GMRS user?  You want some to be required to use call signs and others not?  Since a listener can't always tell who is using high power it would be a free-for-all for everyone to use 50 watts if they have it.  It would be a regulatory disaster, kind of like their past mistake of putting FRS and GMRS together on shared frequencies.

None of what he suggested is ever going to happen, so it's not worth getting your knickers in a twist.

[nokones]

5 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

Is CB underutilized?

It sure is. I travel all over to my racing events throughout the country. The mid-west appears to be a little more active but not to a large degree. The Southwest and the west coast states are essentially dead except around some of the larger truck stop operations and an occasional traffic collision event. In California, CB traffic is essentially dead everywhere except the two Truck Stops in Ontario where the most of that traffic is advertising for free conversations and other things in the two parking lots.

Also, you don't see to many trucks or even the cars these days with any sign of a CB radio antenna. Occasionally, a driver will try to give a shout-out to another driver and there is usually never a response back.

So, I would have to say it is underutilized big time, at least on the trucker channels.

Maybe another suggestion is allow 12 watts on FM like they do SSB. 

There needs to be a change to help promote the use of the 11M band.

And if you want to give negative comments that is your prerogative but why not try be somewhat a little more positive and offer some suggestions that would help promote more usage of this part of the spectrum. The various parts of the spectrum does have its good and bad points but there is no reason to let any part of the spectrum go underutilized when there are options to make more attractive to use.

I saw that someone posted a comment, maybe it was on Radio Reference, saying that CB radio was never intended to be for hobby use and that is what GMRS is intended for. We'll, guess what, GMRS was never intended for hobby use either. At least by rule, the two radio services have almost identical permissable and prohibited uses and neither services state it is for hobby use.

[SteveShannon]

17 minutes ago, nokones said:

And if you want to give negative comments that is your prerogative but why not try be somewhat a little more positive and offer some suggestions that would help promote more usage of this part of the spectrum.

I don’t see how my question strikes you as a negative comment. I was just surprised to hear you suggest 11 meters needed more users when many users of GMRS are upset about congestion. 

[nokones]

5 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

I don’t see how my question strikes you as a negative comment. I was just surprised to hear you suggest 11 meters needed more users when many users of GMRS are upset about congestion. 

Personally, I don't think that GMRS freqs are congested. Yes, there seems to be a lot of FRS type traffic on the GMRS simplex channels but those users don't seem to prevent other users doing the same thing in their small area footprint of use and then you have the repeater traffic. Just because a person can't immediately key up and use the repeater and has to wait is usually impatient anyways doesn't mean the channel is congested its just in use. Most GMRS users don't understand what channel loading means. 

[WRQC527]

7 hours ago, SteveShannon said:

Is CB underutilized?

The fact that there are so many new CB radios out now (some of them not cheap, either) leads me to believe there is a big CB market. Companies like President, and a lot of the cheaper CCR-type manufacturers, are coming out with all manner of new radios, including handhelds, thanks in part to the addition of FM. I don't think they would be putting that much R&D and production effort into CB radios if the market was fading. Someone's buying them. 

[LeoG]

If you build it they will come.

 

If there are no FM CBs there is no ability to talk on the system for the normies.  So the businesses take a risk in producing the radios to see if they will be bought.

[nokones]

25 minutes ago, LeoG said:

If you build it they will come.

 

If there are no FM CBs there is no ability to talk on the system for the normies.  So the businesses take a risk in producing the radios to see if they will be bought.

I own two FM CB radios and someday I hope to find other FM CB Radio users. Right now all I can do is talk to myself.

[LeoG]

Playing radio by yourself isn't fun.  LOL

[BoxCar]

15 hours ago, LeoG said:

Playing radio by yourself isn't fun.  LOL

But at least the conversation is semi-intelligent.

[Lscott]

4 hours ago, BoxCar said:

But at least the conversation is semi-intelligent.

The little voice in the head that answers back might disagree.

[AdmiralCochrane]

I only hear GMRS congestion complaints regarding repeaters overlapping.  Maybe FCC should have set a higher bar for GMRS repeaters, but that genie has long since been released from its bottle - the tooth paste ain't goin' back in the tube.

[Davichko5650]

On 7/26/2024 at 4:39 PM, marcspaz said:

With limited exception, there are almost no rules on bandwidth on HF. The bandwidth limitations are typically defined by the modulation type authorized. Most of the HF radios that I've seen that transmit FM only occupy 1.8 kilohertz of bandwidth. Which is well below the common bandwidth of 3 kilohertz used for single sideband, and it works great. I personally have used FM as low as 3.85 MHz and spoke to people as far as 300 miles away without issue.

Again, not a bandwidth issue. Pt 97 says an angle modulated signal (fm or phase mod) cannot exceed a modulation index of 1. 1.8 khz at 3.85 Mhz has an MD of 1.465 according to the formula I've used in the past. Unless my slide rule is sticky?  This is the reason for the amateur bands that FM is not  very useable below 28 MHz. It can be done, but it takes a lot of fiddling with your gear to get that 1 or less MD.

Spelled out way down in 47 CFR 97.307 (f) (1)

[marcspaz]

3 hours ago, Davichko5650 said:

Again, not a bandwidth issue. Pt 97 says an angle modulated signal (fm or phase mod) cannot exceed a modulation index of 1. 1.8 khz at 3.85 Mhz has an MD of 1.465 according to the formula I've used in the past. Unless my slide rule is sticky?  This is the reason for the amateur bands that FM is not  very useable below 28 MHz. It can be done, but it takes a lot of fiddling with your gear to get that 1 or less MD.

Spelled out way down in 47 CFR 97.307 (f) (1)

 

Not sure what to say.  I just use the radio.  Every HF radio I have every owned, ranging in age from manufactured in the late 80's to still being made today, all have FM on every band from 160MHz to 30MHz.  It has not been possible to make any adjustments to it... it just is what it is.  In my entire life, I have never ever heard of anyone get a no-no letter from the FCC or even complaints from other operators. 

 

I looked at my logs a few minutes ago.  I personally have made over 1,000 contacts in the last 20+ years between 14 MHz and 3.8 MHz, all around the US in in over 30 countries.  It's being done and it works.  No fiddling is even possible. 

[Davichko5650]

42 minutes ago, marcspaz said:

 

Not sure what to say.  I just use the radio.  Every HF radio I have every owned, ranging in age from manufactured in the late 80's to still being made today, all have FM on every band from 160MHz to 30MHz.  It has not been possible to make any adjustments to it... it just is what it is.  In my entire life, I have never ever heard of anyone get a no-no letter from the FCC or even complaints from other operators. 

 

I looked at my logs a few minutes ago.  I personally have made over 1,000 contacts in the last 20+ years between 14 MHz and 3.8 MHz, all around the US in in over 30 countries.  It's being done and it works.  No fiddling is even possible. 

Well as QOATIG will point out - or did, as have a few others on YooToob, the big money in enforcement is in Pirate Radio and Telephones.  I'd think FM on the low bands is something they'd have to get complaints about before any action on their part. and that action would probably just be a "knock it off" kinda letter. I can't see them bothering.  Based on that video with the FCC Enforcements folks at the chinese restaurant, I imagine  their response would be, similar to what the one FCC engineer told a person in the audience who complained about 7.200 - "turn the big knob."

Only done FM on 10, but yes my FT-450D could do it from  do it from  1.8 - 54 MHz, but I've got too many other modes I'm using at the moment to delve into that much.

[Davichko5650]

On 7/27/2024 at 2:40 PM, SteveShannon said:

Is CB underutilized?

Pretty active around these parts. Lots of stations on the upper channels, mostly LSB, but there's some FM happening as well.  I'm close enough to a freeway, so I can get something on 19 most any time up to the wee hours when it'll die off.

But there's also a number of locals running on 27.535 just above 40 also on LSB that I can listen in one most evenings.  Have an old friend from my previous employer who is a freebander up there on 555. Not once have I bothered with the "you know that's against the FCC regulations" speech. Not my job!