Amature bands VS. GMRS Range

[HHD1]

Here is what I assume is a no brainer question for some. 

Given all things the same as far as terrain, radio, wattage, etc...

Which would have more range in simplex, specifically HT comms, amateur bands or GMRS?  

The google machine is not giving me clear answers, plus I like bugging you fine people with my curiosities. 

[SteveShannon]

18 minutes ago, HHD1 said:

Here is what I assume is a no brainer question for some. 

Given all things the same as far as terrain, radio, wattage, etc...

Which would have more range in simplex, specifically HT comms, amateur bands or GMRS?  

The google machine is not giving me clear answers, plus I like bugging you fine people with my curiosities. 

High Frequency (HF) amateur bands have the greatest range, but propagation can vary.  Yesterday I was easily able to talk to a ham many hundreds of miles away (Butte, MT to Chelan, WA), but at the same time I could not hear a ham who was thirty miles away in Anaconda, MT because our signals were passing over each other’s heads. 
GMRS has no range advantage over amateur UHF.  Neither does amateur UHF have a range advantage over GMRS.  Their ranges are practically identical. But, there are many times more amateur repeaters than there are GMRS repeaters and unlike GMRS the amateur repeaters may be linked together in networks. On Saturday I used my 70 cm handheld and talked to a repeater 30-40 miles away which was linked to a worldwide net at the time.

[dosw]

Amateur radio spans almost the entirety of the RF spectrum, and LW, MW, and HF propagation are vastly different from VHF, UHF, and other much higher frequency band propagation.

 

GMRS uses 65cm, which is very close to amateur 70cm. For those, propagation will be virtually identical; UHF 70cm and UHF 65cm GMRS will be identical.

 

GMRS doesn't extend into VHF. Amateur radio has bands in 2m and 6m that can be described as VHF. VHF requires bigger antennas than UHF for similar gain characteristics. VHF suffers less from attenuation by foliage. But UHF is a little better at getting through walls. Both are "line of sight."

 

Amateur offers 10m (a lot like CB propagation -- pretty long range during periods of high sunspot activity, line of sight at other times).

Amateur offers 20m, 40m, 80m, 160m. These are the bands people use to talk all over the world, but they're subject to seasonal changes, day/night changes, sunspot activity, and so on. They achieve these long distances by bouncing the radio waves off the ionosphere -- layers in our atmosphere. Requires knowledge and good technique for knowing when to use which band. Very large antennas are common, and high power levels. Not entirely reliable.

 

You're probably asking about 2m/70cm amateur vs GMRS. And again, there, 70cm vs GMRS there's no practical propagation difference. 2m vs GMRS there can be some advantages to 2m if you have comparable gain antennas, which will be bigger. But the advantages are subtle.

 

The fine print: I skipped over the following amateur bands: 1.25m, which is less used, but close in propagation to 2m. I skipped 900MHz and GHz bands because they're uncommon for simplex over any distance. And I skipped LW/MW, as well as 17m, 15m, and 12m amateur. 17,15,12 are going to share characteristics of 10m and 20m, but are less common bands. LW and MW require much larger equipment and are relatively niche bands. 160m is pretty close to MW though. I also skipped over MURS, because its power requirements are more limited, despite propagation being similar to 2m. 30m is useful in the same way that 20 and 40m are useful, but less common. And 60m is relatively niche. I skipped CB because at 11m, its propagation is similar to 10m, but it's a dumpster fire of crazy traffic. However, people do use CB. It's limited to 4w for AM transmissions, and 12w for SSB transmissions.

[Socalgmrs]

36 minutes ago, HHD1 said:

Here is what I assume is a no brainer question for some. 

Given all things the same as far as terrain, radio, wattage, etc...

Which would have more range in simplex, specifically HT comms, amateur bands or GMRS?  

The google machine is not giving me clear answers, plus I like bugging you fine people with my curiosities. 

Simplex Or transmitting into a repeater is exactly the same.   Some research into bands and vhf and uhf is in order however lower frequencies like the 150s where murs is goes further if all other things are equal.  I know a 2w Murs HT goes about 2Xs as far as a 5w gmrs HT. 

[WRYZ926]

Yes one can use an amplifier on 2m and 70cm. But comparing apples to apples by using a 50 watt 2m/70cm mobile to using a MGRS 50 watt mobile, then there will not be any difference in the range with 70cm and GMRS.

[marcspaz]

11 hours ago, HHD1 said:

Which would have more range in simplex, specifically HT comms, amateur bands or GMRS?  

 

Just putting my two cents in, and reiterating what others have said... in the world of handhelds, GMRS and Amateur Radio UHF perform the same since they are in the same band and general frequency space.  Again, specifically with handhelds, the lower in frequency you go (VHF and HF for example) the worse the performance will be as the antenna becomes less and less efficient.  This is because the lower in frequency you go, the longer the radio wave length will be and the longer the antenna needs to be.

 

Now, if you were to take an HF handheld and hook it up to a standalone antenna system that is the proper size, then you can literally talk around the world.  The drawback is, the handheld is really no longer 'portable' for all intents and purposes.

[Bogieboy01]

Ameteur bands typically, due to the ionosphere being able to propogate the longer wavelength bands better than the UHF frequencies....with the right antennas and equipment you can communicate around the world on 5w with the 11m band....

 

*edit* can you tell i am studying to get a ham license?

[CaptainSarcastic]

There are amateur only frequencies at the UHF range (not just HF). That frequency range is 420mhz - 450mhz. It's also referred to as the 70cm band. It seems to have very similar characteristics to the GMRS band as far as propogation, etc.

[tweiss3]

As others have said, ham UHF vs GMRS, you won't notice a difference with HTs. VHF high (2m) will get a bit further under normal conditions. VHF low (6m, 50MHz) gets to the point that an adequate antenna is the issue for HTs. It will act the same as 2m without atmospheric propagation helping, but when propagation is open, there are thousands of stories of talking across the USA on only 5w.

[FishinGary]

HTs on the amateur bands are basically limited to VHF (6m, 2m, 1.25m) and UHF (70cm), so not really any different than GMRS (UHF). Mode (FM) and power levels are basically the same as well. It basically comes down to the things you already mentioned, like terrain, as well as antennas, availability of repeaters, etc. In my area there are a handful of GMRS repeaters, but there is at least one ham repeater in almost every city in my county alone. YMMV

[FishinGary]

8 minutes ago, SteveShannon said:

High Frequency (HF) amateur bands have the greatest range, but propagation can vary.  Yesterday I was easily able to talk to a ham many hundreds of miles away (Butte, MT to Chelan, WA), but at the same time I could not hear a ham who was thirty miles away in Anaconda, MT because our signals were passing over each other’s heads. 
GMRS has no range advantage over amateur UHF.  Neither does amateur UHF have a range advantage over GMRS.  Their ranges are practically identical. But, there are many times more amateur repeaters than there are GMRS repeaters and unlike GMRS the amateur repeaters may be linked together in networks. On Saturday I used my 70 cm handheld and talked to a repeater 30-40 miles away which was linked to a worldwide net at the time.

Skywave propagation is a trip. Just messing around with WSPR, the sweet spot for me, in terms of signal strength is roughly between 800-1500km. Anything farther away gets weaker with distance, anything closer just passes right overhead. Of course, there are tons of variables here, and I'm working QRP, too. 

[WRYZ926]

We have our 70cm repeater antennas and GMRS repeater antennas on the same tower. The 70cm antennas are higher but the actual range is the same for both GMRS and 70CM. We get between a 30-35 mile coverage radius with the usual dead spots due to local terrain.

Our 2m repeater antennas are at the same height as our 70cm antennas and we get a 80-85 mile coverage radius with it.

Those ranges are all with using 50 watt mobile radios and good mobile antennas with the proper ground plane. 

 

And before "some people" state how they get 200 + miles with their GMRS radios, they live in the most perfect ideal location across wide open and flat desert terrain. Real world range will be anywhere from 15 miles to 50 miles depending on what part of the country you lie in and what the local terrain is like.

[tcp2525]

The most import factor that is being overlooked is you get the run 1,500 watts, even on 70cm. Plus, there are a lot more high gain directional antennas for 70cm than GMRS. Obviously, there are limiting factors such as terrain and other obstacles that will cut back performance. Just get good coax and a decent antenna and enjoy either service.

[AdmiralCochrane]

3 hours ago, WRYZ926 said:

Real world range will be anywhere from 15 miles to 50 miles depending on what part of the country you lie in and what the local terrain is like.

I have never made a 65cm, 70cm, 1.25m or 2m simplex contact more than 13 miles. All of my 5-13 mile contacts were with 50 watts.

[WRYZ926]

15 minutes ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

I have never made a 65cm, 70cm, 1.25m or 2m simplex contact more than 13 miles. All of my 5-13 mile contacts were with 50 watts.

Again it is going to depend on your location, terrain, amount of trees and buildings, etc.

More realistic simplex range for 70cm and GMRS is going to be 2-10 miles, again depending on your surrounding and location. We have guys check into our weekly 2m simplex net from as far away as 55 miles straight line. They definitely are using beam antennas up high on towers and there is a good chance they are also running amplifiers too.

I know we do have guys that check into the 2m simplex net that are 40-45 miles away and they are not using any type of amplifier and they are using vertical antennas. Again location and height of the antenna plays a key part on how far one can be heard.

My dual band antenna is a GP-9 with the base at 22 feet above the ground.

The farthest I have talked to anyone on 70cm or GMRS using my 50 watt mobile radio on a simplex channel/frequency to another using a base station with a vertical antenna at least 30 feet above ground has been about 25 miles. But that is pushing it. I use a short Comet SBB-1 NMO dual band antenna and a short Tram 1174 antenna tuned for GMRS on my Ford Escape.

Now talking to someone 18-22 miles from my base radios to their base radios is normally not a problem when using 70cm and GMRS. 

There are a lot of variables on how far you can get out using VHF/UHF such as type of antenna, antenna height, your location and local terrain, etc.

To answer the original question, you won't get out any farther using the 70cm amateur band compared to using GMRS when the radios and antenna setups are the same as far as power output and antenna height.

[OffRoaderX]

6 hours ago, HHD1 said:

Which would have more range in simplex, specifically HT comms, amateur bands or GMRS? 

if your HT can't get 200 miles right out of the box it should go directly into the garbage can.

Source: Rheet-hard

[WRYZ926]

4 hours ago, OffRoaderX said:

if your HT can't get 200 miles right out of the box it should go directly into the garbage can.

Source: Rheet-hard

Don't forget that he has 1998 reasons why Midland and Wouxun radios are total junk. Or are we up to 4995 reasons now.

[Jaay]

2 hours ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

I have never made a 65cm, 70cm, 1.25m or 2m simplex contact more than 13 miles. All of my 5-13 mile contacts were with 50 watts.

Your Antenna and Elevation makes all the difference in the world. 50 to 100 mile range on 50 watts is Easily accomplished on both 2m and 70 cm with a properly tuned antenna ! I do it all the time .

[tcp2525]

2 hours ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

I have never made a 65cm, 70cm, 1.25m or 2m simplex contact more than 13 miles. All of my 5-13 mile contacts were with 50 watts.

That's hard to believe. With all the ducting on 2m I am able to get into New England from Maryland with 50w using SSB..

[AdmiralCochrane]

I believe the original question was in regards to HT operation.  50w 2m SSB is way off from HT operation.

 

Yes, I have hit a repeater on Long Island from southern Bowie when 2m ducting was present.

[HHD1]

1 minute ago, marcspaz said:

 

Just putting my two cents in, and reiterating what others have said... in the world of handhelds, GMRS and Amateur Radio perform the same since they are in the same band.  Again, specifically with handhelds, the lower in frequency you go the worse the performance will be as the antenna becomes less and less efficient.  This is because the lower in frequency you go, the longer the radio wave length will be and the longer the antenna needs to be.

 

Now, if you were to take an HF handheld and hook it up to a standalone antenna system that is the proper size, then you can literally talk around the world.  The drawback is, the handheld is really no longer 'portable' for all intents and purposes.

Thank you.  That is the best answer I've seen so far.  Not that I didn't enjoy any of the other's... .   I knew I came to the right place. 

[WRXB215]

1 hour ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

I believe the original question was in regards to HT operation.

True. And throughout amateur radio history there has been very few HF HTs ever made.

[WSEZ864]

11 hours ago, marcspaz said:

...Now, if you were to take an HF handheld and hook it up to a standalone antenna system that is the proper size, then you can literally talk around the world.  The drawback is, the handheld is really no longer 'portable' for all intents and purposes.

Exactly.

When I lived in VA near Lake Anna/Louisa, I was on a hilltop surrounded with tall trees. I hung a 2m ground plane up in the top of one of the trees, 70' AGL. I normally used this with my 50 watt house-bound mobile and had great range in all directions. The Bluemont 2m repeater is on Mt Weather, VA and about 75 miles from my former residence. They often commented on the nets that I was their furthest check-in. Hitting the repeater with the 50 watt unit was a given, and I once hooked my 5 watt VX7r HT to that antenna and was able to talk to Bluemont with it.

[amaff]

nevermind

[nokones]

I live approx. 25 miles northwest of Phoenix in "Old People Country" a.k.a. "Limber Dick Acres" where every time your hear a siren there is going to be a future Golf Car For Sale on the near corner and an Estate Sale, which is near a gazillion Jeep trails, and I am able to hit an analog wideband GMRS repeater approx. 80 air miles away that is southeast of Phoenix with a 40 watt XPR5550e on an analog narrowband channel using a Laird Phantom on my 23 Wrangler "IZARUBICON" 2 Dr. that is mounted on the hood just in front of the A Pillar/windshield.  The radio does not have the wideband entitlement so I am regulated to just narrowband emissions for that radio which is not my primary GMRS and UHF radio. The radio is my primary DMR and Digital Channel radio. My primary GMRS and UHF radio is my XTL5000 Remote Mount. 

Also, I have a XTL2500 VHF remote mount with the base load 2 db omni antenna on a bracket on the side of the hood near the cowl/A Pillar and I am able to hit a low-level repeater on a four-story building approx 40 air miles away looking around the side of South Mountain.

It appears that I fail way short for qualifying for the 200 mile club. I guess, I have more work cut out for me to make that happen and so I can hang with and shoot UHF skip for 200 miles away to anonymous "some people". Umm, maybe I don't.

[OffRoaderX]

2 minutes ago, nokones said:

approx. 25 miles northwest of Phoenix in "Old People Country" a.k.a. "Limber Dick Acres" where every time your hear a siren there is going to be a future Golf Car For Sale on the near corner and an Estate Sale, which is near a gazillion Jeep trails

This sounds like a beautiful and glorious land of milk and honey!   Literally where we have been house-shopping & planning for when we make our escape from my current State.