50 watts simplex. I'm confused.

[jbarr]

I posted elsewhere that I'd like to establish communication between two houses 7 miles apart, separated by lots of hills and forest. The consensus in the comments was that, based on the terrain, two GMRS mobiles 40-50 watts each, with decent external antennas should do the trick.

I'm looking to purchase two Wouxun kg-1000g radios but if I'm reading the channel plan correctly, you can only transmit 50 watts on the Repeater channels. Is this correct? But these use offsets and are not simplex. If this correct?

We want to transmit 50 watts simplex. What GMRS channels can we legally use? 

And can the Wouxun kg-1000g transmit 50 watts simplex on legal channels?

Thanks for helping out a noob!

Jim Barr

wrnq679 / n9onl

[MacJack]

Jim, maybe the attached will help.  Look on top right for GMRS then go down and you will see the simplex and repeater...  To play it safe, contact buytwowayradio.com to confirm...

MacJack

[jbarr]

I'll check with them. Thanks!

Seems like they're are 3 issues:

1. I understand the impact of interface, so we would be prudent and ensure that whatever channel we settle on doesn't interfere, specifically with repeaters.

2. Is it legal to transmit simplex on channels 15-22? (These are repeater input channels, correct?

3. Will the Wouxun kg-1000g transmit simplex on channels 15-22? (And checking with buytwowayradio.com should answer that.)

Jim Barr

wrnq679 / n9onl

[MichaelLAX]

Two Yagi antennas pointed at each other will maximum your communications and minimize interference to others, esp at 50 watts on the repeater output channels: 462.550 etc. 
 

the prevailing view is that the repeater input channels, 467.550 etc., are only to be used for input to a repeater

but perhaps there are virtual repeaters at each location?!? 
 

all efforts must be taken to research your area and be sure you are not causing interference to any local repeaters

[AdmiralCochrane]

As long as you are not transmitting on the 467.000 repeater input part of the band you are not interfering with a repeater.   Its not a prevailing opinion, its an FCC reg. 

 

The 50 watt simplex frequencies are the same as the repeater output frequencies, they are shared.

 

7 miles would be possible with well elevated antennas.  A directional antenna isn't that much help in the GMRS frequency band if there are obstructions.

Height is might.

 

I have made 11 mile VHF simplex contacts with my Anytone 50 watt VHF mobile, UHF/GMRS is harder without pure line of sight.

[MichaelLAX]

32 minutes ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

As long as you are not transmitting on the 467.000 repeater input part of the band you are not interfering with a repeater.   Its not a prevailing opinion, its an FCC reg. 

The 50 watt simplex frequencies are the same as the repeater output frequencies, they are shared.

I’m afraid I have to disagree with your statement:

Transmitting 50 watts simplex on a repeater output frequency can easily cause interference to a nearby repeater outputting on that frequency.

Even though they are “shared” frequencies, it is a problem that can easily be avoided with research. 

[axorlov]

As stated by others, 462.xxx0 frequencies are 50W frequencies, shared by simplex users and repeater outputs. These channels can be used in wide band, if your radio allows it, or narrow band configuration. Wide band may give you tiny bit of edge over narrow band. Mind Line A restrictions (462.6500, 462.7000), if you are close to Canadian border.

Good operating practice should be used, i.e. monitoring channel for a second-two with tone squelch off and avoiding stepping on somebody having conversation. Scanning these 8 frequencies for a couple of days will show if you already have busy repeater(s) and allow you to chose less busy channel for your own communications. Good communication plan should also include reserve frequencies in case of interference or/and busy channel.

[mbrun]

I posted elsewhere that I'd like to establish communication between two houses 7 miles apart, separated by lots of hills and forest. The consensus in the comments was that, based on the terrain, two GMRS mobiles 40-50 watts each, with decent external antennas should do the trick.
I'm looking to purchase two Wouxun kg-1000g radios but if I'm reading the channel plan correctly, you can only transmit 50 watts on the Repeater channels. Is this correct? But these use offsets and are not simplex. If this correct?
We want to transmit 50 watts simplex. What GMRS channels can we legally use? 
And can the Wouxun kg-1000g transmit 50 watts simplex on legal channels?
Thanks for helping out a noob!
Jim Barr
wrnq679 / n9onl

Welcome to myGMRS.

First, seven miles distance is very doable, even at low power, if the antennas of both stations are sufficiently elevated and minimum obstructions between them. Every single obstruction between the antenna degrades. In my location, semi-rural SE Cincinnati, 60% Trees, mostly-level to mildly rolling terrain, I can just reach my mobile from the home when home antenna is at 56’ AGL. You YMMV because of obstacles in your area.

There are four blocks of frequencies in GMRS as you can see in mack jack’s post. (7) 1/2W simplex, (7) 5W simplex, (8) 50W dual purpose repeater/simplex and (8) 50w repeater only input frequencies. The two groups of 8 are referred to as the GMRS “Main” frequencies in the FCC regs.

When and if you really need high-power simplex communication, you use the main frequencies in the 462.xxxx range. You can use any of those frequencies. In my case, my home simplex channel is 462.6500 (19). I use that one because there is not a high-profile active repeater in the area that is using it. And if one showed up, I could merely move to a less active frequency. I have 14 others to choose from.

I run 5w normally on simplex for normal comms. Seldom do I need or benefit from more. But I do kick it up to high-power when needed.

BTW, I am using a KG-1000G in the home, a Comet 712EFC GMRS antenna, real LMR400 coax and a heavy-duty 46’ push-up fiberglass antenna mast attached to the house. Multiple pictures of it on this forum.

Rest easy my friend. Yes, you can operate at 50watts simplex on GMRS if you really do need the power.

Regards,


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[djxs]

13 hours ago, jbarr said:

2. Is it legal to transmit simplex on channels 15-22? (These are repeater input channels, correct?

My understanding is that repeater channels are to be used only as a repeater and not for simplex. However, I am not positive. Is there not an option on some GMRS radios that allow (by push of a button) to enable some kind of talk around feature or something to the like? 

[gortex2]

talk around is the repeater output ie: 452.550 etc

The 467 channels should only be used to talk to a repeater and not on simplex.

 

[MozartMan]

29 minutes ago, djxs said:

Is there not an option on some GMRS radios that allow (by push of a button) to enable some kind of talk around feature or something to the like? 

Quote

The KG-905G supports Talk Around. If you're on a repeater channel, talkaround essentially provides an additional PTT button that bypasses the repeater, transmitting on the same frequency on which you would receive.

https://www.buytwowayradios.com/blog/2021/02/announcing-the-wouxun-kg-905g-gmrs-two-way-radio.html

[mbrun]

If you purchase a non-repeater-capable Part 95e transceiver it will come with (22) simplex frequencies you can use. These include:
- (7) 462.xxxx interstitial frequencies. (Ch 1-7)
- (7) 467.xxxx interstitial frequencies. (Ch 8-14)
- (8) 462.xxxx main frequencies. (Ch 15-22)

All 22 of these are 100% shared with our license-free FRS simplex only siblings. The (8) 462.xxxxx main frequencies however are also the exact same ones authorized for use as repeater outputs.

If you purchase a repeater-capable part 95e HT transceiver your radio will likely come factory programmed with the aforementioned frequencies pre-programmed as channels 1-22. The radio will likely also come factory programmed with 8 repeater pairs, pre-programmed as channels 23-30.

Channel 15 and 23 allow you to listen to exactly the same frequency. However, press PTT on channel 15 and you will be transmitting on 462.5500. Press PTT on channel 23 and you will be transmitting on 467.5500 (one of the 467.xxxx main channels). Channel pairs 16/24, 17/25, 18/26, 19/27, 20/28, 21/29, 22/30 are similar.

The core difference between a simplex-only and a repeater-capable GMRS transceiver is that the repeater-capable one is capable of and permitted to use (8) additional frequencies, the 467.xxxx main channels, to support use of two different frequencies per channel for communication through a repeater. One for Tx, One for Rx.

Bottom line, by design and by rule, the 462.xxxx main channels are the holy-grail of GMRS. They are the frequencies which are allowed to be used with the most power. They are also the frequencies which may be used for radios operating in simplex or duplex (repeater) modes.

A review of article “§ 95.1763 GMRS channels” hopefully provides adequate clarification over the permitted use of our treasured frequencies.

Hope this helps.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[AdmiralCochrane]

On 8/12/2021 at 9:54 PM, MichaelLAX said:

I’m afraid I have to disagree with your statement:

Transmitting 50 watts simplex on a repeater output frequency can easily cause interference to a nearby repeater outputting on that frequency.

Even though they are “shared” frequencies, it is a problem that can easily be avoided with research. 

Interference would only come if one transmitted on a busy frequency.  Using normal decorum and listening before transmitting to be sure the frequency is not in use is all one must do to avoid "problems" 

[MichaelLAX]

4 hours ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

Interference would only come if one transmitted on a busy frequency.  Using normal decorum and listening before transmitting to be sure the frequency is not in use is all one must do to avoid "problems" 

Ah, if life were only that easy!!?

Someone following your "shortcut" to success could easily find a "frequency not in use" and start a long detailed simplex conversation.

THEN Operator A (whose location prevents him from hearing the simplex conversation) activates the local repeater whose output is on the same frequency, potentially causing interference to Operator B (located on the fringe of the repeater coverage area, but close to the simplex operators) listening for Operator A on this repeater.

A simple bit of research (a search for local repeaters even just here on mygmrs.com) could have alerted the simplex operator to a local repeater on the same frequency output and avoided the problem by starting the simplex conversation on another 50 watt channel, not having a local repeater on the same output frequency.

But by all means: use your method, if you choose.

[BoxCar]

7 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

Ah, if life were only that easy!!?

Someone following your "shortcut" to success could easily find a "frequency not in use" and start a long detailed simplex conversation.

THEN Operator A (whose location prevents him from hearing the simplex conversation) activates the local repeater whose output is on the same frequency, potentially causing interference to Operator B (located on the fringe of the repeater coverage area, but close to the simplex operators) listening for Operator A on this repeater.

A simple bit of research (a search for local repeaters even just here on mygmrs.com) could have alerted the simplex operator to a local repeater on the same frequency output and avoided the problem by starting the simplex conversation on another 50 watt channel, not having a local repeater on the same output frequency.

But by all means: use your method, if you choose.

Gee, I'm a little confused here Miichael. When I tune to a repeater I thought my receiver was set to the output of the repeater rather than the repeater input frequency. Is it different in your radio?

[MichaelLAX]

7 hours ago, BoxCar said:

Gee, I'm a little confused here Miichael. When I tune to a repeater I thought my receiver was set to the output of the repeater rather than the repeater input frequency. Is it different in your radio?

No!

A little confused?!?

I count my use of the word "output" 3 times - please quote the exact text in my last message where I use the term: "input."

Quote

Ah, if life were only that easy!!?

Someone following your "shortcut" to success could easily find a "frequency not in use" and start a long detailed simplex conversation.

THEN Operator A (whose location prevents him from hearing the simplex conversation) activates the local repeater whose output is on the same frequency, potentially causing interference to Operator B (located on the fringe of the repeater coverage area, but close to the simplex operators) listening for Operator A on this repeater.

A simple bit of research (a search for local repeaters even just here on mygmrs.com) could have alerted the simplex operator to a local repeater on the same frequency output and avoided the problem by starting the simplex conversation on another 50 watt channel, not having a local repeater on the same output frequency.

But by all means: use your method, if you choose.

Urban Dictionary definition of "troll:" 

"One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument"

And even if I did make a mistake or typo, it would still be trolling to point it out with a passive-aggressive question for which you already know the answer, such as:

"Gee, I am a little confused here: Don't you know that 'Michael' is spelled with only one 'i?'"

[AdmiralCochrane]

BoxCar is exactly correct.   

The 50w 462 frequencies are NOT restricted to repeater use only as Michael fears. 

Michael, that exact situation occurs EVERY DAY and the world does not end.  The frequencies are SHARED between simplex and repeater output, it really is that simple.

[MichaelLAX]

1 hour ago, AdmiralCochrane said:

BoxCar is exactly correct.   

The 50w 462 frequencies are NOT restricted to repeater use only as Michael fears...

You both must be having a slow day:

Have no fear: I never made any statement that the 50w 462 frequencies are restricted to repeater use only.

But keep trying, I am sure you can trigger a dispute with me about something real, if you keep trying! 

[MichaelLAX]

Laugh all you want, but this isn't the first time you have tried to foment dissension...

UNSUCCESSFULLY, I note!

[axorlov]

Urban Dictionary definition of "troll": one who does not own a mirror

[dhardin53]

Some how we always get lost in the weeds.

Every operator is always in a difference saturation.  Some are alwyas looking for the absolute perfect correct answer to every question. The short answer so much of these simple questions are "It all depends".

Say wife and I are boondock camping the the Arizona desert, I go waking the dog and I can not use 462 simplex high power? There is not a repeater within 100 miles. I'm not standing on a mountain top and radio back to my wife the dog has pooped I'm coming back now.  I don't feel i am disturbing anyone repeater.  

Personally in my location there are two repeaters about 50 miles for my house. There are on two differnt frequencies. A small HT and most mobile's will not reach these repeaters. But knowing there are repeaters on said channels is a objective decision one personally has to make. The rules are not alwys so clear, but the exception to the rule is just a valid. 

Be a inform GMRS operator and one should not have issues. Say your new to the area, and you don't know of reapers in the location,  then don't us 462 Simplex. With cell phones and groups like MyGMRS.com it don't take long to get the answers you need to not disturb others with you communications.  Worst case scenario, if you are disturbing someone MOVE to another channel. I feel common sense should be a required for obtain any license.  

[axorlov]

5 hours ago, dhardin53 said:

then don't us 462 Simplex

Bad advice. Absolutely do use 462.xxx0 MHz simplex with all 50W. Simplex users are entitled to use these frequencies. Repeater outputs are too entitled to use these frequencies. Use good operating practices to avoid interference.

Now, simplex on 467.xxx0 MHz is a big "f- you" to the repeater, because these are repeater input frequencies. Operating simplex on repeater input messes up repeater for everybody else who might use it at this moment. This is why simplex on 467.xxx0 MHz is not allowed by FCC (not to be confused with 467.xxx5 MHz).

[MichaelLAX]

2 hours ago, axorlov said:

Now, simplex on 467.xxx0 MHz is a big "f- you" to the repeater, because these are repeater input frequencies.

Here in Los Angeles there are two repeaters on 600 with separate input tones (which I will call Tone A and Tone B ) both with primarily the same coverage area (Mt Wilson and Mt Disappointment).

How is the interference caused by this situation factually and/or practically different than “simplex on 467.600?”

Would this example change, in your opinion, if one user transmitted with Tone A and the other replied with Tone B?

How is this different if both transmitted with no access tones?

How would you even know?

[axorlov]

Repeaters often are mounted high, and they hear far because of that. When Michael using Tone A talks on repeater A, repeater B also hears it, but does not open, since it waits for tone B. If Alex will start talking to repeater B using tone B in the same time, both repeaters A and B will likely produce garbled output, since both are hearing both Michael and Alex and tones A and B. It may happen that Michael is closer to repeater A, and repeater A will "hang" on Michael's signal, or vise versa, but no guarantee. For this to happen Michael must be _much_ closer to repeater A than Alex. If, as you said, coverage is similar, garbled output is much more likely. I'm sure you know all of it, I'm explaining for others who might read it.

Where it's different from simplex on repeater input? Here: both repeaters A and B are on the same output, so if Alex does not have Tone B set for decoding/receiving, he will hear Michael on repeater A, and will not transmit, because Alex adheres to good operation technique and etiquette. If Alex has Tone B set for decoding/receiving, he still will notice "busy frequency" LED and/or will monitor for a second-two, to make sure frequency is clear, because of good operation practices, etc. However, if Michael talking simplex on repeater input (both A and B are on the same input in your example), Alex will have no idea about busy frequency. When Alex talks to repeater B with tone B, repeater suddenly produces garbled output for no apparent reason. Or worse! If Michael is _much_ closer to repeater B than Alex, or uses his high-power transceiver, innocent listeners of the repeater B will be subject to Michael's nonsense!

[axorlov]

Also look from this perspective: when you are talking to your buddy on simplex, both are in simplex range, and hold the frequency only within this range, often short range. When taking simplex to your buddy on the repeater input, you both are still must be close, but you block frequency for much wider range, the reach of the repeater, without any benefit to your conversation whatsoever.