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Show me any legal GMRS radios,there are none.


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#1 WRFS771

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 01:11 PM

There are no legal GMRS radios on the market if they have 22 channels. Why?

Channel 8-14 are dedicated FRS channels and transmit power on those channels is .5 watts.
Only blister packs meet the power with fixed antenna.
But the blister packs are illegal if they transmit on channels above 14

Baofeng radios like the UV5R
And 888s are also illegal to transmit on GMRS
if a GMRS users transmission 8-14 they are breaking the stupid rules because those radios transmit on low at 1 watt and dont have fixed antennas.
The same with all Amateur radio equipment.
The FCC has made mess by keeping FRS.
Too many illegal users
GMRS has the potential to be a great secondary communication network for people that dont have reliable Cell coverage.
The FCC when they approve a cell tower and a cell provider a license, require them to install and maintain a GMRS repeater.

That makes it possible for nation wide radio communications with even a 5 watt radio.

The .5 fixed antenna users can pay a $5 GMRS annual fee. No repeater use
End the FRS frequencies.

#2 wrodina

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 01:54 PM

I'm not sure about your overall point, but this in particular is not correct:

 

Baofeng radios like the UV5R
And 888s are legal to transmit on GMRS

 

GMRS radios are supposed to have certification from the FCC that they are compliant with Part 95 of the rules. To my knowledge, only a couple of the Baofeng models have any sort of type certification.



#3 Lscott

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 01:56 PM

There are no legal GMRS radios on the market if they have 22 channels. Why?

Channel 8-14 are dedicated FRS channels and transmit power on those channels is .5 watts.
Only blister packs meet the power with fixed antenna.
But the blister packs are illegal if they transmit on channels above 14

Baofeng radios like the UV5R
And 888s are legal to transmit on GMRS
But if a GMRS users transmission 8-14 they are breaking the stupid rules because those radios transmit on low at 1 watt and dont have fixed antennas.
The same with all Amateur radio equipment.
The FCC has made mess by keeping FRS.
Too many illegal users
GMRS has the potential to be a great secondary communication network for people that dont have reliable Cell coverage.
The FCC when they approve a cell tower and a cell provider a license, require them to install and maintain a GMRS repeater.

That makes it possible for nation wide radio communications with even a 5 watt radio.

The .5 fixed antenna users can pay a $5 GMRS annual fee. No repeater use
End the FRS frequencies.

The rules were changed in 2017 and became effective in 2018 for all of the Part 95 services. All previous combo FRS/GMRS radios are now classified as FRS radios.

 

https://www.govinfo..../2017-17395.pdf

 

This site has a good summary of the new frequency and power limits.

 

https://en.wikipedia...e_Radio_Service

 

The Baofeng UV5R, and variants, don't have the required Part 95 certification from the FCC and thus are technically illegal to use for GMRS. However people use them as such since they're cheap. Is the FCC busting people for using them? Maybe not, but you are playing a game of twisting the dragon's tail so if you get flamed you had fair warning.



#4 WRAK968

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 02:50 PM

"The FCC when they approve a cell tower and a cell provider a license, require them to install and maintain a GMRS repeater." Would never every happen. I remember a group of hams who said the same thing about ham radio repeaters to help with RACES/ARES/Skywarn. If cell companies and the FCC weren't willing to work with emergency communications groups (Who by the way, often help those company's by setting up portable cell repeaters) they sure as heck wouldn't want to pay for and maintain GMRS repeaters that could be used by anyone, anywhere, anytime, while being liable for any issues that could come from such operations. The only way they would allow it would be if it was a pay-to-use system which is not allowed by FCC rules.


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#5 JohnE

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 07:05 PM

put in wrong post


Powered by Kenwood, Motorola, Cresend, Milcom and Henry


#6 Ian

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Posted 30 April 2020 - 05:02 AM

"The FCC when they approve a cell tower and a cell provider a license, require them to install and maintain a GMRS repeater." Would never every happen. I remember a group of hams who said the same thing about ham radio repeaters to help with RACES/ARES/Skywarn. If cell companies and the FCC weren't willing to work with emergency communications groups (Who by the way, often help those company's by setting up portable cell repeaters) they sure as heck wouldn't want to pay for and maintain GMRS repeaters that could be used by anyone, anywhere, anytime, while being liable for any issues that could come from such operations. The only way they would allow it would be if it was a pay-to-use system which is not allowed by FCC rules.

We'd have to rename it something like "guaranteed minimum radio service."  :-P

I've had the same fantasy, but I'm not going to get emotionally involved without a path to agitating for the cause.

 

Edit:  Anonymous delivers, and so do I:  https://www.retevis....-way-radio-rt76



#7 mire

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 02:39 PM

There are no legal GMRS radios on the market if they have 22 channels. Why?


I know I’m late to the party, but this is wrong.

mr355r_pak.jpg

Assuming you’re not counting the repeater pairs as separate channels, the Motorola MR-355R (FCC ID K7GMRCEE), as well as the MR-356R, MS-350R, MS-355R, and Liberty 500 were all 95A (legacy) radios which remain classed as GMRS radios rather than FRS radios due to their repeater capabilities. I have eight of those, so, I know they exist.

Channel 8-14 are dedicated FRS channels and transmit power on those channels is .5 watts.
Only blister packs meet the power with fixed antenna.
But the blister packs are illegal if they transmit on channels above 14


The power output limitations are the same for both services, but I’ve never seen anything saying someone operating on those channels under GMRS rules can’t use a 95A or 95E radio with a detachable antenna on them. The fixed antenna requirement is a 95B stipulation. Re: FRS users transmitting above channel 14, that information is outdated as of 2017 (I don’t remember which month). The FCC should never have certified these 22 channel “hybrid” radios in the first place, and it should always have been the law that FRS radios can not operate on any other service. Unfortunately, hindsight is always 20/20… foresight almost never is.

Baofeng radios like the UV5R
And 888s are legal to transmit on GMRS


Not really, on both counts. There was a time when some UV-5Rs had Part 90, but I feel like that time has passed. The two I own have the FCC ID of 2AJGM-UV5R, which only shows Part 15 certification for the band splits it’s capable of, meaning that - outside of Part 97 use (which doesn’t require certified equipment) - these are only legal for scanning and receiving. They most certainly are not legal for use on GMRS, MURS, or LMRS.

The BF-888S does have Part 90 (and a caveat here… in order for that to be binding, the FCC ID has to be present on the radio before it’s exported… if you’re planning on buying such radios for GMRS, you’re better off to get the GT-1 - same radio, different case - from “The BaoFeng Store on Amazon… those do have the FCC ID, whereas most BF-888S radios I’ve encountered do not). The use of Part 90 (LMR) radios on GMRS and MURS isn’t actually legal… it’s a matter of playing fast and loose with the law but with the intention of remaining in the spirit of the law even if not the letter of it. And this was brought about by a complete lack of viable options for GMRS and MURS until fairly recently. Not to mention I’ve never seen a 95A or 95E repeater. The FCC has acknowledged the practice and have left it alone, but they haven’t actually given their blessing to it.

But if a GMRS users transmission 8-14 they are breaking the stupid rules because those radios transmit on low at 1 watt and dont have fixed antennas.


I haven’t bench tested any of the 95E radios from Midland, Wouxun, or B-Tech, so I don’t know what their transmission power on those frequencies is, The fixed antenna, I’ve addressed… as licensed GMRS users, we transmit under 95E rules, which restricts us to the same power output, but the fixed antenna requirement is a part of 95B.

The same with all Amateur radio equipment.


Well, yes… the use of Part 97 or non-certified radios anything outside of Part 97 is illegal. This isn’t news except to those with no knowledge of two-way radio whatsoever who suddenly see these cheap BaoFeng, Retevis, Arcshell, etc. radios on Amazon and think they’d be great to just shoot the breeze on with whoever, or “Cletus and the boys of the 3 percenters all gots FengBaos, so I needs one too”. And if they actually do inquire on Amazon and ask a question about their legally, they get answered either by a bunch of equally ignorant bozos, or some seller’s PR person in China who knows absolutely —— all about FCC law and frequency allocations in the US.

The FCC has made mess by keeping FRS.


They made a mess by comingling it with GMRS. They made a mess by not having the foresight to anticipate what would happen by approving these ‘hybrid’ radios. Personally, I feel that, if they wanted such a service so badly, they should’ve adopted the European PMR-446 standard. Sure, the hams would throw a fit, but they get entire bands to operate on… they’re much more readily able to cope than GMRS, which is restricted to 22 frequencies, and lost exclusivity on eight of them to unlicensed squatters.
2x Kenwood TK-3180
3x Kenwood TK-380
Motorola HT750
Kenwood TK-3700
3x Kenwood TK-350G
Kenwood TK-353G
A whole slew of BaoFeng BF-888S and GT1 radios
Kenwood TK-880
Kenwood TK-890
Kenwood TK-8360

#8 WRFS771

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 04:14 PM

I posted the topic when I was new to GMRS
Commercial radios can be used on GMRS
The prices are not cheap,making I harder for families. An Amateur radio licence is free , the $15 fee goes to the radio clubs not to te FCC.
We pay $70 to the FCC and get less and we have more restrictions.
Amateur radio can make their own radios
CB has 40 channels and no licence.
NO licence required.
Morse code can be restricted by privately owned repeaters on gmrs.
$70 is a taxation, gmrs radios with repeater use should be less.
A UV5R is legal for Amateur radio use, well GMRS users paid a tax for use.
Staying in your allowed frequencies is all that should matter for transmitting.
I'm both an Amateur licence holder and GMRS licence holder. Meaning I have to carry 2 radios when 1 can do the job

#9 WRFS771

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 04:29 PM

Btech GMRS V1 4 watt on
70cm GMRS, you need a tactical antenna
I belong the nations largest GMRS repeater network. The radio and most legal GMRS radios can't hold 14 or more repeaters in memory
Btech GMRS 50x1
50watts but also limited
In GMRS memory.
Btech makes this same radio for Amateur
They can save and program 200+ repeaters
The GMRS version restricts you to about 8 transmit repeaters but has the memory to listen to over 200+

That is the example
GMRS pays $70 tax and get less and higher radio prices that do less in an emergency.

Amateur pay $0 in tax to th FCC
Any frequency I legal in an emergency

The same for a GMRS user or a radio owner that just listens.
Why pay a fee to be less prepared with less capabilities on GMRS radios

#10 mbrun

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Posted 15 September 2020 - 07:46 PM

The Wouxun KG-805G, of which I own 2, has 128 memories for storing your choice of GMRS repeater pairs and squelch codes. Each memory can be custom named as well.

The radio has full legal access to all 22 GMRS simplex channels plus the 8 main GMRS repeater input channels.

Wouxun also has a new one expected to be released in October. A web search will turn it up. It is the KG-UV9G, a GMRS specific version of their KG-UV9D amateur radio.

Michael
WRHS965

....The radio and most legal GMRS radios can't hold 14 or more repeaters in memory



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#11 WRFS771

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 12:39 AM

Very cool thanks for sharing
At the time BTech USA and commercial radios seemed to be the only choice.
I'm glad to hear this radio will allow programming of more than 8 repeater frequencies.
Still, the price is price is a factor when you might need a radio for all family members. $400 for a family of 5 plus any that might be in the hands of younger users makes it a hefty investment.
Have you seen any mobile or base stations with the added repeater abilities?

The Wouxun KG-805G, of which I own 2, has 128 memories for storing your choice of GMRS repeater pairs and squelch codes. Each memory can be custom named as well.

The radio has full legal access to all 22 GMRS simplex channels plus the 8 main GMRS repeater input channels.

Wouxun also has a new one expected to be released in October. A web search will turn it up. It is the KG-UV9G, a GMRS specific version of their KG-UV9D amateur radio.

Michael
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#12 WRFS771

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 01:03 AM

I read the stats
It says 8 repeater channels
Can you add more than the 8 with the 5k offset?
I know it says 128 memory
But the memory channels with most GMRS radios are for
Recieve only.
Plus this is only a 70cm radio
Gmrs 1-8 is shared with FRS
, FRS o. Those are allowed 2 watts.. 9-14 half watt.
Can this radio transmit at half watt on those or just recieve?
Again, we are paying a tax.
The reason for families having radios is for fun and emergency use.
The law is clear, any channel can be used to transmit in a real world emergency, so why limit GMRS users equipment? We are the only ones paying the government for public use.
Our equipment should have the same capabilities as
Amateur radios.
Your licence should be what decides frequencies you have access to to use openly
In an emergency, you dont want to be limited to only GMRS or FRS
Especially is remote areas.
Just my 2 cents worth.
I hold both Amateur and GMRS licences
GMRS allows VOIP use to be linked. Our GMRS repeater network has that option.
Again, its another peice of equipment. For Amateur that's fine, it's a hobby
For families is preparedness and cost is a factor
A cellphone, RF radio if cell service goes down.
DMR should not be limited to Amateur radio.
DMR should have its place in GMRS as well.
Again. Amateur can listen but must have a GMRS licence to transmit and vice versa .

Dont limit people. In an emergency you are trying to make a contact

#13 WRFS771

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 01:03 AM

Stats on the radio
Wouxun KG-805G Features
22 GMRS Channels
8 GMRS Repeater Channels
Repeater Capable
5 Watts Transmit Power
Li-Ion Battery Pack
Rechargeable Battery Included
Battery Charger
PC Programming Support
Add/Remove Channels (via software)
Supports 128 Channles (via software)
FM Radio
Alarm Feature
Channel Scan
Busy Channel Lockout
155 CTCSS/DCS Tones
Backlit LCD Display
Backlit Keys
Battery Meter
Low Battery Alert
Power Saver
Timeout Timer
VOX
Key Lock
Audible Button Beeps
Drop-In Charge Capable
Audio Accessory Connector
IP55 Water Resistant
One Year Manufacturer Warranty

#14 WRFS771

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 01:27 AM

My point is, we have
50 states and a few extra US territories.
Every GMRS radio should be repeater programmable ahead of time with 5k + or -
With a memory of at least 180 memory slots
And all 155 CTCSS/DCS Tones
Sone advanced radios scan and identify CTCSS tones
But if you and your family travel, you want the ability to have repeater access as a traveler and why I feel cell providers should assist in providing repeaters on their towers since we pay cell FCC fees and GMRS fcc fees.
Most private repeater network allow travelers to use.
A radio with internet wifi tethering to use with voip would be a good addition to a radio. A single app like Zello on a GMRS radio
Let's family talk all at once over zello if tethered to their cell service or a data sim card added.
Just pick up and talk, no dialing, group or individual conversations.
And the ability to add a GMRS zello channel that also transmits like DMR over RF.

Food for thought.
We are the only users that pay for public use.
Businesses pay for a private lease and Amateur only pay a testing fee to radio groups, they dont pay the FCC.
Only GMRS pay for public use and we should get more not less.
CB is free and has 40 channels
MURS is free
FRS is free
Amateur Radio is free

Amateur and GMRS are the only public frequencies allowed to use repeaters.

Other than cellphones that use repeaters and Frequencies to transmit phone calls over RF and VOIP.

Government has the ability to ask cell companies to put
GMRS repeaters on th wir towers because citizens are paying a GMRS tax fee.
Taxation without representation.

#15 WRFS771

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 01:51 AM

They do have cellphones with RF radio capabilities 2m and 70cm VHF/UHF , redundant backup if cell service goes down.
Amateur radio users can use them.
GMRS users should be able s well.
To use VOIP on repeaters or not
The same ability to transmit
On 400-470
And program offsets
Maybe cell companies can require Amateur , gmrs , business users and FRS to have access codes in a sim card where a users license is registered on the equipment in use.
An override for emergency RF transmission.
In scan mode when an active frequency is found, the user should be able to transmit on that frequency after entering a pin number that identifies them and their account.

Why does the FCC have to complicate things?
The truth is , it's about money
ALCATEL OFFERS GROUP CHAT on their phones like a radio.
It's no different
Our nation has the ability to keep people connected if Cell service or internet goes down. REPEATERS help as long as backup power is available and people would still have simplex after repeaters ran out of power.

#16 wayoverthere

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 02:17 AM

I read the stats
It says 8 repeater channels
Can you add more than the 8 with the 5k offset?
I know it says 128 memory
But the memory channels with most GMRS radios are for
Recieve only.
Plus this is only a 70cm radio
Gmrs 1-8 is shared with FRS
, FRS o. Those are allowed 2 watts.. 9-14 half watt.
Can this radio transmit at half watt on those or just recieve?
 

 

so..my use case:  I have 2 repeaters in range on channel 16, with different codes...wanted to program them in separate memory slots.

  • i'm still in that frustration zone, having discovered the  gmrs 50x1, as i discovered their implementation of locking it down has it hard coded for transmit on the 1-7, 15-22, and 15r-22r only.  everything above that (and 8-14) is receive only, even if it's in band for gmrs.
  • i also have the wouxun; it definitely does transmit on 8-14, though i put the meter on it on those channels.  i want to say i saw someone tested it to be ~1/3 watt, which makes sense with removable antennas and the limit being ERP, not output; this way you shuld be safely under no matter your antenna.
  • on the repeater side, the wouxun absolutely CAN add transmittable channels beyond the preloaded 30 for frs/gmrs, as i have it added with my 2 repeaters in separate slots with the appropriate codes.  along with that, i added another set of 15r-22r as "new15r" thru "new22r" to have two sets of slots available when travelling without having to reprogram any of my local repeaters (that have their own memory slots).


#17 berkinet

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 02:39 AM

Maybe I am the only one, but I am confused about the purpose of this ongoing rant. Complaints on an online forum are not going to change anything. If you want change, file a Petition for Rulemaking with the FCC. Then get people to support your petition.

But, to the points you raise. First, about GMRS radios themselves: Some of your facts are wrong or off target, there is no need for a -5 MHz (not KHz) offset on a GMRS radio. There are only 8 repeater input frequencies defined and those are all 5MHz higher than the 8 defined repeater input frequencies. And, the number of internal memory locations (aka "channels) that a given user needs is very difficult to determine. Probably more than 22, but 180? Zello? Zello works just fine without a GMRS radio at all. But, Zello is an Internet (IP) based app, which means anything that connects to Zello needs an Internet connection. But, you also suggest GMRS should work when away from any cellular infrastructure. So, how is your Zello equipped GMRS radio supposed to connect to Zello when you are in the middle of nowhere? And you complaint about morse code, I really don't know what that is about? We live in a free market economic system. Manufacturers are free to offer products they feel will meet customer and investor needs. You have a choice. And, if you don't like the certified GMRS products you can choose from, there are plenty of other options, from super-cheap CCRs to super-high end Part-90 commercial equipment.

Technical questions aside, your major complaint seems to be about licensing fees. Here again I think you are off base. Many services, especially commercial, marine, aviation, LMR, broadcast, common carrier, cellular, etc. have licensing fees and they are often quite expensive. At $7 a year, GMRS is cheap by comparison. Yes, it is more than Amateur. But, Amateur radio is also considered a public service, with a long history and International agreements. And, what difference does it make who you pay a licensing fee to the FCC, the ARRL, a local radio club or whatever? But, even here you are not current. There is now a proposal in the FCC to lower GMRS licensing fees to $50 and add a fee for Amateur radio. The reason? It appears federal law requires fees be set to recover costs. The GMRS fee was bringing in too much money, ham radio was bringing in nothing.

You also object to being taxed on your GMRS radio, but have no issue with the FCC requiring a cell phone company to offer a GMRS repeater service on every tower for free. When you consider the equipment and installation costs, plus administration and maintenance costs, are you willing to pay for that every month when Verizon and AT&T raise your bill to cover their costs? There is no free lunch.

Ok, you obviously feel strongly about something, otherwise you wouldn't have started this topic and posted 7 follow-up comments. But, it is really hard to understand just what it is you are complaining about and what you think should be done about it. Can you succinctly state the top 5 high level problems you see with GMRS today, the reasons you think those are problems, and 5 proposed solutions.
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#18 mbrun

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Posted 16 September 2020 - 05:31 AM

All I can say is Wow!

Thanks Berkinet for saying what was on my mind.


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#19 Lscott

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Posted 19 September 2020 - 08:49 AM

Personally, I feel that, if they wanted such a service so badly, they should’ve adopted the European PMR-446 standard. Sure, the hams would throw a fit, but they get entire bands to operate on… they’re much more readily able to cope than GMRS, which is restricted to 22 frequencies, and lost exclusivity on eight of them to unlicensed squatters.

That won't go over so well is absolutely right.

 

The Ham bands are ALWAYS being looked at by various groups to use. Hams already lost part of the 1.25 meter band due to UPS wanting it.

 

At the site below look under the section heading "U.S. reallocation" for a brief history lesson.

 

https://en.wikipedia...1.25-meter_band

 

Hams have to constantly watch their bands for illegal CB'ers on the 12M and 10M bands, local TV stations on the old analog channel 2 made 6M almost unusable in those areas, fishing boats - high power Chinese cordless phones among other junk operating illegally on 2M, and on 70cm there is a low power commercial allocation at 433MHz, right in the middle of the band.

 

Hams also had to deal with some companies using parts of 70cm for police drones etc. not to mention the band is shared with the US military. The later was an issue with the military Pave-Paws radars.

 

http://www.arrl.org/...-radar-upgrades

 



#20 kb2ztx

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Posted 21 September 2020 - 05:38 AM

OK. I think we all agree you dont like GMRS, dont like the rules of GMRS and dont like the FCC. Simple solution go find another service to use. 


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