Whats with repeater users needing permission on GMRS?

[JCase]

I am in complete support of the GMRS community. With that said, THIS IS NOT AMATEUR RADIO (HAM) !.

Just to be perfectly clear, again, this is NOT amateur (HAM) radio and was/is not designed/created as such.

Nowhere that I have read, is it my responsibility to promote, encourage or even support GMRS use whether it be for family, business, personal or at the hobby level of use. That would be better served in the Amateur (HAM) radio classification and it's something they do quite well. I support and commend the HAM's for the time, expense and dedication they have and continue to perform at. I whole heartedly support their mission. I also can't thank them enough for their OUTSTANDING work and support of the citizens, emergency services agencies, infrastructure, beit power, water, red cross and the list goes on,  during major incidents such as hurricanes, wildland fires and other manmade and natural disasters. The amount of money, time, training and dedication these folks invest is unbelievable and GREATLY APPRECIATED !.   My hat is off to each and every operator . 

 

However, again I say, this is NOT amateur (HAM) radio, was not created by the FCC as such and the rules governing its use do not reflect such, so why is it always compared to and "expected to be" just like the Amateur service.

If you prefer the way repeaters are operated in the Amateur field, then by all means choose and use that spectrum. If GMRS is a better fit for your needs and expectations, please feel free to utilize GMRS. The same goes for the Business classification and the rest. Understand (which requires you to take the time to read) the intended purpose and acceptable use and practices of this spectrum and you'll save yourself and the rest of us the possible aggravation and possible heart ache, associated with potentially choosing the wrong classification. Your failure to do so should not result in me being expected to and receive ridicule if I don't, conform to "your vision or expectation" of GMRS.

I placed my repeater in service to serve the needs of myself, my family, my friends and my team, all of whom are current GMRS license holders. As a courtesy, let me say that again, as a "courtesy", I decided to offer access to, with my prior permission, other local, licensed users, that felt they could benefit from the use of this repeater. Why limit access to permission only and local only ? This checks several boxes on my list. First, I want to verify that the person or persons using my repeater are in fact currently licensed, local, and have a specific need to support their request. Second, it's another tool in the quest to keep control over the type of use my repeater will be utilized for and as a responsible and liable repeater owner, this is one of many ways I attempt to accomplish this. Another reason is notifications, if I need to take the repeater off the air for any reason or there's a problem that all users should be aware of, I am able to make notification to ALL operators that I have granted permission to by a group email. Yes, I keep a current list of everyone permission has been granted to as well as all of those who have requested access but were denied along with the reason for denial. 

I have spent and continue to spend a substantial amount of money to place this system on and keep it on the air and while it is still not able to deliver an optimum coverage area, continue to explore the possibilities for improvement almost daily. As most are already aware, every time that repeater is keyed up, it's causing additional wear and shortening the life of the equipment. So, unless someone has an unlimited amount of disposable income available to them it would only make sense that a GMRS repeater owner could & would take steps to limit the amount of unnecessary wear to their system in an attempt to lesson the maintenance and inevitable replacement cost, attempt to limit the amount of down time and most of all ensure the system is operational when they need it.  This is one of the reasons that I clearly state in my listing that THIS system is not a "social networking" system. I not only discourage but will revoke permission to someone who decides they're going to start a lengthy transmission on what they had for dinner last night or what they watched on television etc. as this not the intended use I want for my equipment and causes the repeater to be tied up unnecessarily while causing  the most damage (over time) to any system. Both are issues I am attempting to avoid by clearly conveying my rules in advance and if you don't like my rules, there's nothing written anywhere that says you "MUST" use my repeater. There are other repeater frequencies you can choose (or if you wanted to be a less than neighborly user (a jerk) you could choose the same frequency) and if there are no other repeaters available in your area and you don't like my rules, you are more than welcome to purchase, install and maintain your very own system where you too can make up the rules for accessing and utilizing your repeater. Yet another reason why I state once again, know and understand the different types of licensing/spectrum available and choose accordingly.

 

I hope everyone that does signs up for and use GMRS has a positive experience and if GMRS is right for you, would encourage you to pursue obtaining your license. Just make sure you are choosing the correct category/spectrum for your likes & needs first.  Good luck to all, stay healthy, well, safe and happy.

 

Respectfully submitted,

John 

[SkylinesSuck]

10 hours ago, JeepCrawler98 said:

Using another repeater falls under the cooperative use clause and restrictions by the owner fall under 'individual licensee duties' of 47 CFR §95.1705:
 

Repeaters are still classified as 'stations.' This section is why many repeater owners require permission, as they're technically required to keep a list of control stations.

Key takeaways:

"Shall determine specifically which individuals, including family members, are allowed to operate (i.e., exercise operational control over) its GMRS station(s)"

(2) May allow any person to use (i.e., benefit from the operation of) its GMRS repeater, or alternatively, may limit the use of its GMRS repeater to specific persons;

(3) May disallow the use of its GMRS repeater by specific persons as may be necessary to carry out its responsibilities under this section.

"Specifically" in that first paragraph implies that a repeater's licensee must specify who you allow to act as a control station (which is any station using a repeater) over your GMRS station (in this case a repeater). This pretty much means that you have a duty as a repeater owner to keep a list of users to be compliant with this rule.

This is aside from helping to tune out the noise caused by people who take others' hard work for granted and cause trouble.

I don't think anyone stumbling onto a GMRS repeater is breaking the rules as a control station since it's hard to post a repeater as locked down in a matter fitting public notice; but the repeater owner does have a legal burden to keep track of you as a permitted user which users need to be aware of and thus should notify repeater owners of their intent. Of course, per the above, they can tell you to get off their equipment too and it's entirely within their rights to do so.

In practice; is this ever enforced and does the FCC care? I doubt it - but it is in the rules.

That is more restrictive than I thought. Good info, thanks.

[DONE]

I believe I need to say this after the Darth Vader post before.

Here's my personal take and my situation.

Most of you are NOT going to be able to park an antenna system 240 feet AGL and 700 feet HAAT and connect your repeater to it.  I can.

Most of you are NOT going to have a multi-port TX combiner that allows you to connect MULTIPLE repeaters on multiple frequencies to one antenna.  I have that as well.

Most of you are not going to have a stream of faulty equipment that you have the knowledge and equipment to repair and put on the air and instead need to purchase new or used hardware that honestly ain't cheap. 

Again, perks of being a radio guy.  Some folks will say it's just too old replace it, so I do.  I ask what they want done with the old stuff and remind them it's technically classified as hazardous waste (due to chemicals in capacitors and the lead based solder) and they request we dispose of it. 

All that being said.  If you had the ability to park an antenna that high.  Cover 7 counties with your GMRS repeater and have that level of coverage, you no doubt would but it's not in the reach of many.  For me it's right down the road, so I do it.  And the fact that's it's NOT on a 40 foot TV tower in the back yard and can only cover the two closest towns and no further, I feel it's my responsibility if I am gonna occupy the frequencies that I need to allow EVERYONE that is licensed and operates within the rules to use the repeaters I provide.  So I do allow everyone.  I closely follow the laws.  I do have others around me running DMR on GMRS, Selling access as a for profit business (his business license attached to his GMRS site indicates its NOT a non-profit) I refuse to do either.  If I want to sell air time,,, I will go get an FB6 or market frequency (would need it due to footprint) and sell air time on a commercial community repeater.  I ain't into that though.

Don't think that since I do this, you need to do the same.  But if you DO decide to put your GMRS repeater system on full send and cover 7 counties with it,  remember that you ARE creating interference for others that are not. And in doing so, their repeater on a 40 foot tower becomes useless to them as you overpower it when your repeater starts to transmit.  That guy SHOULD have access to your system because you are denying him access to his stuff. Or at least interfering with it a lot.

I have worked with and continue to work with the local guys.  We have put together a band plan, I have setup duplexers and repeaters for those guys to interleave their channels with my efforts to minimize interference.  And I will continue to do so. 

 

[mbrun]

I believe I need to say this after the Darth Vader post before.
Here's my personal take and my situation.
Most of you are NOT going to be able to park an antenna system 240 feet AGL and 700 feet HAAT and connect your repeater to it.  I can.
Most of you are NOT going to have a multi-port TX combiner that allows you to connect MULTIPLE repeaters on multiple frequencies to one antenna.  I have that as well.
Most of you are not going to have a stream of faulty equipment that you have the knowledge and equipment to repair and put on the air and instead need to purchase new or used hardware that honestly ain't cheap. 
Again, perks of being a radio guy.  Some folks will say it's just too old replace it, so I do.  I ask what they want done with the old stuff and remind them it's technically classified as hazardous waste (due to chemicals in capacitors and the lead based solder) and they request we dispose of it. 
All that being said.  If you had the ability to park an antenna that high.  Cover 7 counties with your GMRS repeater and have that level of coverage, you no doubt would but it's not in the reach of many.  For me it's right down the road, so I do it.  And the fact that's it's NOT on a 40 foot TV tower in the back yard and can only cover the two closest towns and no further, I feel it's my responsibility if I am gonna occupy the frequencies that I need to allow EVERYONE that is licensed and operates within the rules to use the repeaters I provide.  So I do allow everyone.  I closely follow the laws.  I do have others around me running DMR on GMRS, Selling access as a for profit business (his business license attached to his GMRS site indicates its NOT a non-profit) I refuse to do either.  If I want to sell air time,,, I will go get an FB6 or market frequency (would need it due to footprint) and sell air time on a commercial community repeater.  I ain't into that though.
Don't think that since I do this, you need to do the same.  But if you DO decide to put your GMRS repeater system on full send and cover 7 counties with it,  remember that you ARE creating interference for others that are not. And in doing so, their repeater on a 40 foot tower becomes useless to them as you overpower it when your repeater starts to transmit.  That guy SHOULD have access to your system because you are denying him access to his stuff. Or at least interfering with it a lot.
I have worked with and continue to work with the local guys.  We have put together a band plan, I have setup duplexers and repeaters for those guys to interleave their channels with my efforts to minimize interference.  And I will continue to do so. 
 

You make a very good point and I appreciate saying it. How I interpret what you are saying is “with freedom and rights comes even bigger responsibility”.

Thanks to you and all your fellow high profile repeater owners for sharing with the community.


Michael
WRHS965
KE8PLM

[Doctnj]

Wow this is an old thread with some newer replies.  I'm glad there are some you tubers that can make the radio world look fun and interesting.  Cause man there are some complexes going on here. 

[IanM]

Somewhat new GMRS user (at least in the world of repeaters) and new ham (but with a lengthy interest in radio in general) here, and I'm maybe wading into dangerous territory with this older thread, but I do have some thoughts, and that it's worth respecting both viewpoints here on repeater access and use of the few channels we have. 

As with any hobby, we want to find a use for our toys, and those uses can be varied. Sometimes it's easy to forget there are other sides of the hobby, or antagonize them.  Not everyone is using the radio just for the sake of using a radio

Over on the ham side, you've got all sorts of things. CW and DXing, ARES/RACES, social nets, AMSAT, packet radio, you name it. I don't know how much overlap there is on each of those niches, but there's plenty of spectrum to go around. Or at least enough. Yet there's still plenty of arguing by the "Sad Hams" on who's doing it right, which seems to be whatever they aren't.

OTOH, we're limited to 22 little channels here, and only 50W and repeaters on 8 of them (six, if you're like me and 'North of Line A'). We have to play nice. Thanks to the past posters who mentioned the roots of GMRS as CB Class-A and some business use, which explains why we get such a small slice of spectrum. Thankfully, we're not dictated on what we can use it for. But for better or worse, we share it with FRS, and bubble-packs (licensed or not), Garmin RHINO, legacy-license businesses, and the like. Clearly it's used as a 'utility' service, whatever that may be. Maybe to you it's shooting the breeze, and to others its something else, and that's the beauty of it, since by nature it's fairly limited in range.

I've seen complaints around the web of GMRS users coming across families yapping, traffic flaggers and the like, and, well, assuming they're licensed or using FRS, they have every right to be there. Even if they're not, they're there, and thankfully at least around here it doesn't sound anything like the chaos of CB. That's why we're limited to 50W and not 1500W. (also thankfully, in my area in the middle of Seattle, all I ever hear regularly are some carpenters on a nearby construction site, and a parent checking in on their child walking home from school.) Yes, its frustrating to hear kids screaming on Channel 1 day and night, but the disdain should be towards discourteous users, rather than all utility users.

Someone earlier mentioned communication while kayaking, and similarly I'm sure many here are off-roaders switching from other communication modes, and as another person replied, for them the radio is in support of another hobby, rather than the hobby itself. For me, I'm interested in radio as a hobby as well, but in a way I can use it for what I need. That's the type of thing I use it for—group and family outings and beyond-cell, or alternative-to-cell communications. To that end I like that GMRS is relatively quiet.Something I don't appreciate, when I have been using it for intra-party communications, is someone coming on a simplex channel and asking to strike up a conversation. No, I don't want to chat, I'm halfway down a mountain, trying to get ahold of our ride at the trailhead. Using tones appears to be a no-no in ham bands, but I definitely use them on GMRS simplex. 

Anyway. With all that said, I certainly understand @JCase's views on this, in wanting to limit all those other uses when you need wide coverage. In the Seattle area, we've got quite a few repeaters, including many unlisted ones in-city, that are private, for neighborhood/emergency use, or request permission and discourage rag-chewing. That's their choice—unlike in amateur, there's no (voluntary) governing body on choosing a channel, and they don't have rule over a specific frequency, but it's their equipment and they have every right to be picky over who can access it. Many of them are in areas with no cellular coverage, and I too would be a bit miffed if I couldn't get through to family member because of chitchat, or they turned their radio off because of such. And I appreciate those that have extended the offer to me with the expectation I'm not going to yak all day to strangers. Most of them are not 'for absolute emergency use only'—they want them to be used, but they also want them to be usable and not clogged up.

Again, 50W will only go so far in most places. It's their right, legally and in practice, to have a privately accessed system, and it's likely not going to step on others' systems. This is what I mean by GMRS being utility oriented. 

But in counterpoint, I also appreciate those like @WRKC935 that have invested the time, money and effort into building something for complete public access. Looking at the WWARA database, I'm astounded at how many repeaters are in the area. And scanning through, equally astounded at how many are dead quiet, or on further research strongly discourage use other than some specific purpose; again, that's their right as equipment owners, but it's nice that some owners have stepped up to provide a community forum. On those bands, where repeater slots are coordinated, both 2m and 70cm are pretty full with very wide coverage systems—there's no room to say "hey, I'll just start my own repeater!"

Again here, on GMRS, we have one repeater up on Tiger Mountain that covers much of the region, and it gets used for ragchewing, even if it's the same 5 or so guys, and that's great that it doesn't sit there silent. Agreed with @mbrun that if you're gong to cover that much ground with one frequency, it is a public service in a way. People have the technical know-how and resources to set up something like that make it more useful for everyone, not just radio junkies. Moreso than the amateur band, I do believe that, with cellular taking away a lot of the user base and the growth of different wireless data modes, GMRS is at use-it-or-lose-it risk.

I do hope this doesn't come off as the radio police (or alternately, too wishy-washy). I try not to be pedantic, since there's too much arguing over Part 95 or when to ID and things like that. I just think that we occupy a special niche—restricted in equipment, power, and frequencies, but not in coordinating through a regulating body; we're neither CB nor amateur—but it's small, and we need to make everyone happy. You can have a small private repeater for your neighborhood or a public one for your whole county, but be understanding of other uses, even the mom calling kids in for dinner on simplex.

And to @Doctnj the radio world is fun, and there's lots to play with and many ways to put it into good use. I've long been an audio and phone tinkerer, and I thank MacJack on here for suggesting I get my ham ticket, since I learned in studying for it that there's a lot more to that than the quite literally old boys' club, and room to experiment with things you can bring back to GMRS. No reason to be one or the other!

[MichaelLAX]

Why only 22 and not 30 channels?

Oooops: which 8 more am I gonna get in trouble using?!? 

[pcradio]

16 hours ago, IanM said:

Somewhat new GMRS user (at least in the world of repeaters) and new ham (but with a lengthy interest in radio in general) here ...

Great observations. I too use GMRS for hiking and the like. I need to relay some information about my coordinates or whatever, not try to break up a rag-chew session. With the Ham frequencies, they have so many (at least for simplex) to do that on. At my location, the repeaters are not used too much for that.

[Doctnj]

7 hours ago, IanM said:

Somewhat new GMRS user (at least in the world of repeaters) and new ham (but with a lengthy interest in radio in general) here, and I'm maybe wading into dangerous territory with this older thread, but I do have some thoughts, and that it's worth respecting both viewpoints here on repeater access and use of the few channels we have. 

As with any hobby, we want to find a use for our toys, and those uses can be varied. Sometimes it's easy to forget there are other sides of the hobby, or antagonize them.  Not everyone is using the radio just for the sake of using a radio

Over on the ham side, you've got all sorts of things. CW and DXing, ARES/RACES, social nets, AMSAT, packet radio, you name it. I don't know how much overlap there is on each of those niches, but there's plenty of spectrum to go around. Or at least enough. Yet there's still plenty of arguing by the "Sad Hams" on who's doing it right, which seems to be whatever they aren't.

OTOH, we're limited to 22 little channels here, and only 50W and repeaters on 8 of them (six, if you're like me and 'North of Line A'). We have to play nice. Thanks to the past posters who mentioned the roots of GMRS as CB Class-A and some business use, which explains why we get such a small slice of spectrum. Thankfully, we're not dictated on what we can use it for. But for better or worse, we share it with FRS, and bubble-packs (licensed or not), Garmin RHINO, legacy-license businesses, and the like. Clearly it's used as a 'utility' service, whatever that may be. Maybe to you it's shooting the breeze, and to others its something else, and that's the beauty of it, since by nature it's fairly limited in range.

I've seen complaints around the web of GMRS users coming across families yapping, traffic flaggers and the like, and, well, assuming they're licensed or using FRS, they have every right to be there. Even if they're not, they're there, and thankfully at least around here it doesn't sound anything like the chaos of CB. That's why we're limited to 50W and not 1500W. (also thankfully, in my area in the middle of Seattle, all I ever hear regularly are some carpenters on a nearby construction site, and a parent checking in on their child walking home from school.) Yes, its frustrating to hear kids screaming on Channel 1 day and night, but the disdain should be towards discourteous users, rather than all utility users.

Someone earlier mentioned communication while kayaking, and similarly I'm sure many here are off-roaders switching from other communication modes, and as another person replied, for them the radio is in support of another hobby, rather than the hobby itself. For me, I'm interested in radio as a hobby as well, but in a way I can use it for what I need. That's the type of thing I use it for—group and family outings and beyond-cell, or alternative-to-cell communications. To that end I like that GMRS is relatively quiet.Something I don't appreciate, when I have been using it for intra-party communications, is someone coming on a simplex channel and asking to strike up a conversation. No, I don't want to chat, I'm halfway down a mountain, trying to get ahold of our ride at the trailhead. Using tones appears to be a no-no in ham bands, but I definitely use them on GMRS simplex. 

Anyway. With all that said, I certainly understand @JCase's views on this, in wanting to limit all those other uses when you need wide coverage. In the Seattle area, we've got quite a few repeaters, including many unlisted ones in-city, that are private, for neighborhood/emergency use, or request permission and discourage rag-chewing. That's their choice—unlike in amateur, there's no (voluntary) governing body on choosing a channel, and they don't have rule over a specific frequency, but it's their equipment and they have every right to be picky over who can access it. Many of them are in areas with no cellular coverage, and I too would be a bit miffed if I couldn't get through to family member because of chitchat, or they turned their radio off because of such. And I appreciate those that have extended the offer to me with the expectation I'm not going to yak all day to strangers. Most of them are not 'for absolute emergency use only'—they want them to be used, but they also want them to be usable and not clogged up.

Again, 50W will only go so far in most places. It's their right, legally and in practice, to have a privately accessed system, and it's likely not going to step on others' systems. This is what I mean by GMRS being utility oriented. 

But in counterpoint, I also appreciate those like @WRKC935 that have invested the time, money and effort into building something for complete public access. Looking at the WWARA database, I'm astounded at how many repeaters are in the area. And scanning through, equally astounded at how many are dead quiet, or on further research strongly discourage use other than some specific purpose; again, that's their right as equipment owners, but it's nice that some owners have stepped up to provide a community forum. On those bands, where repeater slots are coordinated, both 2m and 70cm are pretty full with very wide coverage systems—there's no room to say "hey, I'll just start my own repeater!"

Again here, on GMRS, we have one repeater up on Tiger Mountain that covers much of the region, and it gets used for ragchewing, even if it's the same 5 or so guys, and that's great that it doesn't sit there silent. Agreed with @mbrun that if you're gong to cover that much ground with one frequency, it is a public service in a way. People have the technical know-how and resources to set up something like that make it more useful for everyone, not just radio junkies. Moreso than the amateur band, I do believe that, with cellular taking away a lot of the user base and the growth of different wireless data modes, GMRS is at use-it-or-lose-it risk.

I do hope this doesn't come off as the radio police (or alternately, too wishy-washy). I try not to be pedantic, since there's too much arguing over Part 95 or when to ID and things like that. I just think that we occupy a special niche—restricted in equipment, power, and frequencies, but not in coordinating through a regulating body; we're neither CB nor amateur—but it's small, and we need to make everyone happy. You can have a small private repeater for your neighborhood or a public one for your whole county, but be understanding of other uses, even the mom calling kids in for dinner on simplex.

And to @Doctnj the radio world is fun, and there's lots to play with and many ways to put it into good use. I've long been an audio and phone tinkerer, and I thank MacJack on here for suggesting I get my ham ticket, since I learned in studying for it that there's a lot more to that than the quite literally old boys' club, and room to experiment with things you can bring back to GMRS. No reason to be one or the other!

One of the first things I did out of the gate was put up a repeater outside of town and advertised it on all gmrs web pages. It's actually getting kind of busy on there at times.  We will be putting up a few more and try linking w strictly RF to stay away from internet. So the fcc ok's 50 watt repeaters but only one Chinese company makes radios that are 95 certified to be used as repeater with less than perfect duty cycle. They need to allow the use of other equipment that can be programmed similar to part 95.

[DONE]

IanM brings up a lot of good points and I am planning on putting together a sort of HOW-TO on frequency coordination.  I will say that it would take cooperation form the GMRS community.  But, if that cooperation could be obtained, it would work out well for all involved.  In fact, it's something that MYGMRS.com web site  could possibly host the data for so that it would all be public and guys could look at it and hopefully administrate it.  There is a coverage mapping software that runs here now, but far as I know it ONLY shows the footprint of the specific repeater you are currently viewing. 

I hear the comments about being limited to 50 watts. 

Well, here's the thing with that.  You are trying to communicate with portables that are 4 watts and mobiles that are 10 to 40 watts typically and have antenna heights below 10 feet.  I have two repeaters on the air currently.  One is 40 watt and the other is 50 watts.  They both have a coverage footprint that extends over 30 miles in some directions.  And because of the antenna system I am running.  One transmit and one receive for up to 4 repeaters.  The loss in the transmit combiner with 50 watts in means I am getting about 12 watts coming out of the building headed to the tower and antenna.  And I cover over 30 miles. 

 

[WyoJoe]

3 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

Why only 22 and not 30 channels?

Oooops: which 8 more am I gonna get in trouble using?!? 

I think the reference to 22 channels was taking into account that the repeater channels share the same output frequencies as channels 15 to 22. So yes, there are typically 30 channels, but 8 of them are duplicated, in a manner of speaking.

[MichaelLAX]

11 hours ago, WyoJoe said:

I think the reference to 22 channels was taking into account that the repeater channels share the same output frequencies as channels 15 to 22. So yes, there are typically 30 channels, but 8 of them are duplicated, in a manner of speaking.

I see what you are saying, but actually in my use, they are not duplicated:

When I am transmitting on Channel 15, I am transmitting simplex: both receiving and transmitting on 462.550.

But if I am transmitting on Channel 23, I am using a repeater split: receiving on 462.550 but transmitting on 467.550.

This gives me the ability to reach two complete different sets of people to communicate with.

The same is true on Channels 16-22 as compared to Channels 24 - 30.

[Radioguy7268]

Except the person you're talking to on 462.xxx simplex is still going to hear you if you're using a repeater to talk to someone else when transmitting on the high side of 467.xxx  (PL mask or not, you're still on that repeater's output frequency.)

There's no "extra" channel capacity - unless you're on the very fringe of a repeater's coverage area, and counting on the FM Capture effect of your stronger local Simplex signal over-riding the weaker signal of the distant repeater.  Even then, any other user in your local area is going to be either listening to you, or waiting for you to be done before they can effectively use the channel for their conversation. You might segment people into talkgroups via PL based fleets or subfleets, but you don't gain any channel capacity.

In short, I agree with the 22 channel comment.

[MichaelLAX]

6 hours ago, Radioguy7268 said:

Except the person you're talking to on 462.xxx simplex is still going to hear you if you're using a repeater to talk to someone else when transmitting on the high side of 467.xxx  (PL mask or not, you're still on that repeater's output frequency.)

I am not sure what your point is here: do I care if the simplex guy can still hear me (through the repeater output, of course)?

In the first instance, simplex, I can talk to someone who is in my simplex range and when I use the repeater, I can talk to a much broader range of people, who cannot hear me unless I use the PL tone (and for the most part cannot hear the simplex guy either).

I must use two separate channels to achieve both of these conversations: a simplex conversation and a repeater distance-enhanced conversation. Hence Channels 23-30, so that I can transmit on 467.xxx to achieve these conversations, which I cannot achieve on Channels 15-22.

There's no "extra" channel capacity - unless you're on the very fringe of a repeater's coverage area, and counting on the FM Capture effect of your stronger local Simplex signal over-riding the weaker signal of the distant repeater. 

Of course, I would usually avoid Channels between 23-30, that have a significant repeater output on them in my area to communicate simplex.

That being said, I hear many simplex conversations on the repeater output channels, here in Los Angeles, because these are the only channels that allow up to 50 watts and are probably located in areas not significantly reached by the output of those local repeaters on the same frequency.

Even then, any other user in your local area is going to be either listening to you, or waiting for you to be done before they can effectively use the channel for their conversation.

Again, I am not sure what your point is here: this is true for Channels 1-22 as well! 

You might segment people into talkgroups via PL based fleets or subfleets, but you don't gain any channel capacity.

In short, I agree with the 22 channel comment.,an opinion to which you are entitled.

Lastly, if I am having a simplex conversation on Channel 15 with a FRS user, he lacks the channel capacity to join me on the repeater on Channel 23; he only has 22 channels and is missing Channels 23-30!

In short: FRS has only 22 channels; while GMRS has 30.

So if you only program your radio to Channels 1-22; you're missing out on a lot of other communication, a result to which you are also entitled 

 

Admittedly, my original comment was said somewhat tongue in cheek!

[MichaelLAX]

There is a person, let's call him Person A, that I enjoy communicating with at the west end of the San Fernando Valley about 15 miles due west of me.

He is in the shadow of the usual repeaters that would be available to us, so we need to communicate Simplex.

But 5 watts will not do it, so I need a channel that will allow me to use my 18 watt High setting.

Of the choices between 15 and 22, Channel 20 is our best choice, as none of the major repeaters available on 675 can be heard in the West Valley.

There is another person, Person B, who lives near San Diego, 110 miles away to my southeast and I can use the Santiago Peak 675 repeater on Channel 28 to communicate with him.

I cannot communicate with Person A on Channel 28 and I cannot communicate with Person B on Channel 20.

There is no way I can be convinced that GMRS only has 22 channels available for our use; because in reality it has 30!

[BoxCar]

Paired frequencies act as if it were a single channel. That's what paired means and repeater channels are PAIRED.

[gortex2]

I'm baffled by the amount of folks who think they want to re-write the rules and channels to benefit them. Until a few years ago we had 8 repeater splits and thats it. For folks above line A they lost 2 off the bat. If your talking simplex use a channel not in a repeater. Its simple. 

[MichaelLAX]

With all due respect to those forum dwellers that love to debate endlessly: "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin"

I'll accept the FCC as the best source for my position that there are 30 GMRS channels:

Q.E.D.

FCC - General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS)

This is my last word on this subject in this thread!

[OffRoaderX]

8 hours ago, MichaelLAX said:

With all due respect to those forum dwellers that love to debate endlessly: "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin"I'll accept the FCC as the best source for my position that there are 30 GMRS channels..

I approve this comment... Just, without the due-respect part..

[JB007Rules]

On 6/18/2021 at 10:29 AM, JeepCrawler98 said:

Using another repeater falls under the cooperative use clause and restrictions by the owner fall under 'individual licensee duties' of 47 CFR §95.1705:
 

Repeaters are still classified as 'stations.' This section is why many repeater owners require permission, as they're technically required to keep a list of control stations.

Key takeaways:

"Shall determine specifically which individuals, including family members, are allowed to operate (i.e., exercise operational control over) its GMRS station(s)"

(2) May allow any person to use (i.e., benefit from the operation of) its GMRS repeater, or alternatively, may limit the use of its GMRS repeater to specific persons;

(3) May disallow the use of its GMRS repeater by specific persons as may be necessary to carry out its responsibilities under this section.

"Specifically" in that first paragraph implies that a repeater's licensee must specify who you allow to act as a control station (which is any station using a repeater) over your GMRS station (in this case a repeater). This pretty much means that you have a duty as a repeater owner to keep a list of users to be compliant with this rule.

This is aside from helping to tune out the noise caused by people who take others' hard work for granted and cause trouble.

I don't think anyone stumbling onto a GMRS repeater is breaking the rules as a control station since it's hard to post a repeater as locked down in a matter fitting public notice; but the repeater owner does have a legal burden to keep track of you as a permitted user which users need to be aware of and thus should notify repeater owners of their intent. Of course, per the above, they can tell you to get off their equipment too and it's entirely within their rights to do so.

In practice; is this ever enforced and does the FCC care? I doubt it - but it is in the rules.

I wish I could like this post more than once... This PERFECTLY sums up my verbiage and writing from the from my post from September 28th, 2020 on page 3... Literally I've read through this half a dozen times and wrote down key points before going live on my tower site.  I was going to go into this in my first post from last year but I thought it might have been off-topic but you can see now clearly it's *NOT* off topic.

I wanted to thank you for writing this and leaving this post here, it's VERY good and I hope others actually read through the entire Part 95 thing as well.

[kevsh]

On 6/18/2021 at 7:31 AM, SkylinesSuck said:

As a matter of decency, yes. Just know that it's not the law or anything.  If you put your listed or even unlisted repeater out there and somebody finds it and starts using it without permission (roger beeps and all), they aren't breaking any laws.  If they comply with all applicable regulations, don't expect the FCC to do anything but laugh at you over the phone when you call in to report somebody using your repeater without your permission.  Nobody owns any frequency on GMRS and if you put your equipment on the air, be prepared for anybody and everybody to use it, because they can.  Is it rude?  Yes.  I don't want people doing it, but they can.

Actually nobody owns any frequencies is true, but a repeater is a system. If you have a closed access repeater using a form of codes to activate other than ctcss or DCS, and some one figures out the access code it dont give that user the right to use. If you really want to operate on GMRS without a repeater and get distance. I suggest is get a pair of yagi's cophased and and 50watts. Their is no erp limits on the GMRS repeater output channels. At least it does not specifically state it. 

[MichaelLAX]

[deleted by poster]

[DDinMCMI]

Think of it this way.  Would you allow someone to pick up your radio and use it without your permission?  GMRS repeaters are personally-owned radios.  When you access a repeater you a in effect using equipment that belongs to someone else.  They have the right to determine who can use their radio.  The airwaves are public.  The equipment is not.

Related to that is the issue of liability.  As repeater owners are themselves licensed GMRS operators, they are legally responsible for any transmissions utilizing their license.  That includes any traffic retransmitted through their repeater equipment.  Should an outside operator violate FCC rules or operate unlicensed through a repeater, the FCC can hold the repeater operator liable and subject to penalty.  Basically you are using someone else's license when you access their repeater.  They have the right and responsibility to protect their license and insure that everything that comes out of their radio is legal and above-board.

As far as the use of GMRS, I agree that it is for the most part not a hobby-based medium in the vein of Ham radio, although that may change somewhat as GMRS gains more popularity.  The evolution of GMRS clubs, repeater nets and repeaters in largely-populated areas has lent itself to more general social traffic among radio enthusiasts.  I doubt GMRS will ever reach the hobby aspect of Ham just because of the technical limitations, but I could see more hobbyist use as interest and network infrastructure grows. 

[BoxCar]

1 hour ago, DDinMCMI said:

Related to that is the issue of liability.  As repeater owners are themselves licensed GMRS operators, they are legally responsible for any transmissions utilizing their license.  That includes any traffic retransmitted through their repeater equipment.  Should an outside operator violate FCC rules or operate unlicensed through a repeater, the FCC can hold the repeater operator liable and subject to penalty.  Basically you are using someone else's license when you access their repeater.  They have the right and responsibility to protect their license and insure that everything that comes out of their radio is legal and above-board.

This is untrue. A repeater owner is not responsible for any traffic carried through the repeater as the repeater has no control over the traffc. The responsibility lies solely with the traffic originator. The repeater owner would be responsible only if  they originated the improper transmission in the first place.

[DDinMCMI]

According to FCC Rule Part 95.1705:

(b) Individual licensee responsibility. The holder of an individual license to operate GMRS stations is responsible at all times for the proper operation of the stations in compliance with all applicable rules in this part.

(d) Individual licensee duties. The holder of an individual license:

(1) Shall determine specifically which individuals, including family members, are allowed to operate (i.e., exercise operational control over) its GMRS station(s) (see paragraph (c) of this section);

(2) May allow any person to use (i.e., benefit from the operation of) its GMRS repeater, or alternatively, may limit the use of its GMRS repeater to specific persons;

(3) May disallow the use of its GMRS repeater by specific persons as may be necessary to carry out its responsibilities under this section.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-95/subpart-E/section-95.1705

That would suggest to me that a repeater operator is in at least part responsible for maintaining legal use of the repeater.  While it say the operator "may" disallow use of the repeater by specific persons, it references that this may be necessary in order to carry out the responsibilities of the repeater licensee, which would be the same responsibilities applied to any individual operator.  Operators do have control over traffic on their repeaters via DCS and CTCSS access.  Granted it's not foolproof, and there's always a possibility of something slipping through the cracks.  I'm guessing the FCC would take that into account provided the repeater operator shows due diligence to the best of their ability.