Show me any legal GMRS radios,there are none.

[WRFS771]

There are no legal GMRS radios on the market if they have 22 channels. Why?

 

Channel 8-14 are dedicated FRS channels and transmit power on those channels is .5 watts.

Only blister packs meet the power with fixed antenna.

But the blister packs are illegal if they transmit on channels above 14

 

Baofeng radios like the UV5R

And 888s are also illegal to transmit on GMRS

if a GMRS users transmission 8-14 they are breaking the stupid rules because those radios transmit on low at 1 watt and dont have fixed antennas.

The same with all Amateur radio equipment.

The FCC has made mess by keeping FRS.

Too many illegal users

GMRS has the potential to be a great secondary communication network for people that dont have reliable Cell coverage.

The FCC when they approve a cell tower and a cell provider a license, require them to install and maintain a GMRS repeater.

 

That makes it possible for nation wide radio communications with even a 5 watt radio.

 

The .5 fixed antenna users can pay a $5 GMRS annual fee. No repeater use

End the FRS frequencies.

[Werdna]

I'm not sure about your overall point, but this in particular is not correct:

 

Baofeng radios like the UV5R
And 888s are legal to transmit on GMRS

 

GMRS radios are supposed to have certification from the FCC that they are compliant with Part 95 of the rules. To my knowledge, only a couple of the Baofeng models have any sort of type certification.

[Lscott]

There are no legal GMRS radios on the market if they have 22 channels. Why?

 

Channel 8-14 are dedicated FRS channels and transmit power on those channels is .5 watts.

Only blister packs meet the power with fixed antenna.

But the blister packs are illegal if they transmit on channels above 14

 

Baofeng radios like the UV5R

And 888s are legal to transmit on GMRS

But if a GMRS users transmission 8-14 they are breaking the stupid rules because those radios transmit on low at 1 watt and dont have fixed antennas.

The same with all Amateur radio equipment.

The FCC has made mess by keeping FRS.

Too many illegal users

GMRS has the potential to be a great secondary communication network for people that dont have reliable Cell coverage.

The FCC when they approve a cell tower and a cell provider a license, require them to install and maintain a GMRS repeater.

 

That makes it possible for nation wide radio communications with even a 5 watt radio.

 

The .5 fixed antenna users can pay a $5 GMRS annual fee. No repeater use

End the FRS frequencies.

The rules were changed in 2017 and became effective in 2018 for all of the Part 95 services. All previous combo FRS/GMRS radios are now classified as FRS radios.

 

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2017-08-29/pdf/2017-17395.pdf

 

This site has a good summary of the new frequency and power limits.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Mobile_Radio_Service

 

The Baofeng UV5R, and variants, don't have the required Part 95 certification from the FCC and thus are technically illegal to use for GMRS. However people use them as such since they're cheap. Is the FCC busting people for using them? Maybe not, but you are playing a game of twisting the dragon's tail so if you get flamed you had fair warning.

[WRAK968]

"The FCC when they approve a cell tower and a cell provider a license, require them to install and maintain a GMRS repeater." Would never every happen. I remember a group of hams who said the same thing about ham radio repeaters to help with RACES/ARES/Skywarn. If cell companies and the FCC weren't willing to work with emergency communications groups (Who by the way, often help those company's by setting up portable cell repeaters) they sure as heck wouldn't want to pay for and maintain GMRS repeaters that could be used by anyone, anywhere, anytime, while being liable for any issues that could come from such operations. The only way they would allow it would be if it was a pay-to-use system which is not allowed by FCC rules.

[JohnE]

put in wrong post

[Ian]

"The FCC when they approve a cell tower and a cell provider a license, require them to install and maintain a GMRS repeater." Would never every happen. I remember a group of hams who said the same thing about ham radio repeaters to help with RACES/ARES/Skywarn. If cell companies and the FCC weren't willing to work with emergency communications groups (Who by the way, often help those company's by setting up portable cell repeaters) they sure as heck wouldn't want to pay for and maintain GMRS repeaters that could be used by anyone, anywhere, anytime, while being liable for any issues that could come from such operations. The only way they would allow it would be if it was a pay-to-use system which is not allowed by FCC rules.

We'd have to rename it something like "guaranteed minimum radio service."  :-P

 

I've had the same fantasy, but I'm not going to get emotionally involved without a path to agitating for the cause.

 

Edit:  Anonymous delivers, and so do I:  https://www.retevis.com/handheld-gmrs-two-way-radio-rt76

[mire]

There are no legal GMRS radios on the market if they have 22 channels. Why?

I know I’m late to the party, but this is wrong.

 

 

Assuming you’re not counting the repeater pairs as separate channels, the Motorola MR-355R (FCC ID K7GMRCEE), as well as the MR-356R, MS-350R, MS-355R, and Liberty 500 were all 95A (legacy) radios which remain classed as GMRS radios rather than FRS radios due to their repeater capabilities. I have eight of those, so, I know they exist.

 

Channel 8-14 are dedicated FRS channels and transmit power on those channels is .5 watts.

Only blister packs meet the power with fixed antenna.

But the blister packs are illegal if they transmit on channels above 14

The power output limitations are the same for both services, but I’ve never seen anything saying someone operating on those channels under GMRS rules can’t use a 95A or 95E radio with a detachable antenna on them. The fixed antenna requirement is a 95B stipulation. Re: FRS users transmitting above channel 14, that information is outdated as of 2017 (I don’t remember which month). The FCC should never have certified these 22 channel “hybrid” radios in the first place, and it should always have been the law that FRS radios can not operate on any other service. Unfortunately, hindsight is always 20/20… foresight almost never is.

 

Baofeng radios like the UV5R

And 888s are legal to transmit on GMRS

Not really, on both counts. There was a time when some UV-5Rs had Part 90, but I feel like that time has passed. The two I own have the FCC ID of 2AJGM-UV5R, which only shows Part 15 certification for the band splits it’s capable of, meaning that - outside of Part 97 use (which doesn’t require certified equipment) - these are only legal for scanning and receiving. They most certainly are not legal for use on GMRS, MURS, or LMRS.

 

The BF-888S does have Part 90 (and a caveat here… in order for that to be binding, the FCC ID has to be present on the radio before it’s exported… if you’re planning on buying such radios for GMRS, you’re better off to get the GT-1 - same radio, different case - from “The BaoFeng Store on Amazon… those do have the FCC ID, whereas most BF-888S radios I’ve encountered do not). The use of Part 90 (LMR) radios on GMRS and MURS isn’t actually legal… it’s a matter of playing fast and loose with the law but with the intention of remaining in the spirit of the law even if not the letter of it. And this was brought about by a complete lack of viable options for GMRS and MURS until fairly recently. Not to mention I’ve never seen a 95A or 95E repeater. The FCC has acknowledged the practice and have left it alone, but they haven’t actually given their blessing to it.

 

But if a GMRS users transmission 8-14 they are breaking the stupid rules because those radios transmit on low at 1 watt and dont have fixed antennas.

I haven’t bench tested any of the 95E radios from Midland, Wouxun, or B-Tech, so I don’t know what their transmission power on those frequencies is, The fixed antenna, I’ve addressed… as licensed GMRS users, we transmit under 95E rules, which restricts us to the same power output, but the fixed antenna requirement is a part of 95B.

 

The same with all Amateur radio equipment.

Well, yes… the use of Part 97 or non-certified radios anything outside of Part 97 is illegal. This isn’t news except to those with no knowledge of two-way radio whatsoever who suddenly see these cheap BaoFeng, Retevis, Arcshell, etc. radios on Amazon and think they’d be great to just shoot the breeze on with whoever, or “Cletus and the boys of the 3 percenters all gots FengBaos, so I needs one too”. And if they actually do inquire on Amazon and ask a question about their legally, they get answered either by a bunch of equally ignorant bozos, or some seller’s PR person in China who knows absolutely —— all about FCC law and frequency allocations in the US.

 

The FCC has made mess by keeping FRS.

They made a mess by comingling it with GMRS. They made a mess by not having the foresight to anticipate what would happen by approving these ‘hybrid’ radios. Personally, I feel that, if they wanted such a service so badly, they should’ve adopted the European PMR-446 standard. Sure, the hams would throw a fit, but they get entire bands to operate on… they’re much more readily able to cope than GMRS, which is restricted to 22 frequencies, and lost exclusivity on eight of them to unlicensed squatters.

[WRFS771]

I posted the topic when I was new to GMRS

Commercial radios can be used on GMRS

The prices are not cheap,making I harder for families. An Amateur radio licence is free , the $15 fee goes to the radio clubs not to te FCC.

We pay $70 to the FCC and get less and we have more restrictions.

Amateur radio can make their own radios

CB has 40 channels and no licence.

NO licence required.

Morse code can be restricted by privately owned repeaters on gmrs.

$70 is a taxation, gmrs radios with repeater use should be less.

A UV5R is legal for Amateur radio use, well GMRS users paid a tax for use.

Staying in your allowed frequencies is all that should matter for transmitting.

I'm both an Amateur licence holder and GMRS licence holder. Meaning I have to carry 2 radios when 1 can do the job

[WRFS771]

Btech GMRS V1 4 watt on

70cm GMRS, you need a tactical antenna

I belong the nations largest GMRS repeater network. The radio and most legal GMRS radios can't hold 14 or more repeaters in memory

Btech GMRS 50x1

50watts but also limited

In GMRS memory.

Btech makes this same radio for Amateur

They can save and program 200+ repeaters

The GMRS version restricts you to about 8 transmit repeaters but has the memory to listen to over 200+

 

That is the example

GMRS pays $70 tax and get less and higher radio prices that do less in an emergency.

 

Amateur pay $0 in tax to th FCC

Any frequency I legal in an emergency

 

The same for a GMRS user or a radio owner that just listens.

Why pay a fee to be less prepared with less capabilities on GMRS radios

[mbrun]

The Wouxun KG-805G, of which I own 2, has 128 memories for storing your choice of GMRS repeater pairs and squelch codes. Each memory can be custom named as well.

 

The radio has full legal access to all 22 GMRS simplex channels plus the 8 main GMRS repeater input channels.

 

Wouxun also has a new one expected to be released in October. A web search will turn it up. It is the KG-UV9G, a GMRS specific version of their KG-UV9D amateur radio.

 

Michael

WRHS965

 

....The radio and most legal GMRS radios can't hold 14 or more repeaters in memory

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[WRFS771]

Very cool thanks for sharing

At the time BTech USA and commercial radios seemed to be the only choice.

I'm glad to hear this radio will allow programming of more than 8 repeater frequencies.

Still, the price is price is a factor when you might need a radio for all family members. $400 for a family of 5 plus any that might be in the hands of younger users makes it a hefty investment.

Have you seen any mobile or base stations with the added repeater abilities?

 

The Wouxun KG-805G, of which I own 2, has 128 memories for storing your choice of GMRS repeater pairs and squelch codes. Each memory can be custom named as well.

 

The radio has full legal access to all 22 GMRS simplex channels plus the 8 main GMRS repeater input channels.

 

Wouxun also has a new one expected to be released in October. A web search will turn it up. It is the KG-UV9G, a GMRS specific version of their KG-UV9D amateur radio.

 

Michael

WRHS965

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[WRFS771]

I read the stats

It says 8 repeater channels

Can you add more than the 8 with the 5k offset?

I know it says 128 memory

But the memory channels with most GMRS radios are for

Recieve only.

Plus this is only a 70cm radio

Gmrs 1-8 is shared with FRS

, FRS o. Those are allowed 2 watts.. 9-14 half watt.

Can this radio transmit at half watt on those or just recieve?

Again, we are paying a tax.

The reason for families having radios is for fun and emergency use.

The law is clear, any channel can be used to transmit in a real world emergency, so why limit GMRS users equipment? We are the only ones paying the government for public use.

Our equipment should have the same capabilities as

Amateur radios.

Your licence should be what decides frequencies you have access to to use openly

In an emergency, you dont want to be limited to only GMRS or FRS

Especially is remote areas.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I hold both Amateur and GMRS licences

GMRS allows VOIP use to be linked. Our GMRS repeater network has that option.

Again, its another peice of equipment. For Amateur that's fine, it's a hobby

For families is preparedness and cost is a factor

A cellphone, RF radio if cell service goes down.

DMR should not be limited to Amateur radio.

DMR should have its place in GMRS as well.

Again. Amateur can listen but must have a GMRS licence to transmit and vice versa .

 

Dont limit people. In an emergency you are trying to make a contact

[WRFS771]

Stats on the radio

Wouxun KG-805G Features

22 GMRS Channels

8 GMRS Repeater Channels

Repeater Capable

5 Watts Transmit Power

Li-Ion Battery Pack

Rechargeable Battery Included

Battery Charger

PC Programming Support

Add/Remove Channels (via software)

Supports 128 Channles (via software)

FM Radio

Alarm Feature

Channel Scan

Busy Channel Lockout

155 CTCSS/DCS Tones

Backlit LCD Display

Backlit Keys

Battery Meter

Low Battery Alert

Power Saver

Timeout Timer

VOX

Key Lock

Audible Button Beeps

Drop-In Charge Capable

Audio Accessory Connector

IP55 Water Resistant

One Year Manufacturer Warranty

[WRFS771]

My point is, we have

50 states and a few extra US territories.

Every GMRS radio should be repeater programmable ahead of time with 5k + or -

With a memory of at least 180 memory slots

And all 155 CTCSS/DCS Tones

Sone advanced radios scan and identify CTCSS tones

But if you and your family travel, you want the ability to have repeater access as a traveler and why I feel cell providers should assist in providing repeaters on their towers since we pay cell FCC fees and GMRS fcc fees.

Most private repeater network allow travelers to use.

A radio with internet wifi tethering to use with voip would be a good addition to a radio. A single app like Zello on a GMRS radio

Let's family talk all at once over zello if tethered to their cell service or a data sim card added.

Just pick up and talk, no dialing, group or individual conversations.

And the ability to add a GMRS zello channel that also transmits like DMR over RF.

 

Food for thought.

We are the only users that pay for public use.

Businesses pay for a private lease and Amateur only pay a testing fee to radio groups, they dont pay the FCC.

Only GMRS pay for public use and we should get more not less.

CB is free and has 40 channels

MURS is free

FRS is free

Amateur Radio is free

 

Amateur and GMRS are the only public frequencies allowed to use repeaters.

 

Other than cellphones that use repeaters and Frequencies to transmit phone calls over RF and VOIP.

 

Government has the ability to ask cell companies to put

GMRS repeaters on th wir towers because citizens are paying a GMRS tax fee.

Taxation without representation.

[WRFS771]

They do have cellphones with RF radio capabilities 2m and 70cm VHF/UHF , redundant backup if cell service goes down.

Amateur radio users can use them.

GMRS users should be able s well.

To use VOIP on repeaters or not

The same ability to transmit

On 400-470

And program offsets

Maybe cell companies can require Amateur , gmrs , business users and FRS to have access codes in a sim card where a users license is registered on the equipment in use.

An override for emergency RF transmission.

In scan mode when an active frequency is found, the user should be able to transmit on that frequency after entering a pin number that identifies them and their account.

 

Why does the FCC have to complicate things?

The truth is , it's about money

ALCATEL OFFERS GROUP CHAT on their phones like a radio.

It's no different

Our nation has the ability to keep people connected if Cell service or internet goes down. REPEATERS help as long as backup power is available and people would still have simplex after repeaters ran out of power.

[wayoverthere]

I read the stats

It says 8 repeater channels

Can you add more than the 8 with the 5k offset?

I know it says 128 memory

But the memory channels with most GMRS radios are for

Recieve only.

Plus this is only a 70cm radio

Gmrs 1-8 is shared with FRS

, FRS o. Those are allowed 2 watts.. 9-14 half watt.

Can this radio transmit at half watt on those or just recieve?

 

 

so..my use case:  I have 2 repeaters in range on channel 16, with different codes...wanted to program them in separate memory slots.

• i'm still in that frustration zone, having discovered the  gmrs 50x1, as i discovered their implementation of locking it down has it hard coded for transmit on the 1-7, 15-22, and 15r-22r only.  everything above that (and 8-14) is receive only, even if it's in band for gmrs.
• i also have the wouxun; it definitely does transmit on 8-14, though i put the meter on it on those channels.  i want to say i saw someone tested it to be ~1/3 watt, which makes sense with removable antennas and the limit being ERP, not output; this way you shuld be safely under no matter your antenna.
• on the repeater side, the wouxun absolutely CAN add transmittable channels beyond the preloaded 30 for frs/gmrs, as i have it added with my 2 repeaters in separate slots with the appropriate codes.  along with that, i added another set of 15r-22r as "new15r" thru "new22r" to have two sets of slots available when travelling without having to reprogram any of my local repeaters (that have their own memory slots).

[berkinet]

Maybe I am the only one, but I am confused about the purpose of this ongoing rant. Complaints on an online forum are not going to change anything. If you want change, file a Petition for Rulemaking with the FCC. Then get people to support your petition.

 

But, to the points you raise. First, about GMRS radios themselves: Some of your facts are wrong or off target, there is no need for a -5 MHz (not KHz) offset on a GMRS radio. There are only 8 repeater input frequencies defined and those are all 5MHz higher than the 8 defined repeater input frequencies. And, the number of internal memory locations (aka "channels) that a given user needs is very difficult to determine. Probably more than 22, but 180? Zello? Zello works just fine without a GMRS radio at all. But, Zello is an Internet (IP) based app, which means anything that connects to Zello needs an Internet connection. But, you also suggest GMRS should work when away from any cellular infrastructure. So, how is your Zello equipped GMRS radio supposed to connect to Zello when you are in the middle of nowhere? And you complaint about morse code, I really don't know what that is about? We live in a free market economic system. Manufacturers are free to offer products they feel will meet customer and investor needs. You have a choice. And, if you don't like the certified GMRS products you can choose from, there are plenty of other options, from super-cheap CCRs to super-high end Part-90 commercial equipment.

 

Technical questions aside, your major complaint seems to be about licensing fees. Here again I think you are off base. Many services, especially commercial, marine, aviation, LMR, broadcast, common carrier, cellular, etc. have licensing fees and they are often quite expensive. At $7 a year, GMRS is cheap by comparison. Yes, it is more than Amateur. But, Amateur radio is also considered a public service, with a long history and International agreements. And, what difference does it make who you pay a licensing fee to the FCC, the ARRL, a local radio club or whatever? But, even here you are not current. There is now a proposal in the FCC to lower GMRS licensing fees to $50 and add a fee for Amateur radio. The reason? It appears federal law requires fees be set to recover costs. The GMRS fee was bringing in too much money, ham radio was bringing in nothing.

 

You also object to being taxed on your GMRS radio, but have no issue with the FCC requiring a cell phone company to offer a GMRS repeater service on every tower for free. When you consider the equipment and installation costs, plus administration and maintenance costs, are you willing to pay for that every month when Verizon and AT&T raise your bill to cover their costs? There is no free lunch.

 

Ok, you obviously feel strongly about something, otherwise you wouldn't have started this topic and posted 7 follow-up comments. But, it is really hard to understand just what it is you are complaining about and what you think should be done about it. Can you succinctly state the top 5 high level problems you see with GMRS today, the reasons you think those are problems, and 5 proposed solutions.

[mbrun]

All I can say is Wow!

 

Thanks Berkinet for saying what was on my mind.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Lscott]

Personally, I feel that, if they wanted such a service so badly, they should’ve adopted the European PMR-446 standard. Sure, the hams would throw a fit, but they get entire bands to operate on… they’re much more readily able to cope than GMRS, which is restricted to 22 frequencies, and lost exclusivity on eight of them to unlicensed squatters.

That won't go over so well is absolutely right.

 

The Ham bands are ALWAYS being looked at by various groups to use. Hams already lost part of the 1.25 meter band due to UPS wanting it.

 

At the site below look under the section heading "U.S. reallocation" for a brief history lesson.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1.25-meter_band

 

Hams have to constantly watch their bands for illegal CB'ers on the 12M and 10M bands, local TV stations on the old analog channel 2 made 6M almost unusable in those areas, fishing boats - high power Chinese cordless phones among other junk operating illegally on 2M, and on 70cm there is a low power commercial allocation at 433MHz, right in the middle of the band.

 

Hams also had to deal with some companies using parts of 70cm for police drones etc. not to mention the band is shared with the US military. The later was an issue with the military Pave-Paws radars.

 

http://www.arrl.org/news/air-force-pledges-continued-cooperation-with-radio-amateurs-during-cape-cod-radar-upgrades

 

[gortex2]

OK. I think we all agree you dont like GMRS, dont like the rules of GMRS and dont like the FCC. Simple solution go find another service to use. 

[berkinet]

OK. I think we all agree you dont like GMRS, dont like the rules of GMRS and dont like the FCC. Simple solution go find another service to use. 

 

If you are referring to WRFS771's posts, and I assume you are, note he has not logged in since his 09/16 post in this thread.  I personally hope he comes back to perhaps explain the basis for his posts. But, I am guessing that won't happen.

[DanW]

I may have missed this in previous posts, but are the Baofeng radios technically legal on any frequency range?  GMRS? I'm seeing what I think are mixed views on whether they are GMRS legal, or not.  They are popular with 4wd and car clubs, and I know many are using them, sometimes on GMRS frequencies, without a license. I've cautioned them on using them and also about using GMRS frequencies without a license but none seem to care.  So can a licensed GMRS user communicate with them on a GMRS channel legally?  And it looks like they are not technically legal for FRS, partly due to too much power.

 

I guess I'm confused as to why they would be permitted to be sold if they aren't technically legal at least somewhere.  That'd be like an illegal drug being permitted to be sold but not used.  Then again, with the federal government, nothing really surprises me.

 

Maybe legal for licensed HAM operators?

 

I just thought of one use that should be 100% legal.  They receive FM radio! Lol!

[mbrun]

Per the letter of the law (FCC Rules) the only radios permissible for use on GMRS are radios that have the Part 95 certification for GMRS. This is either the current 95e or the older 95a (grandfathered). So, unless the radio model in question has one of those certifications it is not legally permitted.

 

As you read in this forum you will find that many people use higher-cost, higher-quality commercial grade Part 90 radios. Many have stated that there is not a single incident that can be found where the FCC has cited someone for using these higher quality radios. The FCC in one document indicated it was not their intent (when they revised the rules) to exclude the use of Part 90 radios in GMRS, but they have yet to make it officially legal.

 

No, even an licensed amateur is not permitted to legally use a radio in the GRMS that is not type certified. There is no radio made for amateur radio that is legal for use on GMRS, although many can be ‘modified’ to open it up for GMRS, but even then, it is only permissible to be done by and for use by certain individuals.

 

I may have missed this in previous posts, but are the Baofeng radios technically legal on any frequency range? GMRS? I'm seeing what I think are mixed views on whether they are GMRS legal, or not. They are popular with 4wd and car clubs, and I know many are using them, sometimes on GMRS frequencies, without a license. I've cautioned them on using them and also about using GMRS frequencies without a license but none seem to care. So can a licensed GMRS user communicate with them on a GMRS channel legally? And it looks like they are not technically legal for FRS, partly due to too much power.

 

I guess I'm confused as to why they would be permitted to be sold if they aren't technically legal at least somewhere. That'd be like an illegal drug being permitted to be sold but not used. Then again, with the federal government, nothing really surprises me.

 

Maybe legal for licensed HAM operators?

 

I just thought of one use that should be 100% legal. They receive FM radio! Lol!

Michael

WRHS965

KE8PLM

[n4gix]

So can a licensed GMRS user communicate with them on a GMRS channel legally?

No, just as a licensed amateur operator cannot legally communicate with an unlicensed person, neither can a licensed GMRS operator legally communicate with an unlicensed person.

[Lscott]

No, just as a licensed amateur operator cannot legally communicate with an unlicensed person, neither can a licensed GMRS operator legally communicate with an unlicensed person.

So a person using a legal FRS only radio and a licensed GMRS user using a Part 95 certified radio can’t communicate for example? That’s after the FCC changed the frequency assignments so simplex operation was facilitated between the two?