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Whats with repeater users needing permission on GMRS?


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#41 wqss651

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Posted 24 September 2020 - 05:44 PM

I submitted today a topic as a similar question.  I have been licensed in GMRS for a while, on my second call-sign as well.  I own my own repeater.  My issue is people have repeaters up and running, cool..  We all have to share a very limited number of channels, ok...  WHY would you use the known TRAVEL TONE 141.3Hz for a repeater and ask someone email for permission.  If you want someone to ASK to use it, make it a different tone.  Come on...  Common sense people.  The argument about have lots of $ tied up in it are not adequate as even if nobody used it you would still have that tied up in it, AND it wouldn't interfere with those machines allowing access to all.  I have issues with people putting up repeaters on channels and not simply listening to that channel and/or even checking if that same tone is already in use.  I can hit multiple repeaters on the SAME channel and the SAME tone in several places.  If people would simply use a little common sense and decency in GMRS repeater use "that means the owners" and ensure your repeater wont clash with anthers then you have no room to talk or negatively comment on people using a repeater without asking for its use and get off the travel tone.  Not trying to start an argument but I find this very irritating, I have to cut communications short because of this issue and it is easily fixable.



#42 Linus

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Posted 24 September 2020 - 08:46 PM

Perhaps the answer to the main question is this: Asking for permission to use someone’s property is the polite thing to do in a civil society. There are rights and responsibilities in life.
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#43 Linus

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Posted 24 September 2020 - 08:46 PM

— Deleted. Duplicate. —

#44 marcspaz

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Posted 24 September 2020 - 09:02 PM


You hit on a lot if good points... most of which are born from new people who have no idea what they are doing and decided they want a repeater.

How can you expect a new operator to know not to use the travel tone when they never heard of ORI? Not to bash any new people... I'm glad they come here for help and I love helping, but I lost count of new operators that dont know how to program their own radio to use a repeater. Yet, some of these same people stand up a poor-man repeater 3 weeks later.

#45 mire

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Posted 24 September 2020 - 11:29 PM

Regardless, this whole ask for permission thing seems flawed. This isn't a business radio license.

If you wanted to use my car for something, would you just take it? It exactly the same thing, but at the end of the day, those repeaters are privately owned, whether it’s a business license or not, There’s nothing in 95E which states that a repeater owner is obliged to allow unlimited access to the repeater,

You've put up a repeater on a limited shared resource (only 8 pairs) and then expect people to catch you on the air (without knowing your schedule) so they can ask if they can use it?

Funny… I’ve obtained permission on multiple repeaters and networks and never once did it that way.

The only thing this permission thing is doing is feeding an ego.

Okay, you can believe whatever you’d like, and believe that past experiences with squatters and other unauthorized users and the liabilities placed on repeater owners never played into any of it. And maybe there are some instances where you’re right. At the end of the day, it’s their repeater and theirs to choose. And if someone’s response to being told no would be to troll the repeater (such as the BaoFeng on fox example you cited), then you made a much better case for repeaters requiring permission than you did for ORI.

How can you expect a new operator to know not to use the travel tone when they never heard of ORI? Not to bash any new people... I'm glad they come here for help and I love helping, but I lost count of new operators that dont know how to program their own radio to use a repeater. Yet, some of these same people stand up a poor-man repeater 3 weeks later.


My phone (and the phones that most of your new operators will have) possesses more computing power than the first computers which took up and area the size of a hockey rink, plus Internet access to boot. The Information Age is a double edged sword. It made a lot more resources much more readily available to a lot more people, but I also feel like it made people a lot more lazy overall and apt to expecting everything to be dropped into their lap. For me, getting into this was stupid simple. One day, I fired up and old police scanner I had bought back when I was 16. Among others, I had the GMRS frequencies in there. I heard traffic with call signs on 462.600, so I got on Google and searched for “462.600 Denver” and guess where it led me? I listened some more then decided to get my license. I find it just a little difficult to believe that someone can, at the same time, possess enough Internet savvy to go through the process of obtaining an FRN then a GMRS license, yet not be able to use a little basic Google-Fu to find a site such as this one.
2x Kenwood TK-3180
3x Kenwood TK-380
Motorola HT750
Kenwood TK-3700
3x Kenwood TK-350G
Kenwood TK-353G
A whole slew of BaoFeng BF-888S and GT1 radios
Kenwood TK-880
Kenwood TK-890
Kenwood TK-8360

#46 marcspaz

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 12:20 AM

I find it just a little difficult to believe that someone can, at the same time, possess enough Internet savvy to go through the process of obtaining an FRN then a GMRS license, yet not be able to use a little basic Google-Fu to find a site such as this one.

I understand where you are coming from. Let me share one of my favorite sayings, believed to be coined by Albert Einstein...

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.

While I don't know that he said it, the statement is still applicable to humans and our capacity to think. LoL It sounds like you're fortunate and have a knack for this stuff. Maybe the others that don't, Google gave them us.
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#47 mire

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 02:12 AM

I understand where you are coming from. Let me share one of my favorite sayings, believed to be coined by Albert Einstein...

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.

While I don't know that he said it, the statement is still applicable to humans and our capacity to think. LoL It sounds like you're fortunate and have a knack for this stuff. Maybe the others that don't, Google gave them us.


The adage certainly fits. All the same, I don’t think I’m possessed of any particular savvy for it. The FCC site isn’t the easiest to navigate through… certainly not as easy as Google. You have this site, GMRS groups on Facebook, a GMRS topic on Reddit, etc. I don’t think it’s a matter of people being unable, just lazy/unwilling. Makes me think to when you had to seek out print fanzines to keep up with what was going on in the heavy metal scene, because MTV was hung up on glam crap, so you couldn’t count on them. Then came the Internet, and it became much more accessible, and more people got into it, but they never really had the desire to expand on it because it was all just dropped in their lap for them. The same difference between how someone who aspired to be a professional chef and went through the steps to get there will look at all things culinary in a much different manner than I will with my air fryer (that being said, I love my air fryer still). And here we are now. On top of that, you have a bunch of people who remain willfully ignorant, e.g., people who aren’t even licensed but they’ll set up a repeater and try claiming a channel is “reserved” for their use. GMRS has been one of those most abused radio services, and the FCC hasn’t been helpful in trying to mitigate it at all. Makes me wonder if they’re trying to see it done away with.
2x Kenwood TK-3180
3x Kenwood TK-380
Motorola HT750
Kenwood TK-3700
3x Kenwood TK-350G
Kenwood TK-353G
A whole slew of BaoFeng BF-888S and GT1 radios
Kenwood TK-880
Kenwood TK-890
Kenwood TK-8360

#48 berkinet

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 04:02 AM

... one of my favorite sayings, believed to be coined by Albert Einstein...
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
While I don't know that he said it...

 

That saying is attributed to Einstein by author Frederick Perls. But, AFAIK there is no quote or written reference directly from Einstein.  Also, it appears that while Einstein may well have uttered those words, he was certainly not the first person to have made the observation.

 

See: https://skeptics.sta...n-stupidity-and


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#49 WQUQ715

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 09:34 PM

Greetings all.
 
I've been following the GMRS world for a bit and finally got a GMRS license. I've been a ham since 1994 and was a cb'er prior to that. One thing that has struck me really odd about this aspect of the radio hobby is the widespread need for asking for permission before using a repeater.
 
Yes, I know repeaters cost money. I'm currently the trustee of a large footprint ham repeater in Miami. As ham radio hobbyist, we put up repeaters for the benefit of the hobby and all users are welcomed without prior consent. You basically have to work at getting thrown off a ham repeater. Why is common practice on GMRS so... unwelcoming... for lack of better words?


I have been an Amateur for 20 years and had a 70 cm repeater up until lightning took it out. I have 3 GMRS repeaters. I only require permission for one reason. I want to verify a valid license for the user. I've never denied anyone permission to use any of them. I do restrict one of them to Emergency use or roadside assistance because it is an older machine, and keeping traffic on it low to make it last longer.
I only want to know something about my users, and verify a valid license. With the proliferation of the Chinese dual banders, anyone with $40 can access my machines and make up a call. I've seen this happen on amateur repeaters. Call me cautious.
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#50 n4gix

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Posted 27 September 2020 - 03:39 PM

The North Shore Emergency Association (NSEA) in NE Chicagoland has several repeaters on the air. The primary one uses the Travel Tone 141.3 and is open for any traveler to use to ask for assistance, emergencies, and such.

 

But to use the repeater if one is a resident of the Chicago area, one must become a member of NSEA. There are no dues or other expenses, simply a free membership, and a valid, current GMRS license. At one time NSEA had a very hi-profile repeater located at the top of the (then) Hancock building. Unfortunately the owner/operator changed jobs and had to remove the repeater from that truly awesome location. The antenna was at 1,030' AGL.

 

There are at least a dozen other GMRS repeaters in the immediate area, most of which are low-powered, low-profile family only repeaters, and at least five hi-profile, legal limit repeaters with a huge footprint available -- with permission. Each of these require permission from folks who live in the area, but are open for transient use by folks travelling through the area.



#51 JB007Rules

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Posted 28 September 2020 - 05:03 PM

Okay,

I’ll bite here.  I own a repeater (Rugged 575) in Naperville, IL at 250’.  It’s on a commercial site with other UHF and VHF radio systems as well.  Not only have I spent nearly 5 figures setting this up correctly but I monitor it as if it was my baby, cuz, you know, it *IS* my baby.  I built it with no financial help from anyone else.  Of course there was other help I received by LOTS of other commercial repeater owners (Those of you that are reading know who you are) as I’ve come a long way in the last year and some change here.  I have my repeater system set up for several different private family usage cases and I also have a tone for public which I closely monitor as well and others that are out there do use it.

 

As a repeater owner I’m super happy to turn my radio on and hear other people using it.  As a matter of fact just yesterday some other licensed GMRS users were using my repeater and I needed to use it with my wife as I was at the grocery store and I broke in and said, “hang tight guys, I need to talk to my wife for a minute.  I’ll let you know when I’m done”.  Anyways, I flipped to our tone, talked with her about the particulars, then went back to the public side and said “Carry on guys!  Glad to hear you out there using the machine”.

 

That being said, mine is set to “Ask permission” as well because as others have mentioned, I want to know who is using it to verify their license and location because it’s my system and it’s my responsibility to make sure it’s up to par on the commercial shared site.  I have sent an email back to EVERY! SINGLE! PERSON! As well welcoming them with the tones to use it!  I haven’t had the need (yet) to ever reject anyone from using my repeater but I still keep a tab on who has access to it as in my opinion, it’s my responsibility to do so.

 

Not only that, but I have my custom verbiage I send back with every request as well stating that this is a family repeater as well and to aid to traffic on the other PL tone.  Heck, I’ll paste what I send you can see where we are coming from with this:

 

“The tone for my repeater is XXXX (left blank) (N – normal, not inverted).

 

When you key up for the first time please identify yourself using your call sign and call for ROB.  I am regulating who is using my repeater as it is being used for my family as well.

 

I have received an exceeding amount of requests to use my repeater.  Originally this was set up for family only use but seeing as the range is far better than expected, I have opened it up on an as-requested basis to any licensed GMRS operator.  PLEASE NOTE:  ALL TRAFFIC MUST YIELD TO MY FAMILY.  The tone for public use is different than family so if you see your radio lighting up receiving on 462.575 but no audio is coming through on your radio it's because my family is talking so please do not key up until that traffic has cleared.

 

Thanks and I hope to hear you on the air!”

 

 

That being said, sometimes users don’t understand what a multi-table is either so I will say this too:  When you first use a new repeater you should ALWAYS call out for a radio check IMO because you don’t know how that repeater is set up and should NEVER assume anything!  I was in Iowa once and I made contact to the owner on the traveler tone (I was travelling) and he told me that it’s linked to another repeater in California!  NONE of this information was posted on mygmrs.com and upon googling I couldn’t even find it either!!!  It was good to know that I was keying multiple machines too and me and the owner had a nice long 30 minute conversation and he was glad I keyed up and shouted out!

 

To sum up further as a repeater owner:  *MOST*, but not *ALL* repeater owners don’t mind you using their machine I’ve found.  Now I’m in the Midwest mind you, so again, no assumptions would be made for other machines that I’ve never used, but around here most repeater owners are very happy to have you on their machine and it brings a great smile to their face to know that they are serving the public with a reliable communication system and growing the hobby as well!

 

Remember that GMRS isn’t HAM and HAM isn’t GMRS.  A *LOT* of people out there want GMRS for family use under one license and that’s what I’m doing but I’ve decided to open it up to the public as well as the coverage is fairly decent.  I looked at getting a business license and could have easily done it too but I like the idea of being able to chat with my family *AND* other GMRS users so here we are!

 

Thanks!


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#52 marcspaz

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Posted 28 September 2020 - 05:11 PM

 


I wish I could like a post more than once.



#53 wayoverthere

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Posted 28 September 2020 - 06:25 PM

I wish I could like a post more than one.


I agree...very informative post, and even if someone disagrees with HOW things are, that would make it hard to argue they don't understand WHY.

on a side note, I wonder where in CA that repeater is linked to

#54 mbrun

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Posted 29 September 2020 - 06:12 AM

Love it! I recognize it is your money, your property, your right and only with your permission that I and others may use your property. Thank you for sharing the use of YOUR repeater.

Use by my family would be the number one reason I would put up a repeater, if i could afford it. I too would want to share it with others so long as it was not illegally used or abused and remained available for my family use when we needed it.

I was listening (partially heard) to a local net a couple of days when I heard an emotional announcement that the owner of a couple of high-profile repeaters in the area was shutting them down for reasons related to disrespect, inappropriate, improper (illegal?) use of radios and his/her equipment.

Michael
WRSH965

Okay,
I’ll bite here. I own a repeater (Rugged 575) in Naperville, IL at 250’. It’s on a commercial site with other UHF and VHF radio systems as well. Not only have I spent nearly 5 figures setting this up correctly but I monitor it as if it was my baby, cuz, you know, it *IS* my baby. I built it with no financial help from anyone else. Of course there was other help I received by LOTS of other commercial repeater owners (Those of you that are reading know who you are) as I’ve come a long way in the last year and some change here. I have my repeater system set up for several different private family usage cases and I also have a tone for public which I closely monitor as well and others that are out there do use it.

As a repeater owner I’m super happy to turn my radio on and hear other people using it. As a matter of fact just yesterday some other licensed GMRS users were using my repeater and I needed to use it with my wife as I was at the grocery store and I broke in and said, “hang tight guys, I need to talk to my wife for a minute. I’ll let you know when I’m done”. Anyways, I flipped to our tone, talked with her about the particulars, then went back to the public side and said “Carry on guys! Glad to hear you out there using the machine”.

That being said, mine is set to “Ask permission” as well because as others have mentioned, I want to know who is using it to verify their license and location because it’s my system and it’s my responsibility to make sure it’s up to par on the commercial shared site. I have sent an email back to EVERY! SINGLE! PERSON! As well welcoming them with the tones to use it! I haven’t had the need (yet) to ever reject anyone from using my repeater but I still keep a tab on who has access to it as in my opinion, it’s my responsibility to do so.

Not only that, but I have my custom verbiage I send back with every request as well stating that this is a family repeater as well and to aid to traffic on the other PL tone. Heck, I’ll paste what I send you can see where we are coming from with this:

“The tone for my repeater is XXXX (left blank) (N – normal, not inverted).

When you key up for the first time please identify yourself using your call sign and call for ROB. I am regulating who is using my repeater as it is being used for my family as well.

I have received an exceeding amount of requests to use my repeater. Originally this was set up for family only use but seeing as the range is far better than expected, I have opened it up on an as-requested basis to any licensed GMRS operator. PLEASE NOTE: ALL TRAFFIC MUST YIELD TO MY FAMILY. The tone for public use is different than family so if you see your radio lighting up receiving on 462.575 but no audio is coming through on your radio it's because my family is talking so please do not key up until that traffic has cleared.

Thanks and I hope to hear you on the air!”


That being said, sometimes users don’t understand what a multi-table is either so I will say this too: When you first use a new repeater you should ALWAYS call out for a radio check IMO because you don’t know how that repeater is set up and should NEVER assume anything! I was in Iowa once and I made contact to the owner on the traveler tone (I was travelling) and he told me that it’s linked to another repeater in California! NONE of this information was posted on mygmrs.com and upon googling I couldn’t even find it either!!! It was good to know that I was keying multiple machines too and me and the owner had a nice long 30 minute conversation and he was glad I keyed up and shouted out!

To sum up further as a repeater owner: *MOST*, but not *ALL* repeater owners don’t mind you using their machine I’ve found. Now I’m in the Midwest mind you, so again, no assumptions would be made for other machines that I’ve never used, but around here most repeater owners are very happy to have you on their machine and it brings a great smile to their face to know that they are serving the public with a reliable communication system and growing the hobby as well!

Remember that GMRS isn’t HAM and HAM isn’t GMRS. A *LOT* of people out there want GMRS for family use under one license and that’s what I’m doing but I’ve decided to open it up to the public as well as the coverage is fairly decent. I looked at getting a business license and could have easily done it too but I like the idea of being able to chat with my family *AND* other GMRS users so here we are!

Thanks!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Michael

WRHS965

KE8PLM


#55 jec6613

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Posted 29 September 2020 - 11:06 AM

Remember that GMRS isn’t HAM and HAM isn’t GMRS.  A *LOT* of people out there want GMRS for family use under one license and that’s what I’m doing but I’ve decided to open it up to the public as well as the coverage is fairly decent.  I looked at getting a business license and could have easily done it too but I like the idea of being able to chat with my family *AND* other GMRS users so here we are!

 

This is *exactly* why I have GMRS.  There's no way my XYL will get her ham ticket, so I needed something in between to communicate with her.

 

In fact, I have an HT programmed for her to have with her during inclement weather.  Three times this year, we've lost cell service at either home or her work (I WFH), and we've had major road closures and other problems - it starts listening to a small section of the upper 440 band, with a few, "Channels", and transmits on GMRS.  Why?  Because as a ham, I can put up a much more larger antenna and use a lot more than 50W of power to reach her and receive her signal.


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#56 AdmiralCochrane

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 07:21 PM

This is *exactly* why I have GMRS.  There's no way my XYL will get her ham ticket, so I needed something in between to communicate with her.

 

In fact, I have an HT programmed for her to have with her during inclement weather.  Three times this year, we've lost cell service at either home or her work (I WFH), and we've had major road closures and other problems - it starts listening to a small section of the upper 440 band, with a few, "Channels", and transmits on GMRS.  Why?  Because as a ham, I can put up a much more larger antenna and use a lot more than 50W of power to reach her and receive her signal.

Ditto






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